From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 11:51:17 EDT
Master Girvin.
Ast I recall it, thine definition of "Honor" came from a dictionary ast did thine definition of "Loyalty". The Baron Jeffrey Oakenshield's definition of Honor and Loyalty comes from within himself, for tis where Honor and Loyalty, if one possesses it, dost reside.
Jona.
Loyalty? No. Neutrality? Very much so.
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From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 12:53:06 EDT
Jonalyn,
I could not have asked for a more stunning example of exactly how two faced this argument is about the council enforcing honor than your own words:
Ast I recall it, thine definition of "Honor" came from a dictionary ast did thine definition of "Loyalty". The Baron Jeffrey Oakenshield's definition of Honor and Loyalty comes from within himself, for tis where Honor and Loyalty, if one possesses it, dost reside.
So Madame, if honor is to come from within, why is the council forcing on someone from without? Is this not two ideas in direct conflict? Perhaps Huma felt his actions *were* honorable, so why if Jeff's or Kalamere's, or Dalamar's definition of honor any more important than anyone else's?
I for one do not change or alter my thoughts based on who argues what. A wise person is capable of making up their own mind.
Constant,
~Brian Girvin
Date: 19 Oct 1998 12:53:06 EDT
Jonalyn,
I could not have asked for a more stunning example of exactly how two faced this argument is about the council enforcing honor than your own words:
Ast I recall it, thine definition of "Honor" came from a dictionary ast did thine definition of "Loyalty". The Baron Jeffrey Oakenshield's definition of Honor and Loyalty comes from within himself, for tis where Honor and Loyalty, if one possesses it, dost reside.
So Madame, if honor is to come from within, why is the council forcing on someone from without? Is this not two ideas in direct conflict? Perhaps Huma felt his actions *were* honorable, so why if Jeff's or Kalamere's, or Dalamar's definition of honor any more important than anyone else's?
I for one do not change or alter my thoughts based on who argues what. A wise person is capable of making up their own mind.
Constant,
~Brian Girvin
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 13:36:44 EDT
::having had enough of this thread::
Quote all da dictionaries ya want, post paragraphs upon paragraphs of yer beliefs Brian, all I want is fer Dalamar ta be Overlord, and me ta be his loyal baron.
And ya know what? I'm winnin' da vote.
Satisfied,
~Jeffrey Oakenshield~
Date: 19 Oct 1998 13:36:44 EDT
::having had enough of this thread::
Quote all da dictionaries ya want, post paragraphs upon paragraphs of yer beliefs Brian, all I want is fer Dalamar ta be Overlord, and me ta be his loyal baron.
And ya know what? I'm winnin' da vote.
Satisfied,
~Jeffrey Oakenshield~
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 15:52:10 EDT
>Quote all da dictionaries ya want, post paragraphs upon paragraphs of yer
>beliefs Brian, all I want is fer Dalamar ta be Overlord, and me ta be his
>loyal baron.
>
>And ya know what? I'm winnin' da vote.
I want Dal to be overlord too, Jeff, but I sure as heck won't compromise my sense of fairness or the duel of swords just to fulfill my ambitions.
Dal should be overlord, but let him be the overlord the same way he became one, through fighting for it, and not your loopholes.
He knows I stand loyal to him as a friend, and he knows I have my own mind and morals. He also knows it's why I make my decisions.
I found it very sad when you told the people of DoS that this was about Huma's word of honor. Your gonnegtion of it being just what you want, and not honor, is now seen by the people of DoS.
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Holder of the Tenth Ring¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
Date: 19 Oct 1998 15:52:10 EDT
>Quote all da dictionaries ya want, post paragraphs upon paragraphs of yer
>beliefs Brian, all I want is fer Dalamar ta be Overlord, and me ta be his
>loyal baron.
>
>And ya know what? I'm winnin' da vote.
I want Dal to be overlord too, Jeff, but I sure as heck won't compromise my sense of fairness or the duel of swords just to fulfill my ambitions.
Dal should be overlord, but let him be the overlord the same way he became one, through fighting for it, and not your loopholes.
He knows I stand loyal to him as a friend, and he knows I have my own mind and morals. He also knows it's why I make my decisions.
I found it very sad when you told the people of DoS that this was about Huma's word of honor. Your gonnegtion of it being just what you want, and not honor, is now seen by the people of DoS.
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Holder of the Tenth Ring¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 17:22:44 EDT
Var, I risked more dan ya ever have fer Dalamar and I'm sick of yer whinin'
Tell someone who cares.
