From: karnafexx@aol.com (Karnafexx)
Date: 14 Nov 1999 02:27:55 EST
When Jesse tossed Huma pissn'moan's ring back to the official I felt as proud as a new father.
I remember saying that that was EXACTLY something I would have done.
I think that was the day that Jesse earned a good chunk of my respect.
BRK
Honor
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 14 Nov 1999 17:07:08 EST
>Jesse an' Agrenish wouldst seem ta be less adept in perceivin' 'em an' their
>motives. If'n thee recall, G, t'was Agrenish wast bemoanin' 'is fate an'
>whinin' th' 'e wast bein' put upon an' hae nae th' intestinal fortitude ta
>stand in th' face 'o adversity. Nay such canst be sad 'o Jesse's actions.
>Tis th' verra tellin' difference betwixt th' two 'o 'em.
>
I don't believe that G was discussing their motives, I believe he was discussing what was actually done. Both chose to make their actions deliberate insults to the former title holders they had defeated, and both actions were disrespectful to the sport and the community.
Is that about right, G?
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Captain, Rising Stars
The White Duke
Date: 14 Nov 1999 17:07:08 EST
>Jesse an' Agrenish wouldst seem ta be less adept in perceivin' 'em an' their
>motives. If'n thee recall, G, t'was Agrenish wast bemoanin' 'is fate an'
>whinin' th' 'e wast bein' put upon an' hae nae th' intestinal fortitude ta
>stand in th' face 'o adversity. Nay such canst be sad 'o Jesse's actions.
>Tis th' verra tellin' difference betwixt th' two 'o 'em.
>
I don't believe that G was discussing their motives, I believe he was discussing what was actually done. Both chose to make their actions deliberate insults to the former title holders they had defeated, and both actions were disrespectful to the sport and the community.
Is that about right, G?
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Captain, Rising Stars
The White Duke
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 14 Nov 1999 17:38:42 EST
>I don't believe that G was discussing their motives, I believe he was
>discussing what was actually done. Both chose to make their actions
>deliberate insults to the former title holders they had defeated, and both
>actions were disrespectful to the sport and the community.
> Is that about right, G?
Pretty much.
Doesn't matter what's said or what motives are, I see Aggy and Jesse to be similar in many ways, Both are rude and obnoxious, both don't care what people think of them, both did similar actions when they won their titles, and both are proud of how they act.
As for Aggy whinig about his fate, I don;t actually recall that. When he returned the crown, he said it was cause he was done drawing it. In fact, I don't remember any whining from either. Course, I know Jesse wasn't whining.
Date: 14 Nov 1999 17:38:42 EST
>I don't believe that G was discussing their motives, I believe he was
>discussing what was actually done. Both chose to make their actions
>deliberate insults to the former title holders they had defeated, and both
>actions were disrespectful to the sport and the community.
> Is that about right, G?
Pretty much.
Doesn't matter what's said or what motives are, I see Aggy and Jesse to be similar in many ways, Both are rude and obnoxious, both don't care what people think of them, both did similar actions when they won their titles, and both are proud of how they act.
As for Aggy whinig about his fate, I don;t actually recall that. When he returned the crown, he said it was cause he was done drawing it. In fact, I don't remember any whining from either. Course, I know Jesse wasn't whining.
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From: sartanz@aol.com (Sartan Z)
Date: 14 Nov 1999 18:11:05 EST
>Doesn't matter what's said or what motives are, I see Aggy and Jesse to be
>similar in many ways, Both are rude and obnoxious, both don't care what
>people think of them, both did similar actions when they won their titles,
>and both are proud of how they act.
I guess I can be thrown in with Jesse and Agrenish then, because I fit most of those things. While I've never retired a title, I am rude at times, I am obnoxious at times, I don't care what people think of me, and I'm proud of how I act (unless it involves dance lessons.) In fact, I think that quite a few people can be thrown into that group.
Hoping most people see the point of that,
Sartan
Date: 14 Nov 1999 18:11:05 EST
>Doesn't matter what's said or what motives are, I see Aggy and Jesse to be
>similar in many ways, Both are rude and obnoxious, both don't care what
>people think of them, both did similar actions when they won their titles,
>and both are proud of how they act.
