From: ducpercy@aol.com (DucPercy)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 19:38:26 EST
>>When Questrion and then House Rising pronounced their goals, it was not primarily becaues of "friendship" but primarily about politics: take over the baronies and oppose Dalamar.
It is amusing how you forget your own words and goals to suit your fancy.<<
I can't speak for Questrion, and I will let others do so if they wish.
As for House Rising, I know something of events connected with that and feel qualified even to call myself an expert on the subject. At no time was it Rising's goal to 'take over the baronies.' Certain members wanted rings, and no one was discouraged from their goals. However, I wish to call attention to your own words for a moment. You use the phrase 'oppose Dalamar.' I believed then, and I believe now, that had we been composed of Loyal Barons,
and supporters of Dal rather than Renegade Barons and his opponents, it would not have mattered how many rings we had. I also believe, should HDT's Barons suddenly turn Renegade, that it wouldn't matter what people knew about HDT's policies and goals. It would have to be a conspiracy.
A pattern seems to be forming. If you support Dalamar, your actions will be explained, excused, forgiven, or outright ignored. If you oppose him, they will be condemned, scorned, submitted to the harshest scrutiny, and always seen in the worst possible light. And it is always the same people doing the excusing on one hand and condemning on the other. Such political mudslinging is to be expected. However, it is rather low when people pretend such
slander is motivated by anything else.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Member of House Dragoon-Talanador
"I have an opinion and I am not afraid to use it."
Challenge to the 7th
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From: ducpercy@aol.com (DucPercy)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 19:42:55 EST
>>Also, when members of my old house (yanno, ol' House L-L) started going for and gaining Rings, the Community all but lynched them. What's the deal here?<<
I could be wrong Sid, but let me ask a question. Purely to satisfy personal curiosity.
When Llewys-Lathadoscia made their rush of challenges, were they not in opposition to the Overlord at the time?
Percy
Date: 16 Jan 1999 19:42:55 EST
>>Also, when members of my old house (yanno, ol' House L-L) started going for and gaining Rings, the Community all but lynched them. What's the deal here?<<
I could be wrong Sid, but let me ask a question. Purely to satisfy personal curiosity.
When Llewys-Lathadoscia made their rush of challenges, were they not in opposition to the Overlord at the time?
Percy
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 19:44:26 EST
>>L-L wanted a majority of the council, as was told to me by a member of that House as it was happening.<<
And here was the only problem with House L-L, which went over into House L, and was one reason why I left. Policies made were not widely held by the members of the House. Not all members of that House wanted a majority in the Council. Some of us were there out of respect and friendship to our fellow Swordbrothers.
~Sid
Date: 16 Jan 1999 19:44:26 EST
>>L-L wanted a majority of the council, as was told to me by a member of that House as it was happening.<<
And here was the only problem with House L-L, which went over into House L, and was one reason why I left. Policies made were not widely held by the members of the House. Not all members of that House wanted a majority in the Council. Some of us were there out of respect and friendship to our fellow Swordbrothers.
~Sid
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From: ducpercy@aol.com (DucPercy)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 19:53:41 EST
>>I daresay that any house that sets itself up with political motivations would be opposed by the populus outright, regardless of whether they support the Overlord or oppose the Overlord.<<
You think so? There is only one way to really test that assumption. Someone would have to set up a dueling house, with stated and known political policies, for the purpose of supporting Dalamar's Overlordship. I don't see this happening anytime soon. So it would appear that said statement would be very difficult indeed to prove. My suggestion is that someone *should* found a house for just such a purpose. It would be interesting to see just how the
populace reacts. I, for one, doubt that the populace as a whole would oppose the house.
Likewise, the populace as a whole never opposed Rising. Indeed, after the initial posts announcing the formation of the house, I received as many private missives of a supportive nature as of an accusatory nature. Any statement that the populace or community opposed Rising would be wildly inaccurate. In fact, the only serious problem the house ever faced was internal.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Date: 16 Jan 1999 19:53:41 EST
>>I daresay that any house that sets itself up with political motivations would be opposed by the populus outright, regardless of whether they support the Overlord or oppose the Overlord.<<
You think so? There is only one way to really test that assumption. Someone would have to set up a dueling house, with stated and known political policies, for the purpose of supporting Dalamar's Overlordship. I don't see this happening anytime soon. So it would appear that said statement would be very difficult indeed to prove. My suggestion is that someone *should* found a house for just such a purpose. It would be interesting to see just how the
populace reacts. I, for one, doubt that the populace as a whole would oppose the house.
