Motion before the Council/Related thoughts

[DoS Archive]

From: waikrboh@aol.com (WaIkrBoh)
Date: 16 Oct 1998 22:39:35 EDT

::remnants of cutting and glueing back together evident in some sections of the letter::

Taken from a letter sent to the Council....

_
The Council of Barons has convened to come to a decision on the title of Overlord since the current holder failed to show up for the challenge, while the challenger did. There is no basis to consider any other duel that may or not have taken place, nor any wagers the contestants offer concerning such hypothetical duel. The only matches that should matter in concerns with who holds the crown must be officially sanctioned and recognized by the DoS
staff.

In light of that, there is absolutely no official basis to strip Huma of his peer wins and right to challenge, as it is Dalamar's forfeit that we are concerned with.

Therefore, I ask the Coordinator to overturn the initial decision reached by the council, and ask for another vote to take place.

-Walker Boh
Baron of the 12th
_

The voting was open. 8 Loyalists voted unresonably. Of the remaining two, one is the overseer, the other voted for a rematch. One renegade voted for a rematch, one has not voted yet, and I abstained (or by Kal's reckoning, voted for a tournament).

Clearly this voting was done basically on Loyalty lines. Of course, I see this as more as a result of the inclinations that led them to be the alignment there are in the first place. One of those is the high place honor takes in their values. The other is somehow a reasoning that one doesn't have to follow the rules when it is deemed appropriate, but strict adherence to the rules when it favors them. While the first value is certainly valid (and
the basis of suggesting that Huma challenge be forced to be rescinded), I find inherent flaws in the second. It does not follow the first value because it is extremely self-serving, and therefore dishonorable. Also, the fact that sometimes we can ignore the rules reeks of dishonor (never mind the practice borders on "illegal").


I know that Huma was in an honor match, and as per his loss, he is bound by honor to rescind his challenge. On that basis alone I do not believe Huma should get a shot at the crown. However, the Council should do one of two things with that bit of information:
1) Ignore it.
2) Use it in determining the punishment for Dal, and the possiblilities of what happens with the crown.
In no case should the council turn from the matter at hand, which is described in (2) above, and turn into a judiciary committee on honor. My current vote takes into account the fact that I feel Huma is unfit for the crown. I cannot punish Huma for Dal's actions, and I cannot let Huma fight for the crown.

This may seem to go back on my argument I sent to the council. I am considering the honor match, which I said in my letter to the council that the Barons cannot do. What I really mean is that the body as a whole cannot pass down judgement on Huma's actions. They may consider it as much as they want, however, in voting.

So how can we not let Huma fight directly for the crown, yet not punish him for his unofficial act? Include him and Dal in a Baron's (double elim) tournament for the crown. Huma would under no circumstance get a bye, and would fight the most senior Baron each round. Dal would always get a bye where appropriate, and fight the least senior Baron each round. (that would most likely include me, unfortunately for me). If Huma can prove his worth in
the tournament with all the odds stacked against him, then maybe he should have the crown. Dal should have a fairly good shot as maintaining his title, since any Loyal can just forfeit his or her match to Dal if that Baron likes. Of course, I doubt that Dal would lose to any of the Barons in a challenge match anyways.

This makes the tournament boil down to two things: Loyal (& partially Renegade) Barons having chances at ending Huma's (and any other Renegade Baron's) chance at the crown, and Renegades trying to rest the crown from Dal. Since the second option makes up a large portion of this, I would propose that all Renegades participating would give up their right to challenge the Overlord this cycle and next (since it seems like it is getting near the end
right now anyways).

Of course, my idea may be completely moot, since it is possible that my motion to strike down the initial decision will be denied. In any case, place think at least a little about what I have written here.

-Walker Boh
Baron of the 12th

[DoS Archive]

From: gnimishrw@aol.com (Gnimish RW)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 14:21:35 EDT

>>I know that Huma was in an honor match, and as per his loss, he is bound by honor to rescind his challenge. On that basis alone I do not believe Huma should get a shot at the crown.<<

::Gnimmy once again scribbles a little note::

Here's the thing about that, sir...Regardless of whether anything Warlord Huma Dragonsbane does is honorable or not, it has nothing to do with the rules. Honor isn't a prerequisite to challenging the Overlord...defeating a set number of your peers is.

And besides...where does this go if we start holding challengers to "Honor" when they're challenging? What, will the Barons' Council start looking at the history of every challenger?

"Oh, sorry Warlord Zeebledorf...it says here you once stole candy from a baby. Your peer wins are therefore forefeit. Have a nice day."

Just my opinion....