I guess I can be thrown in with Jesse and Agrenish then, because I fit most of those things. While I've never retired a title, I am rude at times, I am obnoxious at times, I don't care what people think of me, and I'm proud of how I act (unless it involves dance lessons.) In fact, I think that quite a few people can be thrown into that group.
Hoping most people see the point of that,
Sartan
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 14 Nov 1999 21:20:05 EST
"I don't believe that G was discussing their motives, I believe he was discussing what was actually done. Both chose to make their actions deliberate insults to the former title holders they had defeated, and both actions were disrespectful to the sport and the community."
Hogwash.
Jesse's sole purpose for challenging was to remove what he felt was an unfit Baron; having done so, he had no need for the ring.
In fact, it was always my observation that Jesse felt he had no real business KEEPING the ring - perhaps because he just didn't want it - and, as such, turning the ring over, rather than holding something he didn't particularly feel any connection to, was one of the more "honorable" actions anyone's ever taken around here.
Disagree all you wish, but I can count on one hand the number of people I know with the fortitude to challenge a title-holder for the sole purpose of removing them, with no desire to hold the rank themselves. That in and of itself should say something.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 14 Nov 1999 21:20:05 EST
"I don't believe that G was discussing their motives, I believe he was discussing what was actually done. Both chose to make their actions deliberate insults to the former title holders they had defeated, and both actions were disrespectful to the sport and the community."
Hogwash.
Jesse's sole purpose for challenging was to remove what he felt was an unfit Baron; having done so, he had no need for the ring.
In fact, it was always my observation that Jesse felt he had no real business KEEPING the ring - perhaps because he just didn't want it - and, as such, turning the ring over, rather than holding something he didn't particularly feel any connection to, was one of the more "honorable" actions anyone's ever taken around here.
Disagree all you wish, but I can count on one hand the number of people I know with the fortitude to challenge a title-holder for the sole purpose of removing them, with no desire to hold the rank themselves. That in and of itself should say something.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 15 Nov 1999 13:47:28 EST
>Disagree all you wish, but I can count on one hand the number of people I
>know with the fortitude to challenge a title-holder for the sole purpose of
>removing them, with no desire to hold the rank themselves. That in and of
>itself should say something.
>
It does say something, Ian. It says that their only contribution is negative rather than positive. That they feel they can't add anything, only subtract. Removing an unworthy title holder does no good if they are not replaced by a worthy title holder. If someone isn't willing to attempt to be a better Baron, they have no business trying to unseat a Baron because they think him or her 'unworthy'. If they aren't willing to be a better Overlord, the
same applies.
Even the worthiest negative contriubtion is practically useless without a positive contribution. You should not subtract unless you are willing to attempt to add something in the place of what you take away.
Jesse's actions, and Agrenish's, both look to me as statements of their lack of character. They put themselves above the sport and the community, in discarding titles it was their duty to defend. They disrespected all of the future holders of both titles, denying them their chance to 'beat the man'.
I realize this is a very subjective matter, but the above is my opinion and I haven't seen anything from either of them to change my mind. In fact, I would say that most of Jesse's actions support my statement that he puts himself above the sport. The same holds true for Agrenish.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Captain, Rising Stars
The White Duke
Date: 15 Nov 1999 13:47:28 EST
>Disagree all you wish, but I can count on one hand the number of people I
>know with the fortitude to challenge a title-holder for the sole purpose of
>removing them, with no desire to hold the rank themselves. That in and of
>itself should say something.
>
It does say something, Ian. It says that their only contribution is negative rather than positive. That they feel they can't add anything, only subtract. Removing an unworthy title holder does no good if they are not replaced by a worthy title holder. If someone isn't willing to attempt to be a better Baron, they have no business trying to unseat a Baron because they think him or her 'unworthy'. If they aren't willing to be a better Overlord, the
same applies.
Even the worthiest negative contriubtion is practically useless without a positive contribution. You should not subtract unless you are willing to attempt to add something in the place of what you take away.
Jesse's actions, and Agrenish's, both look to me as statements of their lack of character. They put themselves above the sport and the community, in discarding titles it was their duty to defend. They disrespected all of the future holders of both titles, denying them their chance to 'beat the man'.