Likewise, the populace as a whole never opposed Rising. Indeed, after the initial posts announcing the formation of the house, I received as many private missives of a supportive nature as of an accusatory nature. Any statement that the populace or community opposed Rising would be wildly inaccurate. In fact, the only serious problem the house ever faced was internal.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 20:33:01 EST
Percy...
You write, "You think so? There is only one way to really test that assumption. Someone would have to set up a dueling house, with stated and known political policies, for the purpose of supporting Dalamar's Overlordship. I don't see this happening anytime soon."
While it isn't stated in his House policies, I believe that the entire of House Oakenshield supports Dalamar's Overlordship... though you'd probably have to ask him about that.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon (On vacation.)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 20:33:01 EST
Percy...
You write, "You think so? There is only one way to really test that assumption. Someone would have to set up a dueling house, with stated and known political policies, for the purpose of supporting Dalamar's Overlordship. I don't see this happening anytime soon."
While it isn't stated in his House policies, I believe that the entire of House Oakenshield supports Dalamar's Overlordship... though you'd probably have to ask him about that.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon (On vacation.)
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 20:50:25 EST
>>I could be wrong Sid, but let me ask a question. Purely to satisfy personal curiosity.
When Llewys-Lathadoscia made their rush of challenges, were they not in opposition to the Overlord at the time? <<
Well, many of us were, aye. But that wasn't why we were in the House. My memory isn't very clear on whether or not that was why there was a rush of challenges.
Date: 16 Jan 1999 20:50:25 EST
>>I could be wrong Sid, but let me ask a question. Purely to satisfy personal curiosity.
When Llewys-Lathadoscia made their rush of challenges, were they not in opposition to the Overlord at the time? <<
Well, many of us were, aye. But that wasn't why we were in the House. My memory isn't very clear on whether or not that was why there was a rush of challenges.
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From: ducpercy@aol.com (DucPercy)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:11:49 EST
>>While it isn't stated in his House policies, I believe that the entire of House Oakenshield supports Dalamar's Overlordship... though you'd probably have to ask him about that.<<
I believe, Drake, that you are most likely right on that score. However, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, I don't believe House Oakenshield is a political house either. I believe it began more as a dueling school and evolved into a family of sorts. I would hesitate, therefore, to offer it as evidence to disprove Morgan's claim.
Percy
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:11:49 EST
>>While it isn't stated in his House policies, I believe that the entire of House Oakenshield supports Dalamar's Overlordship... though you'd probably have to ask him about that.<<
I believe, Drake, that you are most likely right on that score. However, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, I don't believe House Oakenshield is a political house either. I believe it began more as a dueling school and evolved into a family of sorts. I would hesitate, therefore, to offer it as evidence to disprove Morgan's claim.
Percy
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From: ducpercy@aol.com (DucPercy)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:31:43 EST
>>Well, many of us were, aye. But that wasn't why we were in the House. My memory isn't very clear on whether or not that was why there was a rush of challenges.<<
It doesn't really matter whether it was really the reason or not. What matters is the perceptions of others. Did other people believe that was the reason for the flurry of challenges? Or at least claim to believe it? Did supporters of the Overlord at the time brand said challenges a 'coup' attempt or a conspiracy? This is the argument I am making. A sudden rush of Loyal Barons, even from the same house, would probably not receive the same attention
from certain quarters as a sudden rush of Renegades.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:31:43 EST
>>Well, many of us were, aye. But that wasn't why we were in the House. My memory isn't very clear on whether or not that was why there was a rush of challenges.<<
It doesn't really matter whether it was really the reason or not. What matters is the perceptions of others. Did other people believe that was the reason for the flurry of challenges? Or at least claim to believe it? Did supporters of the Overlord at the time brand said challenges a 'coup' attempt or a conspiracy? This is the argument I am making. A sudden rush of Loyal Barons, even from the same house, would probably not receive the same attention
from certain quarters as a sudden rush of Renegades.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:32:36 EST
"You think so? There is only one way to really test that assumption."
I did not make an assumption. I made an hypothesis.
