From: duelmiyuki@aol.com (DUEL Miyuki)
Date: 29 Apr 2003 00:33:47 EDT
It is my pleasure to announce the results of this evening's Overlord challenge, which I was happily able to officiate. Jaycy Ashleana challenged the OverGoon for the position. Lady Ashleana was fighting under the crimson, black and gold colors of the Golden House, her second was Kheldar Drasnia ((Qzarian3)), and her Lord of Honor was her beloved husband Bane ((Bane0fEvil)). The OverGoon fought under the emblem of Team Fist, his second was Tarl ((TarlCab0t)) and his Lady of Honor was Janella Vallonia ((JadedDeath)).
As the fight was announced the OverGoon chose to exercise his privilege and initiate a Test of Worthiness with Lady Vallonia championing him. At this point, Lady Ashleana asked Harris ((HarrisTheHeckler)) to stand in for her, to which he agreed. Also, I have been asked to note that at this time the Baron of the Ninth Ring ((Cassius Maxim)) declared his position Renegade, and wished me to add that "loyalist warlords who have an issue with this can go to hell".
After this situation was settled, the battle began. At first it looked like Lady Vallonia would take the duel. She took the first point, and though Harris managed to tie things up every other round, she continually took the lead afterward. After Harris had tied it three times, however, he managed to get the better of Lady Vallonia and score two points in as many rounds to secure the win.
((Play by Play:
Harris HC LC HC LC FSS SH HC FCP 5
Janella Th SS Th SS HC Th FSS LC 3))
Harris had won the right for Lady Ashleana to challenge the OverGoon directly, and the duel was promptly begun at this point. The OverGoon took an early and commanding lead, and while in the eighth and ninth rounds Lady Ashleana was only a half point behind, the OverGoon managed to retake the full point lead necessary to secure the win and successfully defend his position.
((Play by Play:
Jaycy Th FLP Dis FDu HC FCP SL Th LC FDis SH Dis 4.5
Goon FLP LC Th FCP Th SH FCP Th HC Dis LP LC 6))
Overlord Challenge Results
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From: karenwilder@aol.com (Karen Wilder)
Date: 29 Apr 2003 04:36:28 EDT
Yet another who fails tae understand what Loyalty means.
My congratulations tae th' Overlord. I regret thet I wasnae able tae attend, my Loyalty tae th' Church comes before all others.
Lady Karen Wilder
Knight-Captain of the Order of the Knights Templar
First Catholic Church of RhyDin
Date: 29 Apr 2003 04:36:28 EDT
Yet another who fails tae understand what Loyalty means.
My congratulations tae th' Overlord. I regret thet I wasnae able tae attend, my Loyalty tae th' Church comes before all others.
Lady Karen Wilder
Knight-Captain of the Order of the Knights Templar
First Catholic Church of RhyDin
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From: cassiusmaxim@aol.com (Cassius Maxim)
Date: 29 Apr 2003 06:18:43 EDT
"Yet another who fails tae understand what Loyalty means."
It was a choice of where my greater loyalties lay: The Overlord, or my Swordsister and my House. I chose my Swordsister and my House.
Karen, I have been here since the first reign of Dalamar Ar'Daumon, the 28th Overlord. Goon is the 53rd. For the mathematically impaired, that means I have seen 24 Overlords in 4 years, 2 of whom reigned for roughly six months. Quite simply, they do not last long.
I've had one Swordsister that whole time.
The shallowness of a great many people within this community once more manifests itself in order to astound me and make me despair. I was sincerely loyal to Goon. I do not offer my loyalty to blindly live through any event, however, and events transpired
on this evening that made it so that I could not offer that loyalty any longer. It's not like I'm the first baron to ever realign.
I cannot ignore that a worthy challenger was tested tonight. Thus far, the Overlord has tested two out of two challengers. When Seamus did this, many of the people who now support Goon wanted his hide. Why the double-standard?
Simply put, if you think that an alignment of loyalty to an Overlord surpasses all other priorities, maybe you need to stop and consider whether or not you take this too seriously.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Date: 29 Apr 2003 06:18:43 EDT
"Yet another who fails tae understand what Loyalty means."
It was a choice of where my greater loyalties lay: The Overlord, or my Swordsister and my House. I chose my Swordsister and my House.
Karen, I have been here since the first reign of Dalamar Ar'Daumon, the 28th Overlord. Goon is the 53rd. For the mathematically impaired, that means I have seen 24 Overlords in 4 years, 2 of whom reigned for roughly six months. Quite simply, they do not last long.
I've had one Swordsister that whole time.
