Date: 9/7/97 10:06 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: EllisaMrgn
Ulath,
It is not the motives of these duelers that I question, it is the fact that an increasing number of invalid challenges are being made.
When Jeffrey Oakenshield challenged me, it was because he wanted the ring, plain and simple. Yet his challenge was made respectfully, following the guidelines set forth for challengers and he is one of the duelers I shall always hold in the highest regards.
If your reason is "I want it." fine. But do me the decency of saying that.. of using my full name, of sending *me* a missive when you are challenging for the ring I now hold. Until someone can spare the time to read the *first* paragraph of the rules of challenge, I will not spare the time see them as anything more than opponent to be dealt with quickly, never a peer.
~Ellisa~
::a stamp of a dragon adorns the bottom of the parchment::
Challenge answered
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Date: 9/7/97 10:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: AlaisdNS
Lady Ellisa,
As the chosen caller, I am ascertes ye recognize th' fact that I must needs nae state publically a preference fer anna duelist, 'oweffer, wi' th' statements comin' tae light 'ere o'er challenges an' th' propriety or impropriety o' 'em I mayst indeed comment 'pon.
Anna one whom doth issue a challenge ist indeed wi'in 'is or 'er rights tae dae sae in accordance wi' their oon reasons. I was soundly an' roundly criticised fer challengin' O'erlord Athlstan simply b'cause 't was time fer me tae make such a challenge, regardless o' whom was 'pon th' station o' O'erlord. HOWEFFER.... O'erlord Athlstan an' I didst discuss mine challenge BEFORE 't was issued publicly. HE knew th' challenge was bein' considered an' agreed wi' 't's issuance BEFORE th' rest o' RhyDin
'ad anna idea 't was tae be issued. I chose tae dae th' courtesy o' speakin' tae mine intended challengee b'fore makin' such public.
Now, I am nae sayin' all challenges shouldst be discussed wi' th' challengee prior tae announcment, but I AM sayin' that there are rules o' courtesy an' decorum by which ALL challenges shouldst be initiated. Th' reasons o' th' challenger be nae important, an' we may agree or disagree wi' th' motives o' th' challenger. In that there shall always be debate an' disagreement. Sae be 't. Howeffer, th' basic rules o' courtesy an' decency be nearly universally accepted by most o' RhyDin. Anna one
issuin' challenge shouldst at least adhere tae th' minimum morals o' decency accepted an' written in th' rules o' challenge, lest their match be negated an' decreed invalid. Such decrees o' invalidity shouldst be excercised wi' ruthless an' unyieldin' adherence tae th' stated means by which challenges mayst be issued by th' powers that be wi'in RhyDin.
I am,
Lady Alais Graham 'd Nitesong Sidhe
wathu-Darelir
Heiress of Nitesong
Warlord of DoS
24th Overlord of DoS
From: AlaisdNS
Lady Ellisa,
As the chosen caller, I am ascertes ye recognize th' fact that I must needs nae state publically a preference fer anna duelist, 'oweffer, wi' th' statements comin' tae light 'ere o'er challenges an' th' propriety or impropriety o' 'em I mayst indeed comment 'pon.
Anna one whom doth issue a challenge ist indeed wi'in 'is or 'er rights tae dae sae in accordance wi' their oon reasons. I was soundly an' roundly criticised fer challengin' O'erlord Athlstan simply b'cause 't was time fer me tae make such a challenge, regardless o' whom was 'pon th' station o' O'erlord. HOWEFFER.... O'erlord Athlstan an' I didst discuss mine challenge BEFORE 't was issued publicly. HE knew th' challenge was bein' considered an' agreed wi' 't's issuance BEFORE th' rest o' RhyDin
'ad anna idea 't was tae be issued. I chose tae dae th' courtesy o' speakin' tae mine intended challengee b'fore makin' such public.