-Gnimish Gnimoi
Companion and Love to Cygnet Seraphin,
Lord of House Gnimoi
Emperor of Shylasa
Warlord of the Duel of Swords

[DoS Archive]

From: gimmzak@aol.com (Gimmzak)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 14:46:16 EDT



Now I pose a question to everyone.

What would you all do and say had Jeff lost and then said..."Nah, I'm gonna keep the ring"

Tell me everyone here wouldn't be calling for Jeff to be stripped of his ring.

I stand behind Jeff and what was dueled for. Honor.

Gim

[DoS Archive]

From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 15:32:19 EDT

Tell me everyone here wouldn't be calling for Jeff to be stripped of his ring.

I stand behind Jeff and what was dueled for. Honor. -Gim


Would you cast the vote that forced Jeff to give up his ring, Gimmzak? Could you look your friend in the eyes and tell him to give up his ring? You are part of justice and justice is blind, reverse the tables and tell me you could cast a harsh vote against Jeff as quickly as Huma was called to be punished.

Further more tell me you have *never* gone back on your word to anyone.

I stated it earlier, Huma's honor is a moral decision and this council should not endeavor to enforce morality. All that is required to be overlord is peer wins to issue the challenge and the courage and luck to win on the night of the duel.

As I recall I was scoffed at on this very same board for offering a definition of honor by some of the same people that now seek to force Huma to have honor. Amazing how quickly cries of "Honor is left to every man to decide" change to "We must force everyone to obey my sense of what Honor is" is it not?

Constant,

~Brian Girvin
© G Irvin 1998 all rights reserved

[DoS Archive]

From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 16:03:57 EDT

>>Here's the thing about that, sir...Regardless of whether anything Warlord Huma Dragonsbane does is honorable or not, it has nothing to do with the rules. Honor isn't a prerequisite to challenging the Overlord...defeating a set number of your peers is.

And besides...where does this go if we start holding challengers to "Honor" when they're challenging? What, will the Barons' Council start looking at the history of every challenger?

"Oh, sorry Warlord Zeebledorf...it says here you once stole candy from a baby. Your peer wins are therefore forefeit. Have a nice day."
<<

Gnimish presents valid points here.

On that note, I would like to say the following. To earn and retire a Baron's ring or lose it by losing to a challenger is honorable. What honor is there in winning, not even accepting it, and tossing it at the official present. I care not if he made his intentions known beforehand, so that point is moot.

C.

[DoS Archive]

From: jessetroyn@aol.com (JesseTroyn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 16:21:02 EDT

<< What honor is there in winning, not even accepting it, and tossing it at the official present. I care not if he made his intentions known beforehand, so that point is moot>>


Collie, you dense, worthless, inane piece of trash. You don't like what I did? Shove it. You're opinion doesn't make a lick of difference around here anyway, because you can't back up what you say in the rings. You're all worthless talk and no action, and that's all you'll ever be. Where do you get off equating what I did with this whole damn situation? Please enlighten me as to how it matters at all. Have a nice day.

-JT

[DoS Archive]

From: jessetroyn@aol.com (JesseTroyn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 16:29:11 EDT

::smirks, realizing he forgot something::

<<I care not if he made his intentions known beforehand, so that point is moot>>


Oh, one more thing, hag... The fact that you don't care about something doesn't make it a moot point. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you aren't even remotely close to being that important. Have a nice day.

-JT

[DoS Archive]

From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 16:40:29 EDT

Jesse,

You are such a child.. get a new team to duel with, the kids deserve a better example than your foul mouth.

I named no names Jesse, apparently the shoe pinches too tightly.

Colleen MacLeod-Lasher

[DoS Archive]

From: jessetroyn@aol.com (JesseTroyn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 16:56:52 EDT

<<I named no names Jesse, apparently the shoe pinches too tightly.
>>


Name another example where that happened, and I'll back off, hag. We both know there's no other time somebody did that. You too afraid to stand up for what you said now that somebody isn't fooled by your rhetoric garbage? If so, you're just proving you can't back up anything you say. You're a cowardly, pathetic, old woman, and I use the word "woman" loosely in your case. Have a nice day.

-JT

[DoS Archive]

From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 16:58:03 EDT

>>Please enlighten me as to how it matters at all. Have a nice day.<<

Gladly..

Honor, was the discussion, I found no honor in your actions. I have not spewed names at you. Mine would be far more creative than hag.

I'm not perfect. You have never set foot in the ring with me nor have you even the courage to face your team mate, my daughter, Rhiannon. After my child is born, Jesse. I await you to back up your big mouth. All talk and no action? Meet me in the ring in November, we'll see who is all mouth.

By the way Jesse, it was noted on the official challenge report posted the other evening the you chose to duel with your fists. Odd, I thought this was a test of blade skill.