The shallowness of a great many people within this community once more manifests itself in order to astound me and make me despair. I was sincerely loyal to Goon. I do not offer my loyalty to blindly live through any event, however, and events transpired
on this evening that made it so that I could not offer that loyalty any longer. It's not like I'm the first baron to ever realign.
I cannot ignore that a worthy challenger was tested tonight. Thus far, the Overlord has tested two out of two challengers. When Seamus did this, many of the people who now support Goon wanted his hide. Why the double-standard?
Simply put, if you think that an alignment of loyalty to an Overlord surpasses all other priorities, maybe you need to stop and consider whether or not you take this too seriously.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
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From: karenwilder@aol.com (Karen Wilder)
Date: 30 Apr 2003 01:17:44 EDT
When ye profess yer Loyalty, it is forever.
Anything less, an' it's nae true Loyalty.
As I stated elsewhere on this board, tae question th' actions o' one ye show Loyalty too is nae wrong. Tae renounce yer Loyalty shows only thet ye were ne'er truely Loyal tae begin with.
Th' Baroness renounced her Loyalty an' opposed th' will o' th' Overlord. Then she challenged th' Overlord... th' same one she called friend.
I see nae reason at all tae think she should nae have been tested.
Lady Karen Wilder
Knight-Captain of the Order of the Knights Templar
First Catholic Church of Rhy-Din
Date: 30 Apr 2003 01:17:44 EDT
When ye profess yer Loyalty, it is forever.
Anything less, an' it's nae true Loyalty.
As I stated elsewhere on this board, tae question th' actions o' one ye show Loyalty too is nae wrong. Tae renounce yer Loyalty shows only thet ye were ne'er truely Loyal tae begin with.
Th' Baroness renounced her Loyalty an' opposed th' will o' th' Overlord. Then she challenged th' Overlord... th' same one she called friend.
I see nae reason at all tae think she should nae have been tested.
Lady Karen Wilder
Knight-Captain of the Order of the Knights Templar
First Catholic Church of Rhy-Din
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 11 May 2003 16:22:14 EDT
The way I'm seeing it, and the way he worded it, Cas should never be a Loyal Baron again. Unless maybe if Jaycy does get that OL title. But beyond that, I'd say that there's too many things that can cause a couple of Loyal's out there to change their mind about their loyalty at the drop of a hat.
And yes, I know what you think of me now, Cas, so there's no reason to start casting more insults at me here. I'm stating fact that since you've seen 24 Overlords in your time here, your loyalty to any of them would have been quickly turned if the situation presented itself, much as it did here.
G
Date: 11 May 2003 16:22:14 EDT
The way I'm seeing it, and the way he worded it, Cas should never be a Loyal Baron again. Unless maybe if Jaycy does get that OL title. But beyond that, I'd say that there's too many things that can cause a couple of Loyal's out there to change their mind about their loyalty at the drop of a hat.
And yes, I know what you think of me now, Cas, so there's no reason to start casting more insults at me here. I'm stating fact that since you've seen 24 Overlords in your time here, your loyalty to any of them would have been quickly turned if the situation presented itself, much as it did here.
G
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From: cassiusmaxim@aol.com (Cassius Maxim)
Date: 11 May 2003 22:03:48 EDT
"The way I'm seeing it, and the way he worded it, Cas should never be a Loyal
Baron again"
Too bad that's not your choice to make.
"But beyond that, I'd say that there's too many things that can cause a couple
of Loyal's out there to change their mind about their loyalty at the drop of
a hat."
Then, perhaps G'nort, you take it too seriously. One does not swear undying Loyalty to an Overlord forever, no matter what happens. One does not forsake a very close friend, one who you love like a sibling, for an Overlord just because he's popular.
"And yes, I know what you think of me now, Cas, so there's no reason to start
casting more insults at me here"
Does this translate into "Well, let me condemn you now Cas, but don't condemn me back!"? That's what it comes off as.
At least I was polite enough to bring my issues with you into a private missive. Seriously, it takes a lot of audacity to condemn me in public for lack of loyalty, then ask that I not fire back.
And you know damn well why I'm doing this. If you didn't like the Overlord, you'd agree with me too. That's probably the most tragic part of this.
"I'm stating fact that since you've seen 24 Overlords in your time here, your
loyalty to any of them would have been quickly turned if the situation
presented itself, much as it did here."
Oh really? Is that why I turned down a free shot at Avery, G'nort? See, I was strongly Loyal to Avery not because he was popular, but because out of all my time here, maybe four people have been there for me the whole time, and Avery Shiv Blade was one of them. I used to be able to say five, but I guess I can't now.