I realize this is a very subjective matter, but the above is my opinion and I haven't seen anything from either of them to change my mind. In fact, I would say that most of Jesse's actions support my statement that he puts himself above the sport. The same holds true for Agrenish.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Captain, Rising Stars
The White Duke
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 15 Nov 1999 16:43:46 EST
I agree with Percy here, Ian. If I want to challenge someone for the rank, I want to be sure that I am prepared to accept the responsibilities of the rank. One reason I have not challenged for Overlord, is because I do not feel I, as a person, would be a good representative as the "Surpreme Dueler" at this time. Maybe sometime in the future, maybe not.
Anyhow, what Jesse and Agrenish did seemed counterproductive. Sure, Jesse removed a baron he seemed unworthy, but tossing the ring out only welcomes someone equally unworthy from getting it again in the next warlord's tournament. It would serve much better for some worthy baron to challenge for the ring and take it away.
On a final note, while Jesse will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he did what he did to help the community. I think he just did it because he thought Huma was a jerk and didn't think he deserved the glory of holding the fourth ring. Honestly, I think helping the community was the last thing on Jesse's mind when he challenged. Of course, it is just an assumption, and it could be an incorrect one.
Jesse is sometimes right about people, and he's brutally honest. I know if he doesn't like me, he'd at least say something. That's what he's done to get my respect. However, I don't think he should get some medal of valor for what he did to the Fourth ring. Just my humble opinion.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Date: 15 Nov 1999 16:43:46 EST
I agree with Percy here, Ian. If I want to challenge someone for the rank, I want to be sure that I am prepared to accept the responsibilities of the rank. One reason I have not challenged for Overlord, is because I do not feel I, as a person, would be a good representative as the "Surpreme Dueler" at this time. Maybe sometime in the future, maybe not.
Anyhow, what Jesse and Agrenish did seemed counterproductive. Sure, Jesse removed a baron he seemed unworthy, but tossing the ring out only welcomes someone equally unworthy from getting it again in the next warlord's tournament. It would serve much better for some worthy baron to challenge for the ring and take it away.
On a final note, while Jesse will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he did what he did to help the community. I think he just did it because he thought Huma was a jerk and didn't think he deserved the glory of holding the fourth ring. Honestly, I think helping the community was the last thing on Jesse's mind when he challenged. Of course, it is just an assumption, and it could be an incorrect one.
Jesse is sometimes right about people, and he's brutally honest. I know if he doesn't like me, he'd at least say something. That's what he's done to get my respect. However, I don't think he should get some medal of valor for what he did to the Fourth ring. Just my humble opinion.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
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From: sidarthax@aol.com (Sidartha x)
Date: 15 Nov 1999 21:20:06 EST
This'll bring your memory back to old times, Ian m'love. I'm going to disagree with you. ::draws a little grinning face by the sentence::
I have to agree with Perci on this one. While the deed of removing an unworthy Baron is admirable, leaving an empty place in the Council is not especially desirable either and, in my mind, is as much a hindrance to this sport as the presence of an unfit Baron.
~Sid
Date: 15 Nov 1999 21:20:06 EST
This'll bring your memory back to old times, Ian m'love. I'm going to disagree with you. ::draws a little grinning face by the sentence::
I have to agree with Perci on this one. While the deed of removing an unworthy Baron is admirable, leaving an empty place in the Council is not especially desirable either and, in my mind, is as much a hindrance to this sport as the presence of an unfit Baron.
~Sid
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 15 Nov 1999 21:37:57 EST
Percy,
Tis nae annathin' negative in removin' an unworthy Baron. In 'uma's case, Ah shouldst say t'was a mos' positive act 'pon Jesse's part.
Tis well Ah recall ye supportin' ta perfidious an' deceitful Baroness, which ast far ast Ah am concerned certainly nae be a 'positive contribution' ta th' ancient sport.
Tis also amusin' th' thee considered th' former Baroness Jaycynda Ashleana ast bein' worthy 'o th' title whilst thee laid challenge unta th' then Baroness Morgana claimin' she wast unworthy 'o ta title. Tis well ye were right spectacularly prevented from garnerin' a ring Ta Council would hae then hae upon it a title 'older wh' hast prefessed 'is unmitigated support fer liars an' cheats. Res' assured, Ah fer one wouldst hae found thee mos' certes
nae a positive addition ta th' Council 'o Barons.