In the past whenever there have been a heavy majority of loyal barons, there has always been warlords pressing to change the matter and they have stated quite plainly this as their reason for challenging.
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:32:36 EST
"You think so? There is only one way to really test that assumption."
I did not make an assumption. I made an hypothesis.
In the past whenever there have been a heavy majority of loyal barons, there has always been warlords pressing to change the matter and they have stated quite plainly this as their reason for challenging.
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:34:04 EST
"While it isn't stated in his House policies, I believe that the entire of House Oakenshield supports Dalamar's Overlordship... though you'd probably have to ask him about that."
If it is not house policy, or even the reason for the formulation of the house, it is not politically motivated and that is why the House is not opposed by the populace.
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:34:04 EST
"While it isn't stated in his House policies, I believe that the entire of House Oakenshield supports Dalamar's Overlordship... though you'd probably have to ask him about that."
If it is not house policy, or even the reason for the formulation of the house, it is not politically motivated and that is why the House is not opposed by the populace.
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From: foxxgrrl@aol.com (Foxxgrrl)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:51:34 EST
>And here was the only problem with House L-L, which went over into House L,
>and was one reason why I left. Policies made were not widely held by the
>members of the House. Not all members of that House wanted a majority in the
>Council. Some of us were there out of respect and friendship to our fellow
>Swordbrothers.
A quick thought on why Llewys-Lathadoscia's and Dragoon Talanador's acquiring of rings are viewed differently. Like Percy said, it was widely known that L-L wanted a majority. It was viewed as a political house, with clear political goals. Sid has pointed out that individual members agreed or disagreed as they saw fit (a statement I certainly don't doubt, as everyone should form their own opinion based on what they think, not who they're friends
with). But in the end, Dragoon Talanador has never had any political goals, and has always been known as "a group of friends dueling under the same name." To the public, friendship is seen as key in Dragoon Talanador, politics were seen as key in Llewys-Lathadoscia.
~Ally
Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:51:34 EST
>And here was the only problem with House L-L, which went over into House L,
>and was one reason why I left. Policies made were not widely held by the
>members of the House. Not all members of that House wanted a majority in the
>Council. Some of us were there out of respect and friendship to our fellow
>Swordbrothers.
A quick thought on why Llewys-Lathadoscia's and Dragoon Talanador's acquiring of rings are viewed differently. Like Percy said, it was widely known that L-L wanted a majority. It was viewed as a political house, with clear political goals. Sid has pointed out that individual members agreed or disagreed as they saw fit (a statement I certainly don't doubt, as everyone should form their own opinion based on what they think, not who they're friends
with). But in the end, Dragoon Talanador has never had any political goals, and has always been known as "a group of friends dueling under the same name." To the public, friendship is seen as key in Dragoon Talanador, politics were seen as key in Llewys-Lathadoscia.
~Ally
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From: rlupton@aol.com (RLupton)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 22:04:18 EST
First, some history on this new section...
The House began as House Lathadoscia and was headed by the long-time duelist Baphelocutis est Lathadoscia. It was represented by core members as Sir Galar, Martigan Crow, Genian-san Catenclaw, the Lady Helix Girvin (then not married), others whom I cannot readily recall, and myself.
Baphelocutis was forced on an extended leave and the House basically faded away. Upon his return, he teamed with then Elijah Llewys (formerly Elijah Basia-Uhr or Ecore) to form the House of Llewys-Lathadoscia. This is the era in which the House did become as large as it is currently known, featuring Rix Favre, Sidartha, Ellisa Morgan, the Lady Potion, Helix Girvin, Genian-san Catenclaw, Ford Prefect, Zaradda Eltorch, and varied others including
myself.
With the level of skill found in its members, the community saw a take-over of the rings as possible. The House, like in any organization, wished to be as successful as possible, but there were never plans of entirely taking the upper-ranks. The majority had potential to claim titles, and they tried to achieve their goals.
The House returned to the House of Lathadoscia when Elijah went his own way and I took up its running and organization as its senior member shortly after. I can assure everyone that during the tenure I headed the House, there were no plans of Baronial control, but only plans to continue the philosophy of our House.
Baphelocutis returned and resumed his control, which is when, I believe, the majority of Sid's unagreed upon policies came into effect. It was at this time that I headed the disbanding of the House of Lathadoscia, due to the newly arrived tyrany of its master.