Incidentally, it seems that his name has been largely forgotten in the basement, and I'm one of the few people to actually keep contact with him. Odd, that.
Goon did something that made me no longer able to be his loyal, G'nort, it's that simple. As for the 24 Overlords, their individual situations are different. Which you know.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Date: 11 May 2003 22:03:48 EDT
"The way I'm seeing it, and the way he worded it, Cas should never be a Loyal
Baron again"
Too bad that's not your choice to make.
"But beyond that, I'd say that there's too many things that can cause a couple
of Loyal's out there to change their mind about their loyalty at the drop of
a hat."
Then, perhaps G'nort, you take it too seriously. One does not swear undying Loyalty to an Overlord forever, no matter what happens. One does not forsake a very close friend, one who you love like a sibling, for an Overlord just because he's popular.
"And yes, I know what you think of me now, Cas, so there's no reason to start
casting more insults at me here"
Does this translate into "Well, let me condemn you now Cas, but don't condemn me back!"? That's what it comes off as.
At least I was polite enough to bring my issues with you into a private missive. Seriously, it takes a lot of audacity to condemn me in public for lack of loyalty, then ask that I not fire back.
And you know damn well why I'm doing this. If you didn't like the Overlord, you'd agree with me too. That's probably the most tragic part of this.
"I'm stating fact that since you've seen 24 Overlords in your time here, your
loyalty to any of them would have been quickly turned if the situation
presented itself, much as it did here."
Oh really? Is that why I turned down a free shot at Avery, G'nort? See, I was strongly Loyal to Avery not because he was popular, but because out of all my time here, maybe four people have been there for me the whole time, and Avery Shiv Blade was one of them. I used to be able to say five, but I guess I can't now.
Incidentally, it seems that his name has been largely forgotten in the basement, and I'm one of the few people to actually keep contact with him. Odd, that.
Goon did something that made me no longer able to be his loyal, G'nort, it's that simple. As for the 24 Overlords, their individual situations are different. Which you know.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 12 May 2003 05:07:07 EDT
>Does this translate into "Well, let me condemn you now Cas, but don't condemn
>me back!"? That's what it comes off as.
No, this was a "No need to clutter the public boards with what we both know what the other thinks" deals. If you want to condemn me, I guess feel free, but it'd be something I already know about. So, if you want everyone else to know, do as you will.
>Oh really? Is that why I turned down a free shot at Avery, G'nort? See, I was
>strongly Loyal to Avery not because he was popular, but because out of all my
>time here, maybe four people have been there for me the whole time, and Avery
>Shiv Blade was one of them. I used to be able to say five, but I guess I
>can't now.
But if the moment arose where your "Sister" challenged Avery, and he had her tested, would we see your loyalty change then, as well?
The point is, your loyalty appears to only last as long as things are going your way. But the moment something arises that you disagree with, you immediately change alignments.
Many, many people have been Barons before you and I have. Many many people have been Loyal to Overlords before you and I. Ourselves, we've been Barons several times, and Loyal ones as well. You can be Loyal to an Overlord, and Still disagree with some of their policies or actions.
Many, many people before either of us have done that. Few change at the drop of an incident they disagree with. Loyalty does *not* mean blind Loyalty. And the last Blind Loyalists were in Dalamars reigns. Even Loyalists then disagreed with him. But they remained Loyal. Happened before Dal, too. After as well.
Overall, it simply appears that your Loyalty is only for when it suits you. Example; Have you tried educating Goon as to why you disagreed with what he did to your "sister"? Or did you just up and change alignment, deciding to issue challenge almost immediately?
I've said what I've come to say. I haven't changed in my opinions or beliefs. Can many others say the same?
>I used to be able to say five, but I guess I can't now.
I'd still be there if you need. I simply question your motives. Friendship, like Loyalty, means you can disagree, even strongly, with another friend.
G
Date: 12 May 2003 05:07:07 EDT
>Does this translate into "Well, let me condemn you now Cas, but don't condemn
>me back!"? That's what it comes off as.
No, this was a "No need to clutter the public boards with what we both know what the other thinks" deals. If you want to condemn me, I guess feel free, but it'd be something I already know about. So, if you want everyone else to know, do as you will.
>Oh really? Is that why I turned down a free shot at Avery, G'nort? See, I was
>strongly Loyal to Avery not because he was popular, but because out of all my
>time here, maybe four people have been there for me the whole time, and Avery
>Shiv Blade was one of them. I used to be able to say five, but I guess I
>can't now.