~J
Dal was defended by a champion, me. Nuff said
Date: 19 Oct 1998 17:22:44 EDT
Var, I risked more dan ya ever have fer Dalamar and I'm sick of yer whinin'
Tell someone who cares.
~J
Dal was defended by a champion, me. Nuff said
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From: rixfavre@aol.com (Rix Favre)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 19:14:56 EDT
>Var, I risked more dan ya ever have fer Dalamar . . .
Congrats, Jeff. Want a cookie for that?
-Rix
Date: 19 Oct 1998 19:14:56 EDT
>Var, I risked more dan ya ever have fer Dalamar . . .
Congrats, Jeff. Want a cookie for that?
-Rix
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From: waikrboh@aol.com (WaIkrBoh)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 20:06:26 EDT
Jeff, you said:
"If ya want da title 'Loyal Baron' [you must] support 100% EVERYTHING politically concerning Dalamar"
as well as:
"Did I ever say it was a rule Walker? No."
Now, I know I added the "you must" in that first one, but that is only to keep the meaning of the phrase when in was taken out of its original structure. Still, that first statement sounds like a rule to me. If you don't think what you said constitutes a rule, then I guess I just mis-read your words.
I know you have the right to state your opinions up here. I am not questioning your right to make the statement, but the merit of the statement itself. You state that a Loyalist will support Dal 100% or Dal should remove the Loyal status. You also state it as if you had the power to banish the people yourself. I disagree with both of those, so I posted. You can (hypothetically, not saying you have as of yet) post as many illogical beliefs as you
want, and by doing so you will do little to arouse my anger than kill trees. I am able to write back and respond to them, so I will, and will try to avoid attacking people's rights. It doesn't seem to me that I said anything about your rights. If you think that I did, you probably are just misreading my words.
-Walker Boh
Baron of the 12th
Date: 19 Oct 1998 20:06:26 EDT
Jeff, you said:
"If ya want da title 'Loyal Baron' [you must] support 100% EVERYTHING politically concerning Dalamar"
as well as:
"Did I ever say it was a rule Walker? No."
Now, I know I added the "you must" in that first one, but that is only to keep the meaning of the phrase when in was taken out of its original structure. Still, that first statement sounds like a rule to me. If you don't think what you said constitutes a rule, then I guess I just mis-read your words.
I know you have the right to state your opinions up here. I am not questioning your right to make the statement, but the merit of the statement itself. You state that a Loyalist will support Dal 100% or Dal should remove the Loyal status. You also state it as if you had the power to banish the people yourself. I disagree with both of those, so I posted. You can (hypothetically, not saying you have as of yet) post as many illogical beliefs as you
want, and by doing so you will do little to arouse my anger than kill trees. I am able to write back and respond to them, so I will, and will try to avoid attacking people's rights. It doesn't seem to me that I said anything about your rights. If you think that I did, you probably are just misreading my words.
-Walker Boh
Baron of the 12th
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 20:25:55 EDT
Walker,
Yer first quotation of me is an opinion, not a DoS rule. It is *my* rule, and how I will view other loyal barons, however it will have no bearin' on deir official position or title. I never claimed ta have da power ta banish 'em. I can suggest Dalamar should banish 'em, I can ask Dalamar ta banish 'em, but in da end its all up ta da Overlord.
Rix,
Only if ya promise you'll bake it yerself and add lots of chocolate chips. And since ya have so much time on yer hands (seein' as how you wanted ta jump in my conversation with Var) maybe ya could have da chocolate chips spell out Dashin' Slashers.
~J
Date: 19 Oct 1998 20:25:55 EDT
Walker,
Yer first quotation of me is an opinion, not a DoS rule. It is *my* rule, and how I will view other loyal barons, however it will have no bearin' on deir official position or title. I never claimed ta have da power ta banish 'em. I can suggest Dalamar should banish 'em, I can ask Dalamar ta banish 'em, but in da end its all up ta da Overlord.
Rix,
Only if ya promise you'll bake it yerself and add lots of chocolate chips. And since ya have so much time on yer hands (seein' as how you wanted ta jump in my conversation with Var) maybe ya could have da chocolate chips spell out Dashin' Slashers.
~J
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 22:14:56 EDT
Master Girvin,
Tis nae annathing "two-faced" or in direct conflict about it, laddie buck. The Oathbreaker submitted the question TO the council by his own acts. By submitting himself to the council he, as well as m'lord Dalamar, shall, indeed are, under the scrutiny of the esteemed Barons.
