From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 08 Feb 1999 23:52:16 EST
Recently, Fandral Kurgan, known as the Bishop, paid a visit to the Arena, his intentions were to pay his respects to Dalamar's Banner.
I was embarrassed for him to see the Arena as it was. During his stay and discussions with myself, he attempted to be his usual polite and respectful self. He was asked a question by a Warlord, and then ignored upon his response:
He was asked for his rank, and he correctly stated himself a commoner.
He was treated as if he was unworthy to speak to.
Is this how we want our Arena seen as?
G'nort Espelande G'neesmacher Dragoon Talanador
Head of House Dragoon Talanador
Thrice Baron of the DoS
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master"
N
A Disappointment
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From: damonblack@aol.com (DamonBlack)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 01:13:34 EST
Ignorance, weapon of danger, tool of rapture.
Arena in decay, perhaps, but unless change it you do, dissapointments and complaints are in vain, or to rake in moral points from peers and students.
~Damon Black
Date: 09 Feb 1999 01:13:34 EST
Ignorance, weapon of danger, tool of rapture.
Arena in decay, perhaps, but unless change it you do, dissapointments and complaints are in vain, or to rake in moral points from peers and students.
~Damon Black
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 05:10:55 EST
I have seen certain contents posted:
-"Unless you've held a ring, your opinion is worthless"
-"Can anyone read what that illiterate warlord said?"
-"You're just a mere commoner"
Of course, these have been paraphrased.
Either way, People display a snobbish demeanor towards lower ranks, so don't be expecting the newer duelers to treat other commoners (despite the fact they are old duelers) with respect.
I don't know if that's how we want the arena to be seen as, but we're surely not discouraging it by letting snobs look down on others due to rank.
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
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|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
Date: 09 Feb 1999 05:10:55 EST
I have seen certain contents posted:
-"Unless you've held a ring, your opinion is worthless"
-"Can anyone read what that illiterate warlord said?"
-"You're just a mere commoner"
Of course, these have been paraphrased.
Either way, People display a snobbish demeanor towards lower ranks, so don't be expecting the newer duelers to treat other commoners (despite the fact they are old duelers) with respect.
I don't know if that's how we want the arena to be seen as, but we're surely not discouraging it by letting snobs look down on others due to rank.
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
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|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 05:49:38 EST
Ahem,
And, expecting the fact someone chooses to call me on my own words, there is a difference.
I do not discredit people for how they spell or what their rank is. I have problems with what people say and do, and how they say and do it.
I treat commoners and barons alike in the room with respect they deserve. I give them respect when they strike me in a duel or when they beat me.
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
Date: 09 Feb 1999 05:49:38 EST
Ahem,
And, expecting the fact someone chooses to call me on my own words, there is a difference.
I do not discredit people for how they spell or what their rank is. I have problems with what people say and do, and how they say and do it.
I treat commoners and barons alike in the room with respect they deserve. I give them respect when they strike me in a duel or when they beat me.
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
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From: lorduziel@aol.com (Lord Uziel)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:16:35 EST
You know this whole thing surprises me not in the least.
And I believe I'm even aware of the idiotic cretin of a Warlord that perpetrated it.
And like Var, I duel and treat all ranks equally, but unlike his blind tolerance to somethings, and his penchant for being kind to animals...I believe that slime is slime is is better left to those who make a living dealing with it.
And unlike Gnort...I'm not so nice as to not name names here. And I am more than sure the *warlord* in question here was the Cretin Tim, who has challenge even this evening for a ring that Veceterix Gavin Favre now wears and bears well, the grand history of the Barons that held that title before him.
Needless to say this sets even more firmly in my mind as evidence that this cretin, and Warlords of his ilk have no business even being Warlords....much less seeking title within this sport. Fandral Kurgan is one of the finest duelers, and warriors that this sport has ever seen. And a duel with him, common or no is a fine thing to have had. And needless to say...just as my disgust could not have sunken any lower for this peasant.....verily...it now
digs itself a hole.
And since this cretin, and warlords of his like will only duel warlords to ensure they get lucky enough to challenge and perchance even get luckier enough to suceed in said challenges. I call upon all worthy Warlords to duel them, yes....duel them. Send these scoundrels back to the ranks they now scorn in their blind quests for title and grandeur that even with ten holdings of a ring would never be theirs.
And if it wasn't the cretin that perpatrated this outrage, which I cannot possibly think how it could not have been. I still make this call. We have the power...and who can stop us from making judgements of this nature as a community? Are there 15 worthy Warlords out there up to the task of a little house cleaning? I would be happy to volunteer myself as the first one. I hope that others will join with me in this...a righteous quest of cleansing.