But if the moment arose where your "Sister" challenged Avery, and he had her tested, would we see your loyalty change then, as well?
The point is, your loyalty appears to only last as long as things are going your way. But the moment something arises that you disagree with, you immediately change alignments.
Many, many people have been Barons before you and I have. Many many people have been Loyal to Overlords before you and I. Ourselves, we've been Barons several times, and Loyal ones as well. You can be Loyal to an Overlord, and Still disagree with some of their policies or actions.
Many, many people before either of us have done that. Few change at the drop of an incident they disagree with. Loyalty does *not* mean blind Loyalty. And the last Blind Loyalists were in Dalamars reigns. Even Loyalists then disagreed with him. But they remained Loyal. Happened before Dal, too. After as well.
Overall, it simply appears that your Loyalty is only for when it suits you. Example; Have you tried educating Goon as to why you disagreed with what he did to your "sister"? Or did you just up and change alignment, deciding to issue challenge almost immediately?
I've said what I've come to say. I haven't changed in my opinions or beliefs. Can many others say the same?
>I used to be able to say five, but I guess I can't now.
I'd still be there if you need. I simply question your motives. Friendship, like Loyalty, means you can disagree, even strongly, with another friend.
G
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From: cassiusmaxim@aol.com (Cassius Maxim)
Date: 12 May 2003 06:30:33 EDT
"But if the moment arose where your "Sister" challenged Avery, and he had her
tested, would we see your loyalty change then, as well?"
That's a very good question, and frankly, I'm very thankful I will never find out the answer.
"The point is, your loyalty appears to only last as long as things are going
your way. But the moment something arises that you disagree with, you
immediately change alignments."
That's an unfair oversimplification. The fact is, there have been several instances when an Overlord I was Loyal to made decisions that I did not agree with. It depends on how strongly I feel about the situation.
As you well know, I am no opponent of the Test of Worthiness in general. I believe that anyone can win on any given day, and the mantle is far too important to risk on pure skill with that knowledge. Besides, skill is not always the end-all and be-all of deciding who makes a good Overlord. I think you'd have to admit that our mutual "friend" Lupton knows which end of the sword is pointy, and I also think I know how you'd react were he to ever win the mantle.
But..I believe the Test should be limited to just that: The elimination of unworthy challengers who somehow gained a shot. That's it. If I know an Overlord is using the Test to be capricious or cowardly, I cannot support him or her. Who decides which challenger is worthy and which isn't? The Overlord does, as their right. But it's my right as a Baron to decide to realign if I disagree strongly enough with who the OL decides is unworthy.
Let's look at a past Overlord that I was Loyal too: Seamus. First, he tested Xeric. Did I disagree? Obviously not, since I was the one who stepped in. Then, he tested Drey. Again, a man who I feel should be tested. But then he tested Rix, who I vehemently felt should not be tested. Still, I stayed silent and kept Loyal. Why? Well, let's compare Goon's record. First, Tass was tested. I did not agree, but I disagreed weakly: Tass is all right, and I wouldn't test him myself, but I don't see him as Overlord material. But then he tested Jaycy, and I felt the same disapproval as I did when Seamus tested Rix. The difference? While both Jaycy and Rix possess my utmost respect, I have no personal bond with Rix, other than being on friendly terms.
But here's the essence of why I am issuing challenge, G'nort: If explained the situation and asked his opinion, Goon wouldn't say that Jaycy was unworthy. Probably not Tass either. While it is his duty to guard the mantle against those who would sully it, he isn't making those decisions: He's letting his friends play.
"Example; Have you tried educating Goon as to why you disagreed with what he
did to your "sister" "
As a few people can attest to, actually I did try.
"I'd still be there if you need. I simply question your motives. Friendship,
like Loyalty, means you can disagree, even strongly, with another friend."
It took me five minutes of contemplation before responding, and I think that maybe some words were spoken in haste. G, I'd like to speak soon, if we can.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Date: 12 May 2003 06:30:33 EDT
"But if the moment arose where your "Sister" challenged Avery, and he had her
tested, would we see your loyalty change then, as well?"
That's a very good question, and frankly, I'm very thankful I will never find out the answer.
"The point is, your loyalty appears to only last as long as things are going
your way. But the moment something arises that you disagree with, you
immediately change alignments."
That's an unfair oversimplification. The fact is, there have been several instances when an Overlord I was Loyal to made decisions that I did not agree with. It depends on how strongly I feel about the situation.