Jonalyn Starfare
Date: 15 Nov 1999 21:37:57 EST
Percy,
Tis nae annathin' negative in removin' an unworthy Baron. In 'uma's case, Ah shouldst say t'was a mos' positive act 'pon Jesse's part.
Tis well Ah recall ye supportin' ta perfidious an' deceitful Baroness, which ast far ast Ah am concerned certainly nae be a 'positive contribution' ta th' ancient sport.
Tis also amusin' th' thee considered th' former Baroness Jaycynda Ashleana ast bein' worthy 'o th' title whilst thee laid challenge unta th' then Baroness Morgana claimin' she wast unworthy 'o ta title. Tis well ye were right spectacularly prevented from garnerin' a ring Ta Council would hae then hae upon it a title 'older wh' hast prefessed 'is unmitigated support fer liars an' cheats. Res' assured, Ah fer one wouldst hae found thee mos' certes
nae a positive addition ta th' Council 'o Barons.
Jonalyn Starfare
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 16 Nov 1999 09:20:51 EST
"It does say something, Ian. It says that their only contribution is negative rather than positive. That they feel they can't add anything, only subtract.Removing an unworthy title holder does no good if they are not replaced by a worthy title holder."
Percival, even you must realize upon further reflection that this comment is sheer and utter nonsense.
Is a community aided if a corrupt peace officer is removed from his post without a new one being hired?
If you have a guard at your gate who opens the gate for your enemies, are you not better off with no gatekeeper at all, so that your enemies at least have to go to the effort of opening the gate themselves?
If you have a rowboat, with six crewmen, are you better off if only five are rowing while six bodies weigh down the vessel, or are you better off throwing the dead weight overboard?
If you have a deadly rotting disease in your finger, is it worth it to cut off said finger without having a functioning replacement ready?
The answers to these questions should be patently obvious to you, Percival; rest assured that there is a parallel in the situation under discussion.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 16 Nov 1999 09:20:51 EST
"It does say something, Ian. It says that their only contribution is negative rather than positive. That they feel they can't add anything, only subtract.Removing an unworthy title holder does no good if they are not replaced by a worthy title holder."
Percival, even you must realize upon further reflection that this comment is sheer and utter nonsense.
Is a community aided if a corrupt peace officer is removed from his post without a new one being hired?
If you have a guard at your gate who opens the gate for your enemies, are you not better off with no gatekeeper at all, so that your enemies at least have to go to the effort of opening the gate themselves?
If you have a rowboat, with six crewmen, are you better off if only five are rowing while six bodies weigh down the vessel, or are you better off throwing the dead weight overboard?
If you have a deadly rotting disease in your finger, is it worth it to cut off said finger without having a functioning replacement ready?
The answers to these questions should be patently obvious to you, Percival; rest assured that there is a parallel in the situation under discussion.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 16 Nov 1999 09:22:23 EST
"Anyhow, what Jesse and Agrenish did seemed counterproductive. Sure, Jesse removed a baron he seemed unworthy, but tossing the ring out only welcomes someone equally unworthy from getting it again in the next warlord's tournament."
It also welcomes someone WORTHY to earn the ring at the next tournament, now doesn't it?
"It would serve much better for some worthy baron to challenge for the ring and take it away."
And if someone worthy had stepped up to do it, then perhaps we wouldn't be discussing this.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 16 Nov 1999 09:22:23 EST
"Anyhow, what Jesse and Agrenish did seemed counterproductive. Sure, Jesse removed a baron he seemed unworthy, but tossing the ring out only welcomes someone equally unworthy from getting it again in the next warlord's tournament."
It also welcomes someone WORTHY to earn the ring at the next tournament, now doesn't it?
"It would serve much better for some worthy baron to challenge for the ring and take it away."
And if someone worthy had stepped up to do it, then perhaps we wouldn't be discussing this.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 16 Nov 1999 15:58:52 EST
"It also welcomes someone WORTHY to earn the ring at the next tournament, now doesn't it?"
Indeed, it does, but doesn't just leaving the unworthy baron alone also welcome someone more worthy to challenge?
"Is a community aided if a corrupt peace officer is removed from his post without a new one being hired?"
No, it's not. In fact, that's what Percy and I were referring to. While it spares us having someone unworthy to possess the title, it doesn't truly "aid" us.