Laddie, don't even get me started on insults because you don't want what I have to say about you heard or read. It's not fit for poilte company nor the eyes of Rogue who tends this corkboard.

Colleen MacLeod-Lasher

[DoS Archive]

From: jessetroyn@aol.com (JesseTroyn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 17:15:08 EDT

<<Honor, was the discussion, I found no honor in your actions. I have not spewed names at you. Mine would be far more creative than hag.>>

Honor isn't the discussion you daft, tart. It's whether honor can be enforced or not. So again, please tell me what my actions had to do with anything?


<<You have never set foot in the ring with me nor have you even the courage to face your team mate, my daughter, Rhiannon>>

Rhiannon has never asked me for a duel. Nice selective memory, idiot. Maybe you're confusing me with somebody else. I mean, I remember hearing that the Overlord refused to duel her, but I don't look like him, do I? You must not be mistaking me for him.


<<Odd, I thought this was a test of blade skill. >>

Odd how nobody ever knocked BRK for that. I know I ain't him, and I don't wanna be, but he still got away with it. Oh wait, maybe it's because I refuse to kiss you useless butt, Collie. Is that it? You don't like it when people stand up to you. You just want to sit back and insult and argue without having to do anything.


<<. I await you to back up your big mouth. All talk and no action? Meet me in the ring in November, we'll see who is all mouth.>>

But gee, Collie, that duel wouldn't be part of the rules. It would involve honor. And we all know that duels that aren't sanctioned by the rules shouldn't count for anything more than a win, in my case, or a loss, in your case, in the standings. So why should I bother dueling you? You're a pathetic little commoner who's been here for years and can't advance in rank. I made Warlord in about a month. Sorry, toots, but I don't need the win. Maybe if me
beating you would mean you could never step in the Duel of Swords again, then I'd think about it.

Have a nice day, for now.

-JT

[DoS Archive]

From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 18:06:02 EDT

Jesse,

>Rhiannon has never asked me for a duel. Nice selective memory, idiot. Maybe
>you're confusing me with somebody else. I mean, I remember hearing that the
>Overlord refused to duel her, but I don't look like him, do I? You must not
>be mistaking me for him.

Two way street Jesse, you have been open for duels and not accepted a general invitation when she issued it. I might have my differences with Dal, but I could never mistake you for him, his manners are better.


>You don't like it when people stand up to you. You just want to sit back and
>insult and argue without having to do anything.
>

You are a fine one to speak of giving insults, you sniviling son of a harlot.

Why should you bother dueling me? To prove you don't have a streak of yellow up your spine, Jesse, honor or no, standings or no. You and me.. one on one, back that flapping jaw with yer blade or shut yer gob.

Collie

[DoS Archive]

From: xxlucianxx@aol.com (XxLucianxX)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 18:23:11 EDT

~Two way street Jesse, you have been open for duels and not accepted a general invitation when she issued it. ~

::he reads it, rolls his eyes and shrugs, thinking of how many "general invitations" are passed up each evening, thinking to himself that the arguement has gone past petty to ludicrous at this point, he shrugs, walking away muttering something in regards to verbal contract that "A man's word is his bond" .. ::

[DoS Archive]

From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 21:51:50 EDT

I do find a curious mark to the people that Jesse feels to insult, they seem remarkably close to anyone that publicly denounced Dalamar and not retracted their statements.

Is it just me that finds that an odd coincidence? Or perhaps the caviler Mr Tyron has a hidden agenda?


Just a thought,

~Brian
© G Irvin 1998 all rights reserved

[DoS Archive]

From: jakvaltrds@aol.com (Jakvaltrds)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 22:08:10 EDT


Kalamere,

I do thank for the efforts expended to date to moves this discussion forward.
I am certain no one other than a select few have come to a decision without trying to weigh all the facts.
In retrospect, I first let the matter of Humas disregard for his word predjudice me in Dalamars favor. After looking back and thinking the matter through, I did have to retract my first vote as I saw the error in my thinking.
I say the bloody hell with Humas statements after the Lady Helix did call the match forfeited. What he does after we reach a decision is when I will act against or for him.
As to the matter of sanctioning the warlord. No loss of peer wins, and no revoking of his right to challenge. The law of the lands is clear and he did meet his obligation and was present to meet the absent lord, No matter to the reason, twas my vote with Clutch. I did say then I do say now, there is nothing new about this,, he failed to show ,the duel was forfeited. Had I been thinking clearly, there would have been a rematch.
I did a diservice to the warlord that I cannae undo, but I will nae make the same mistake in this matter.
My vote, be it an option or no Is the rematch and no punishment to Huma Dragonbane.
If he does posess any honor, he will forfeit the duel and we will be past this mess.

In finality
Seamus ( I am too old to be doin this,)Mac Donnaugh