~Adonai Uziel
~DragonLord of Rhydin
~Warlord and Once Baron of the Seventh
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:16:35 EST
You know this whole thing surprises me not in the least.
And I believe I'm even aware of the idiotic cretin of a Warlord that perpetrated it.
And like Var, I duel and treat all ranks equally, but unlike his blind tolerance to somethings, and his penchant for being kind to animals...I believe that slime is slime is is better left to those who make a living dealing with it.
And unlike Gnort...I'm not so nice as to not name names here. And I am more than sure the *warlord* in question here was the Cretin Tim, who has challenge even this evening for a ring that Veceterix Gavin Favre now wears and bears well, the grand history of the Barons that held that title before him.
Needless to say this sets even more firmly in my mind as evidence that this cretin, and Warlords of his ilk have no business even being Warlords....much less seeking title within this sport. Fandral Kurgan is one of the finest duelers, and warriors that this sport has ever seen. And a duel with him, common or no is a fine thing to have had. And needless to say...just as my disgust could not have sunken any lower for this peasant.....verily...it now
digs itself a hole.
And since this cretin, and warlords of his like will only duel warlords to ensure they get lucky enough to challenge and perchance even get luckier enough to suceed in said challenges. I call upon all worthy Warlords to duel them, yes....duel them. Send these scoundrels back to the ranks they now scorn in their blind quests for title and grandeur that even with ten holdings of a ring would never be theirs.
And if it wasn't the cretin that perpatrated this outrage, which I cannot possibly think how it could not have been. I still make this call. We have the power...and who can stop us from making judgements of this nature as a community? Are there 15 worthy Warlords out there up to the task of a little house cleaning? I would be happy to volunteer myself as the first one. I hope that others will join with me in this...a righteous quest of cleansing.
~Adonai Uziel
~DragonLord of Rhydin
~Warlord and Once Baron of the Seventh
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From: khrystawlf@aol.com (KhrystaWlf)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:17:37 EST
<<Either way, People display a snobbish demeanor towards lower ranks, so don't be expecting the newer duelers to treat other commoners (despite the fact they are old duelers) with respect.>>
I think Var hit the nail right on the head with this one. All too often I've seen many of the older, more experienced duelists of higher rank treat newer and/or lower ranked duelists as though they weren't worth their time.... whether in a duel or in a conversation. I've been saying for a long time that the decay we see around us isn't due to the young blood coming in.... It's due to the horrible way that young
blood gets treated. We expect them to *learn* the sport.... And then this is what we *teach* them....... How can we, honestly, expect more of the young duelists when so many of the older ones are the worst offenders?
Khrys
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:17:37 EST
<<Either way, People display a snobbish demeanor towards lower ranks, so don't be expecting the newer duelers to treat other commoners (despite the fact they are old duelers) with respect.>>
I think Var hit the nail right on the head with this one. All too often I've seen many of the older, more experienced duelists of higher rank treat newer and/or lower ranked duelists as though they weren't worth their time.... whether in a duel or in a conversation. I've been saying for a long time that the decay we see around us isn't due to the young blood coming in.... It's due to the horrible way that young
blood gets treated. We expect them to *learn* the sport.... And then this is what we *teach* them....... How can we, honestly, expect more of the young duelists when so many of the older ones are the worst offenders?
Khrys
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From: lorduziel@aol.com (Lord Uziel)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:43:31 EST
Khrysta,
While your argument was vaild at one time. I really don't think it applies anymore. Many times have I seen warlords duel any rank within the sport. Merely for the joy of dueling. And even so have I done this. Barons and even the Overlord are wont to dance with the lower ranks. Sometimes for fun and out of respect or friendship for the person they are dueling. Other times out of pure lack of availible opponents.
Aye....in a time an age ago, some of the higher ranks had sore opinions of the new. But I believe that has softened highly since such Warlords as Seamus, Huma, Drakewyn, Var, myself and many others have become prominent within this sport. I believe the Arena of today is far more tolerant and accepting of the new dueler than it was in my beginnings. But that of course...is just a personal viewpoint.
What is needed here is not tolerance. Because those that can learn and do respect....are not the issue. Its a small fistful of illegitamate sword swingers that do not care to learn and respect. Because, all of us are beneath their might of course.