"If you have a guard at your gate who opens the gate for your enemies, are you not better off with no gatekeeper at all, so that your enemies at least have to go to the effort of opening the gate themselves?"
Actually, I wouldn't. If I removed the guard from the gate, then the enemies could then post a guard or two of their own up there and prevent US from getting through. It's better to find someone who can replace him immediately.
While I know part of the argument is "What's the point of your philosophy if nobody wants to step up to do it?" To be honest, it's a good question and argument. However, I feel just blatantly leaving the title empty doesn't aid us anymore.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Date: 16 Nov 1999 15:58:52 EST
"It also welcomes someone WORTHY to earn the ring at the next tournament, now doesn't it?"
Indeed, it does, but doesn't just leaving the unworthy baron alone also welcome someone more worthy to challenge?
"Is a community aided if a corrupt peace officer is removed from his post without a new one being hired?"
No, it's not. In fact, that's what Percy and I were referring to. While it spares us having someone unworthy to possess the title, it doesn't truly "aid" us.
"If you have a guard at your gate who opens the gate for your enemies, are you not better off with no gatekeeper at all, so that your enemies at least have to go to the effort of opening the gate themselves?"
Actually, I wouldn't. If I removed the guard from the gate, then the enemies could then post a guard or two of their own up there and prevent US from getting through. It's better to find someone who can replace him immediately.
While I know part of the argument is "What's the point of your philosophy if nobody wants to step up to do it?" To be honest, it's a good question and argument. However, I feel just blatantly leaving the title empty doesn't aid us anymore.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 16 Nov 1999 21:54:57 EST
Ian...
I hate to say this, because it seems like I've said this so often in so many other situations... but I want specifics.
What, exactly, made Huma such a poor Baron?
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
Date: 16 Nov 1999 21:54:57 EST
Ian...
I hate to say this, because it seems like I've said this so often in so many other situations... but I want specifics.
What, exactly, made Huma such a poor Baron?
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
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From: druidwalkerboh@aol.com (Druid Walker Boh)
Date: 16 Nov 1999 21:57:52 EST
>"Anyhow, what Jesse and Agrenish did seemed counterproductive. Sure, Jesse
>removed a baron he seemed unworthy, but tossing the ring out only welcomes
>someone equally unworthy from getting it again in the next warlord's
>tournament."
>
>It also welcomes someone WORTHY to earn the ring at the next tournament, now
>doesn't it?
>
>"It would serve much better for some worthy baron to challenge for the ring
>and take it away."
>
>And if someone worthy had stepped up to do it, then perhaps we wouldn't be
>discussing this.
>
If you use 4 analogies to back up your point, do any of them have to be relevant to the situation? It all depends on your point of view if whether Huma was completely causing a negative effect on the sport.
The DoS is not a rowboat, a hand, a gate, or anything else that can be easily placed into an analogy. It is used different ways by a many groups of people for different purposes.
However, much of what Ian writes has some basis in truth. The Warlord Tournament wil produce a Baron who has done very well against his peers. A Baron's challenge is a one shot match against someone of questionably higher skill. I have much more respect for those that have been successful in tournaments consistently than those who haven't been.
-Walker
Date: 16 Nov 1999 21:57:52 EST
>"Anyhow, what Jesse and Agrenish did seemed counterproductive. Sure, Jesse
>removed a baron he seemed unworthy, but tossing the ring out only welcomes
>someone equally unworthy from getting it again in the next warlord's
>tournament."
>
>It also welcomes someone WORTHY to earn the ring at the next tournament, now
>doesn't it?
>
>"It would serve much better for some worthy baron to challenge for the ring
>and take it away."
>
>And if someone worthy had stepped up to do it, then perhaps we wouldn't be
>discussing this.
>
If you use 4 analogies to back up your point, do any of them have to be relevant to the situation? It all depends on your point of view if whether Huma was completely causing a negative effect on the sport.
The DoS is not a rowboat, a hand, a gate, or anything else that can be easily placed into an analogy. It is used different ways by a many groups of people for different purposes.
However, much of what Ian writes has some basis in truth. The Warlord Tournament wil produce a Baron who has done very well against his peers. A Baron's challenge is a one shot match against someone of questionably higher skill. I have much more respect for those that have been successful in tournaments consistently than those who haven't been.
-Walker