The Oathbreaker has upon this ancient corkboard and by his own hand presented before the eyes of the community his perfidy. Indeed, it is a wise person that ist capable of making up their own mind. I shall nae take the time to point out to thee the contradictions in thine own missives, save to say this, anyone who would state they would not change their mind based on '"who argues what" hast, in me opinion, a closed mind, ast well ast be turning a
blind eye, Sirrah. A wise person takes into consideration all points of view if the opportunity to do so ist presented, then, this same wise person comes to a decision.
Thou oft sign thineself "Constant" Perhaps thou might take a moment to peruse the self same dictionary thou didst peruse whence thou sought the meaning of "Honor" and "Loyalty" to ascertain its meaning.
Cordially,
Jona.
Date: 19 Oct 1998 22:14:56 EDT
Master Girvin,
Tis nae annathing "two-faced" or in direct conflict about it, laddie buck. The Oathbreaker submitted the question TO the council by his own acts. By submitting himself to the council he, as well as m'lord Dalamar, shall, indeed are, under the scrutiny of the esteemed Barons.
The Oathbreaker has upon this ancient corkboard and by his own hand presented before the eyes of the community his perfidy. Indeed, it is a wise person that ist capable of making up their own mind. I shall nae take the time to point out to thee the contradictions in thine own missives, save to say this, anyone who would state they would not change their mind based on '"who argues what" hast, in me opinion, a closed mind, ast well ast be turning a
blind eye, Sirrah. A wise person takes into consideration all points of view if the opportunity to do so ist presented, then, this same wise person comes to a decision.
Thou oft sign thineself "Constant" Perhaps thou might take a moment to peruse the self same dictionary thou didst peruse whence thou sought the meaning of "Honor" and "Loyalty" to ascertain its meaning.
Cordially,
Jona.
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From: cygnetsera@aol.com (CygnetSera)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:30:23 EDT
Dear Lady Helix,
Huma taking the matter before the Baron's Council is interesting, but the council is only charged with looking at the forfeit issue.
Huma's behavior is not even relevant.
The only actionable matter before the Baron's council is what to do regarding the Overlord's forfeit. Period.
I must say, I'm confused. Is the Baron's Council supposed to vote on what punishment is warranted, and then order that punishment? Or are they charged with rewriting and interpreting the rules as issues crop up and changing the scope of their council at a whim? Or both?
I find the addition and tailored interpretation of the rules to benefit the Overlord unconscionable.
I also believe the conduct of the council to be outside the purview of their charge, and their conclusions faulty by tainted preceedings.
May your eyes be open and your mind clear as you review this matter.
I remain in Grace,
Cygnet Seraphin
1st of the 9 Orders
~CS~
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:30:23 EDT
Dear Lady Helix,
Huma taking the matter before the Baron's Council is interesting, but the council is only charged with looking at the forfeit issue.
Huma's behavior is not even relevant.
The only actionable matter before the Baron's council is what to do regarding the Overlord's forfeit. Period.
I must say, I'm confused. Is the Baron's Council supposed to vote on what punishment is warranted, and then order that punishment? Or are they charged with rewriting and interpreting the rules as issues crop up and changing the scope of their council at a whim? Or both?
I find the addition and tailored interpretation of the rules to benefit the Overlord unconscionable.
I also believe the conduct of the council to be outside the purview of their charge, and their conclusions faulty by tainted preceedings.
May your eyes be open and your mind clear as you review this matter.
I remain in Grace,
Cygnet Seraphin
1st of the 9 Orders
~CS~
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From: xgnortx@aol.com (X Gnort X)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:36:07 EDT
In my opinion, I feel, Totally Honestly, That the Council is doing the best job. They are being fair. Anyone who says we aren't is probably biased in their own way.
Also, For anyone who asks again or suggests this.
***WE ARE NOT FOCUSING ON THE HONOR MATCH***
Thank you again
(The above was presented in all caps for everyone's sake, it wasn't singled out to anyone, I just want to make it clear now before it gets any worse.)
Thank you again.
G'nort Espelande G'neesmacher Dragoon Talanador
Head of House Dragoon Talanador
Thrice Baron of the DoS
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master"
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:36:07 EDT
In my opinion, I feel, Totally Honestly, That the Council is doing the best job. They are being fair. Anyone who says we aren't is probably biased in their own way.
Also, For anyone who asks again or suggests this.
***WE ARE NOT FOCUSING ON THE HONOR MATCH***
Thank you again
(The above was presented in all caps for everyone's sake, it wasn't singled out to anyone, I just want to make it clear now before it gets any worse.)