Ask us not to look within for the failures that we could not control lass. I can count any number of new dueler that recently arrived here that would not have been so brash as to turn down a duel with Bishop on the mere basis of rank. As I said....I take no responsibility for that which cannot comprehend this place and its histories...and refuse to respect it out of pure ignorance. And nor will I begin to try to consign that guilt to the higher ranks
of this sport. And though your soul is sweet lass, and you have always tried to present the best face. Neither should you. Accepting the blame for cretinous duelers such as this is not our need or duty. And I can find none in the community that I would even think as responsible for them. They are not children to be reared and cherished per se.
Newness is inevitable....all will be so at one time. Ignorance is hereditary...and most that have it...never become anything else.
~Adonai
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:43:31 EST
Khrysta,
While your argument was vaild at one time. I really don't think it applies anymore. Many times have I seen warlords duel any rank within the sport. Merely for the joy of dueling. And even so have I done this. Barons and even the Overlord are wont to dance with the lower ranks. Sometimes for fun and out of respect or friendship for the person they are dueling. Other times out of pure lack of availible opponents.
Aye....in a time an age ago, some of the higher ranks had sore opinions of the new. But I believe that has softened highly since such Warlords as Seamus, Huma, Drakewyn, Var, myself and many others have become prominent within this sport. I believe the Arena of today is far more tolerant and accepting of the new dueler than it was in my beginnings. But that of course...is just a personal viewpoint.
What is needed here is not tolerance. Because those that can learn and do respect....are not the issue. Its a small fistful of illegitamate sword swingers that do not care to learn and respect. Because, all of us are beneath their might of course.
Ask us not to look within for the failures that we could not control lass. I can count any number of new dueler that recently arrived here that would not have been so brash as to turn down a duel with Bishop on the mere basis of rank. As I said....I take no responsibility for that which cannot comprehend this place and its histories...and refuse to respect it out of pure ignorance. And nor will I begin to try to consign that guilt to the higher ranks
of this sport. And though your soul is sweet lass, and you have always tried to present the best face. Neither should you. Accepting the blame for cretinous duelers such as this is not our need or duty. And I can find none in the community that I would even think as responsible for them. They are not children to be reared and cherished per se.
Newness is inevitable....all will be so at one time. Ignorance is hereditary...and most that have it...never become anything else.
~Adonai
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From: jakemheart@aol.com (JakeMHeart)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:46:52 EST
Certainly the warlord which said it was new. Just trying to make a strong appearance. He was trying to be modest like oh so many of us. (Who? Me? Nah...) The thing is... He was just trying to make an impression that he was a very good duelist and didn't want to feel...Inferior. But... I probly would have done the same thing 8 months ago. I was that
idiotic person once too.
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:46:52 EST
Certainly the warlord which said it was new. Just trying to make a strong appearance. He was trying to be modest like oh so many of us. (Who? Me? Nah...) The thing is... He was just trying to make an impression that he was a very good duelist and didn't want to feel...Inferior. But... I probly would have done the same thing 8 months ago. I was that
idiotic person once too.
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From: ducpercy@aol.com (DucPercy)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:52:13 EST
>>I've been saying for a long time that the decay we see around us isn't due to the young blood coming in.... It's due to the horrible way that young
blood gets treated. We expect them to *learn* the sport.... And then this is what we *teach* them....... How can we, honestly, expect more of the young duelists when so many of the older ones are the worst offenders?<<
I would like to really violently either agree or disagree with Khrysta here. It would be nice if it were cut and dried like this. The truth is, it really is not this simple at all. She is partially right, and she is partially wrong. What we really have causing this problem is a cycle, and vicious one at that. Here is how it works.
Three newcomers arrive. One of them is an obnoxious arse who isn't fit to muck out stables. Another is a very decent chap who always tries to learn and to be a good sport. The third is a somewhat impatient, slightly naive fellow who isn't a bad sort at all, but feels frustrated easily. The arse quickly gets himself a bad name, and is treated terribly by everyone. The third fellow, already impatient and frustrated, lashes out and is himself target of
the backlash. He now feels unwanted, unneeded, unhelped, and victimized. He might turn the way of the arse, which only makes his treatment worse.
And the second fellow, you ask? Well, he might not be ruined completely. He has a chance to make it if someone recognizes that he is a decent chap. Or maybe he is such a decent chap that he makes it on his own and is later accepted. So there is hope for him.
But, if you will forgive the sarcasm, there is a song I heard once. "Two out of three ain't bad."