That is the entirity of the story. It is proof, however, that Percival is wholly incorrect on his issue of conspiracy. Why? Very simply, though it is hard to imagine now, Loyals and Renegades were not so firmly trenched in their positions. Stereotypes and classifications have never before been hung on alignments. Dalamar's reign marks the beginning of political parties. There were no "ultra-loyals" who screamed conspiracy.
~Lupton
Date: 16 Jan 1999 22:04:18 EST
First, some history on this new section...
The House began as House Lathadoscia and was headed by the long-time duelist Baphelocutis est Lathadoscia. It was represented by core members as Sir Galar, Martigan Crow, Genian-san Catenclaw, the Lady Helix Girvin (then not married), others whom I cannot readily recall, and myself.
Baphelocutis was forced on an extended leave and the House basically faded away. Upon his return, he teamed with then Elijah Llewys (formerly Elijah Basia-Uhr or Ecore) to form the House of Llewys-Lathadoscia. This is the era in which the House did become as large as it is currently known, featuring Rix Favre, Sidartha, Ellisa Morgan, the Lady Potion, Helix Girvin, Genian-san Catenclaw, Ford Prefect, Zaradda Eltorch, and varied others including
myself.
With the level of skill found in its members, the community saw a take-over of the rings as possible. The House, like in any organization, wished to be as successful as possible, but there were never plans of entirely taking the upper-ranks. The majority had potential to claim titles, and they tried to achieve their goals.
The House returned to the House of Lathadoscia when Elijah went his own way and I took up its running and organization as its senior member shortly after. I can assure everyone that during the tenure I headed the House, there were no plans of Baronial control, but only plans to continue the philosophy of our House.
Baphelocutis returned and resumed his control, which is when, I believe, the majority of Sid's unagreed upon policies came into effect. It was at this time that I headed the disbanding of the House of Lathadoscia, due to the newly arrived tyrany of its master.
That is the entirity of the story. It is proof, however, that Percival is wholly incorrect on his issue of conspiracy. Why? Very simply, though it is hard to imagine now, Loyals and Renegades were not so firmly trenched in their positions. Stereotypes and classifications have never before been hung on alignments. Dalamar's reign marks the beginning of political parties. There were no "ultra-loyals" who screamed conspiracy.
~Lupton
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 22:50:54 EST
>> To the public, friendship is seen as key in Dragoon Talanador, politics were seen as key in Llewys-Lathadoscia.<<
I take exception to this statement. Politics was not the reason the House was created, nor was it the reason why we remained as long as we did. All of the members would have been just as political were we not affiliated with the House.
~Sidartha
Date: 16 Jan 1999 22:50:54 EST
>> To the public, friendship is seen as key in Dragoon Talanador, politics were seen as key in Llewys-Lathadoscia.<<
I take exception to this statement. Politics was not the reason the House was created, nor was it the reason why we remained as long as we did. All of the members would have been just as political were we not affiliated with the House.
~Sidartha
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From: rolandsal@aol.com (Roland Sal)
Date: 16 Jan 1999 23:28:17 EST
"If you support Dalamar, your actions will be explained, excused, forgiven, or outright ignored. If you oppose him, they will be condemned, scorned, submitted to the harshest scrutiny, and always seen in the worst possible light. "
That is the single most bitter grouping of words I have ever seen in my little time here in the arena.
Rol
Date: 16 Jan 1999 23:28:17 EST
"If you support Dalamar, your actions will be explained, excused, forgiven, or outright ignored. If you oppose him, they will be condemned, scorned, submitted to the harshest scrutiny, and always seen in the worst possible light. "
That is the single most bitter grouping of words I have ever seen in my little time here in the arena.
Rol
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From: lorduziel@aol.com (Lord Uziel)
Date: 17 Jan 1999 00:29:59 EST
::frowns a bit::
Well then....I see that intentions are not quite enough these days.
:;shrugs:: Duel well Daelin.....should you win, I will still becoming for it. Should you not...then no matter.
Cheers,
~Adonai Uziel
Date: 17 Jan 1999 00:29:59 EST
::frowns a bit::
Well then....I see that intentions are not quite enough these days.
:;shrugs:: Duel well Daelin.....should you win, I will still becoming for it. Should you not...then no matter.
Cheers,
~Adonai Uziel