Thank you again.
G'nort Espelande G'neesmacher Dragoon Talanador
Head of House Dragoon Talanador
Thrice Baron of the DoS
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master"
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:37:22 EDT
Cygnet,
If it was Huma's choice ta send ONLY da forfeit before da council of barons, why was it *he* who did speak up and request a match between myself and him, with both my ring and his challenge on da line? I'd love a logical answer.
~J
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:37:22 EDT
Cygnet,
If it was Huma's choice ta send ONLY da forfeit before da council of barons, why was it *he* who did speak up and request a match between myself and him, with both my ring and his challenge on da line? I'd love a logical answer.
~J
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From: gnimishrw@aol.com (Gnimish RW)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:50:22 EDT
>
> If it was Huma's choice ta send ONLY da forfeit before da council of
>barons, why was it *he* who did speak up and request a match between myself
>and him, with both my ring and his challenge on da line? I'd love a logical
>answer.
>
Jeffy...
Lemme ask you this....
If I challenged you to a normal duel on say....Wednesday night with Alais or Drake calling...and asked you to put your ring up as a bet for the duel, do you really think that it would be binding when put up against the actual rules of DoS if you were to lose?
The match between you and Huma? Same thing.
Don't try saying you were stepping forward as Dalamar's champion...you and I both know that not only is that not your decision, but you cannot just change the format of the match at the last minute to suit your needs.
So, regardless of what Huma might have wanted to do, the fact remains that the match between you two is not binding in any way shape or form and should not be considered in any debate or deliberation regarding the challenge.
-Gnimish Gnimoi
Companion and Love to Cygnet Seraphin
Lord of House Gnimoi
Emperor of Shylasa
Warlord of DoS
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:50:22 EDT
>
> If it was Huma's choice ta send ONLY da forfeit before da council of
>barons, why was it *he* who did speak up and request a match between myself
>and him, with both my ring and his challenge on da line? I'd love a logical
>answer.
>
Jeffy...
Lemme ask you this....
If I challenged you to a normal duel on say....Wednesday night with Alais or Drake calling...and asked you to put your ring up as a bet for the duel, do you really think that it would be binding when put up against the actual rules of DoS if you were to lose?
The match between you and Huma? Same thing.
Don't try saying you were stepping forward as Dalamar's champion...you and I both know that not only is that not your decision, but you cannot just change the format of the match at the last minute to suit your needs.
So, regardless of what Huma might have wanted to do, the fact remains that the match between you two is not binding in any way shape or form and should not be considered in any debate or deliberation regarding the challenge.
-Gnimish Gnimoi
Companion and Love to Cygnet Seraphin
Lord of House Gnimoi
Emperor of Shylasa
Warlord of DoS
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From: cygnetsera@aol.com (CygnetSera)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:58:31 EDT
>>If it was Huma's choice ta send ONLY da forfeit before da council of barons, why was it *he* who did speak up and request a match between myself and him, with both my ring and his challenge on da line? I'd love a logical answer.<<
Cyggy pens,
Frustration? Anger? Distraught over not getting *his* chance at the crown? Emotional imbalance? Fatigue? Lack of intimacy? Peer pressure? In need of negative attention?
Seeking his 15 minutes of fame and glory?
Whatever his reasons, they are irrelevant to the forfeit. And more important, Huma's behavior should never have been a consideration in the consequences for the Overlord's forfeit.
Tired, but still in Grace,
Cyggy
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:58:31 EDT
>>If it was Huma's choice ta send ONLY da forfeit before da council of barons, why was it *he* who did speak up and request a match between myself and him, with both my ring and his challenge on da line? I'd love a logical answer.<<
Cyggy pens,
Frustration? Anger? Distraught over not getting *his* chance at the crown? Emotional imbalance? Fatigue? Lack of intimacy? Peer pressure? In need of negative attention?
Seeking his 15 minutes of fame and glory?
Whatever his reasons, they are irrelevant to the forfeit. And more important, Huma's behavior should never have been a consideration in the consequences for the Overlord's forfeit.
Tired, but still in Grace,
Cyggy
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From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:58:56 EDT
I find myself in agreement with Cygnet.
Jeff,
You have been a baron and served on the council many times over.. show us in writing where the council has jurisdiction over that matter and I will cease to argue it.
Collie
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:58:56 EDT
I find myself in agreement with Cygnet.
Jeff,
You have been a baron and served on the council many times over.. show us in writing where the council has jurisdiction over that matter and I will cease to argue it.
Collie