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Date: 09 Feb 1999 07:52:13 EST
>>I've been saying for a long time that the decay we see around us isn't due to the young blood coming in.... It's due to the horrible way that young
blood gets treated. We expect them to *learn* the sport.... And then this is what we *teach* them....... How can we, honestly, expect more of the young duelists when so many of the older ones are the worst offenders?<<
I would like to really violently either agree or disagree with Khrysta here. It would be nice if it were cut and dried like this. The truth is, it really is not this simple at all. She is partially right, and she is partially wrong. What we really have causing this problem is a cycle, and vicious one at that. Here is how it works.
Three newcomers arrive. One of them is an obnoxious arse who isn't fit to muck out stables. Another is a very decent chap who always tries to learn and to be a good sport. The third is a somewhat impatient, slightly naive fellow who isn't a bad sort at all, but feels frustrated easily. The arse quickly gets himself a bad name, and is treated terribly by everyone. The third fellow, already impatient and frustrated, lashes out and is himself target of
the backlash. He now feels unwanted, unneeded, unhelped, and victimized. He might turn the way of the arse, which only makes his treatment worse.
And the second fellow, you ask? Well, he might not be ruined completely. He has a chance to make it if someone recognizes that he is a decent chap. Or maybe he is such a decent chap that he makes it on his own and is later accepted. So there is hope for him.
But, if you will forgive the sarcasm, there is a song I heard once. "Two out of three ain't bad."
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
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From: rolandsal@aol.com (Roland Sal)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 12:57:07 EST
That three newcomers theory isn't a bad one, Percy.
Just I think there are far less good chaps flowing in with a willingness to learn than there are the other two.
Maybe One out of Five?
I've only gotten four duelers with the will to learn the duels patiently to come and study at the Praxeum (not counting children or people who duel only in the Praxeum). Only been turned down once. So that is five possible good chaps for coming in with the will to learn rather than the will to rush in face first.
R
Date: 09 Feb 1999 12:57:07 EST
That three newcomers theory isn't a bad one, Percy.
Just I think there are far less good chaps flowing in with a willingness to learn than there are the other two.
Maybe One out of Five?
I've only gotten four duelers with the will to learn the duels patiently to come and study at the Praxeum (not counting children or people who duel only in the Praxeum). Only been turned down once. So that is five possible good chaps for coming in with the will to learn rather than the will to rush in face first.
R
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 15:09:58 EST
Admittedly, I didn't consider the fact that some aren't eager to learn. However...
Sometimes people can't prevent themselves from learning. For the most part, those who know of Bishop would treat him and welcome him, but there are always some who would wave a hand dismissively at him. That is something that can't be helped. As it will be stated later, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".
There are some, however, who are eager to learn but timid to ask. Thus, if casual information brings up the name "Billy Ray Karnafexx", the interested duelers might feel more confident in inquiring. This refers back to "they can't help learning" above.
Nevertheless, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I know I don't change many minds with my posts, if any at all, but I post nonetheless, for I want to say how I feel. Will your actions make a difference/make the horse drink? All I can say is, "Try and find out".
That said, there are things individuals can do. They can tolerate what's going on, toss their hands and walk away, or do something about it. I have seen many people walk away due to proclaimed degradation of the sport (The ironic part is that the few who do return, return at a time people think is worse than before). What do I do? I tolerate what many refer to as "the bad times" and make sure I show sportsmanship towards the opponents whom are
polite.
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
Date: 09 Feb 1999 15:09:58 EST
Admittedly, I didn't consider the fact that some aren't eager to learn. However...
Sometimes people can't prevent themselves from learning. For the most part, those who know of Bishop would treat him and welcome him, but there are always some who would wave a hand dismissively at him. That is something that can't be helped. As it will be stated later, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".
There are some, however, who are eager to learn but timid to ask. Thus, if casual information brings up the name "Billy Ray Karnafexx", the interested duelers might feel more confident in inquiring. This refers back to "they can't help learning" above.
Nevertheless, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I know I don't change many minds with my posts, if any at all, but I post nonetheless, for I want to say how I feel. Will your actions make a difference/make the horse drink? All I can say is, "Try and find out".
That said, there are things individuals can do. They can tolerate what's going on, toss their hands and walk away, or do something about it. I have seen many people walk away due to proclaimed degradation of the sport (The ironic part is that the few who do return, return at a time people think is worse than before). What do I do? I tolerate what many refer to as "the bad times" and make sure I show sportsmanship towards the opponents whom are
polite.