As you well know, I am no opponent of the Test of Worthiness in general. I believe that anyone can win on any given day, and the mantle is far too important to risk on pure skill with that knowledge. Besides, skill is not always the end-all and be-all of deciding who makes a good Overlord. I think you'd have to admit that our mutual "friend" Lupton knows which end of the sword is pointy, and I also think I know how you'd react were he to ever win the mantle.
But..I believe the Test should be limited to just that: The elimination of unworthy challengers who somehow gained a shot. That's it. If I know an Overlord is using the Test to be capricious or cowardly, I cannot support him or her. Who decides which challenger is worthy and which isn't? The Overlord does, as their right. But it's my right as a Baron to decide to realign if I disagree strongly enough with who the OL decides is unworthy.
Let's look at a past Overlord that I was Loyal too: Seamus. First, he tested Xeric. Did I disagree? Obviously not, since I was the one who stepped in. Then, he tested Drey. Again, a man who I feel should be tested. But then he tested Rix, who I vehemently felt should not be tested. Still, I stayed silent and kept Loyal. Why? Well, let's compare Goon's record. First, Tass was tested. I did not agree, but I disagreed weakly: Tass is all right, and I wouldn't test him myself, but I don't see him as Overlord material. But then he tested Jaycy, and I felt the same disapproval as I did when Seamus tested Rix. The difference? While both Jaycy and Rix possess my utmost respect, I have no personal bond with Rix, other than being on friendly terms.
But here's the essence of why I am issuing challenge, G'nort: If explained the situation and asked his opinion, Goon wouldn't say that Jaycy was unworthy. Probably not Tass either. While it is his duty to guard the mantle against those who would sully it, he isn't making those decisions: He's letting his friends play.
"Example; Have you tried educating Goon as to why you disagreed with what he
did to your "sister" "
As a few people can attest to, actually I did try.
"I'd still be there if you need. I simply question your motives. Friendship,
like Loyalty, means you can disagree, even strongly, with another friend."
It took me five minutes of contemplation before responding, and I think that maybe some words were spoken in haste. G, I'd like to speak soon, if we can.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
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From: zur030@aol.com (Zur030)
Date: 14 May 2003 22:35:49 EDT
>But the moment something arises that you disagree with, you immediately
>change alignments.
Loyalty versus standards, Uncle. Fact of the matter is, when I become a baron, if I'm loyal and the Overlord does something that goes against my standards, I will no longer be loyal. There is no one alive whose friendship means so much to me that I will go against my own personal standards. Maybe this isn't the case with Cas. Maybe it is. The fact of the matter is, if something arises that I disagree with, then yes I will change alignments. And I will support those who stand by their beliefs, too.
Hold Fast,
Grayson MacLeod.
Past Holder of IceDancer, Emerald of the Duel of Fists.
Warlord of the Duel of Swords.
Past Keeper of Water.
Date: 14 May 2003 22:35:49 EDT
>But the moment something arises that you disagree with, you immediately
>change alignments.
Loyalty versus standards, Uncle. Fact of the matter is, when I become a baron, if I'm loyal and the Overlord does something that goes against my standards, I will no longer be loyal. There is no one alive whose friendship means so much to me that I will go against my own personal standards. Maybe this isn't the case with Cas. Maybe it is. The fact of the matter is, if something arises that I disagree with, then yes I will change alignments. And I will support those who stand by their beliefs, too.
Hold Fast,
Grayson MacLeod.
Past Holder of IceDancer, Emerald of the Duel of Fists.
Warlord of the Duel of Swords.
Past Keeper of Water.
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From: karenwilder@aol.com (Karen Wilder)
Date: 15 May 2003 21:45:19 EDT
Giving yer Loyalty blindly is what gets ye into situations where th' one ye declare Loyalty to might do somethin' thet goes against yer Standards, Grayson.
If Cassius had declared 'imself Renegade when Jaycy did, out o' Loyalty tae her... then I would nae have had any issues with 'is decision. But 'e did nae. 'e remained Loyal... or claimed tae be Loyal until it were inconvenient anyway.
Lady Karen Wilder
Knight-Captain of the Order of the Knights Templar
First Catholic Church of RhyDin.
Date: 15 May 2003 21:45:19 EDT
Giving yer Loyalty blindly is what gets ye into situations where th' one ye declare Loyalty to might do somethin' thet goes against yer Standards, Grayson.
If Cassius had declared 'imself Renegade when Jaycy did, out o' Loyalty tae her... then I would nae have had any issues with 'is decision. But 'e did nae. 'e remained Loyal... or claimed tae be Loyal until it were inconvenient anyway.
Lady Karen Wilder
Knight-Captain of the Order of the Knights Templar
First Catholic Church of RhyDin.