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 15:12:10 EST
G
Tis thee canst but pity the ignorant sot of a warlord what hae nae the wit to converse with the "commoner", Fandral Kurgan. Tis few what yet walk the realms what hae hae the privilege to sit, share a bit of refreshment and conversation with the old man. Tis certes the old soldier wouldst nae wish to be thought of as a legend, yet tis he be that and more. Tis the Bishop wast nae wont to boast of his accomplishments within the rings, or without, and
far be it from me to embarrass the old soldier by recounting them. Suffice to say, tis if one were to judge others by mere rank, tis few warlords what couldst hold a candle to the skills and accomplishments of that wise and honorable "commoner".
Jona
Date: 09 Feb 1999 15:12:10 EST
G
Tis thee canst but pity the ignorant sot of a warlord what hae nae the wit to converse with the "commoner", Fandral Kurgan. Tis few what yet walk the realms what hae hae the privilege to sit, share a bit of refreshment and conversation with the old man. Tis certes the old soldier wouldst nae wish to be thought of as a legend, yet tis he be that and more. Tis the Bishop wast nae wont to boast of his accomplishments within the rings, or without, and
far be it from me to embarrass the old soldier by recounting them. Suffice to say, tis if one were to judge others by mere rank, tis few warlords what couldst hold a candle to the skills and accomplishments of that wise and honorable "commoner".
Jona
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From: khrystawlf@aol.com (KhrystaWlf)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 15:23:33 EST
Percy~~~
A cycle can be broken if one of the members that is caught in it can see it for what it is, and is willing to do so. The newer duelists can't see the cycle. Most of them haven't been here long enough to even think about a cycle, let alone break one. We, the older duelists, have been here long enough to see the cycle. We are the ones with the ability to break it if we choose.
Khrys
Date: 09 Feb 1999 15:23:33 EST
Percy~~~
A cycle can be broken if one of the members that is caught in it can see it for what it is, and is willing to do so. The newer duelists can't see the cycle. Most of them haven't been here long enough to even think about a cycle, let alone break one. We, the older duelists, have been here long enough to see the cycle. We are the ones with the ability to break it if we choose.
Khrys
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From: ducpercy@aol.com (DucPercy)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 15:42:51 EST
>>We, the older duelists, have been here long enough to see the cycle. We are the ones with the ability to break it if we choose.<<
The problem is, that one arse of the three deserves the be slapped down and given a hard time. This sounds bigoted and rude, but I think that some duelists have benefitted from being shown the consequences of unacceptable behavior. Jake Heartsong for instance. I still won't say he is my best friend or favorite person in the Arena, but he has really improved. Why? Because he found out that being an arse begets people treating him like an arse and
that improvement in his behavior begets improvement in his treatment.
I'm not saying we need to subject all newcomers to the rigorous criticism that Jake was subjected to. Among the newer Warlords there more than a few good apples to go with the bad. Likewise we have several very decent chaps among the lower ranks, some of them relatively new.
I do not believe that everyone can trained the right way. But I will agree that more effort needs to be made to find those who can. The cycle does need to be broken. However, many people here don't have the effort to separate the arses from the decent chaps.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Date: 09 Feb 1999 15:42:51 EST
>>We, the older duelists, have been here long enough to see the cycle. We are the ones with the ability to break it if we choose.<<
The problem is, that one arse of the three deserves the be slapped down and given a hard time. This sounds bigoted and rude, but I think that some duelists have benefitted from being shown the consequences of unacceptable behavior. Jake Heartsong for instance. I still won't say he is my best friend or favorite person in the Arena, but he has really improved. Why? Because he found out that being an arse begets people treating him like an arse and
that improvement in his behavior begets improvement in his treatment.
I'm not saying we need to subject all newcomers to the rigorous criticism that Jake was subjected to. Among the newer Warlords there more than a few good apples to go with the bad. Likewise we have several very decent chaps among the lower ranks, some of them relatively new.
I do not believe that everyone can trained the right way. But I will agree that more effort needs to be made to find those who can. The cycle does need to be broken. However, many people here don't have the effort to separate the arses from the decent chaps.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
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From: sirduel@aol.com (Sir Duel)
Date: 09 Feb 1999 16:00:06 EST
::blinks, being labeled peasant himself::
Err..umm..all good and dandy..wot dos one's social class 'ave tah do wit' it doh, if yeh believe in such a thing? Oi..one's yearly wager and ranking in an unfair system shouldn't label him cretin or not.
Respectfully,
Coron.
Date: 09 Feb 1999 16:00:06 EST
::blinks, being labeled peasant himself::
Err..umm..all good and dandy..wot dos one's social class 'ave tah do wit' it doh, if yeh believe in such a thing? Oi..one's yearly wager and ranking in an unfair system shouldn't label him cretin or not.
Respectfully,
Coron.