Now, I am nae sayin' all challenges shouldst be discussed wi' th' challengee prior tae announcment, but I AM sayin' that there are rules o' courtesy an' decorum by which ALL challenges shouldst be initiated. Th' reasons o' th' challenger be nae important, an' we may agree or disagree wi' th' motives o' th' challenger. In that there shall always be debate an' disagreement. Sae be 't. Howeffer, th' basic rules o' courtesy an' decency be nearly universally accepted by most o' RhyDin. Anna one
issuin' challenge shouldst at least adhere tae th' minimum morals o' decency accepted an' written in th' rules o' challenge, lest their match be negated an' decreed invalid. Such decrees o' invalidity shouldst be excercised wi' ruthless an' unyieldin' adherence tae th' stated means by which challenges mayst be issued by th' powers that be wi'in RhyDin.
I am,
Lady Alais Graham 'd Nitesong Sidhe
wathu-Darelir
Heiress of Nitesong
Warlord of DoS
24th Overlord of DoS
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Date: 9/7/97 12:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: DarkAxe
Ellisa, agreed. As I said, the increasing number of invalid challenges is distressing. I was addressing my comments to those who were concerned with the reasons of others for challenging. I can understand your concern and your anger at those, including your own challenger, who neglect to file the established propriety involved in making a challenge.
Ulath
From: DarkAxe
Ellisa, agreed. As I said, the increasing number of invalid challenges is distressing. I was addressing my comments to those who were concerned with the reasons of others for challenging. I can understand your concern and your anger at those, including your own challenger, who neglect to file the established propriety involved in making a challenge.
Ulath
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Date: 9/7/97 6:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: IainMacKnz
Ulath~
Believe me, I'll admit the truth in most of what you say.
My problem is this: a statement of opinion is, after all, only a statement of opinion. Those who wish to express it should be allowed to do so. As a case in point, you have stated your own opinion on whether people should criticize or question challenger's motives. By your theory, you shouldn't have done this - because what makes your opinion right, and another's wrong?
By my theory, while I may disagree with you, I welcome you to make public your opinion, and if we disagree, then perhaps something can be learned by the discussion. Perhaps some common ground can be found. And, in some cases, perhaps a majority sway might occur. Even if this happens, it doesn't make one position any more "correct' than another.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
From: IainMacKnz
Ulath~
Believe me, I'll admit the truth in most of what you say.
My problem is this: a statement of opinion is, after all, only a statement of opinion. Those who wish to express it should be allowed to do so. As a case in point, you have stated your own opinion on whether people should criticize or question challenger's motives. By your theory, you shouldn't have done this - because what makes your opinion right, and another's wrong?
By my theory, while I may disagree with you, I welcome you to make public your opinion, and if we disagree, then perhaps something can be learned by the discussion. Perhaps some common ground can be found. And, in some cases, perhaps a majority sway might occur. Even if this happens, it doesn't make one position any more "correct' than another.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
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Date: 9/8/97 5:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: KayneRune
Ulath, and any others who this may pertain to,
I totally agree with what you're saying. While I'm not going to say who's "right" and who's "wrong", I must sway my opinion to agree with your statements.
Also, let me state that I am glad that this is a constructive arguement, with no insults being flung.
It is a real shame to see a good discussion become a mud-flinging contest...
Back to the point, though.
It was a coincidence my retirement occured during the time in which I challenged; However, I would have rescinded my challenge whether or not I had to forfeit my rank. My reasons for rescinding would be simple: I didn't want to be a Baron who was disliked by the general populace, I didn't want any of my friends to have to choose sides, because most of my friends are friends with many others, and I didn't want to lose anyone's respect---in the small chance that I had earned it from anybody, in that
case. I was tired of taking the heat and grief; I was making enemies of people which I had never even met.
This was not what I wanted. I'm not going to say that what some of these people were doing was wrong because I don't want to sound like a whiner, which I am not. I accept their opinions, though I feel they could have been expressed in a more conservative fashion. It's not peaches and cream to walk into the arena and have quite a few people sneer at you. I would not wish this on anyone.
On the subject of the reasons of challenging, I have come to a conclusion that the general opinion is that challenging for the want of the ring is a bad one. On the other hand, challenging because of a rivalry/feud is "acceptable". I could not disagree more. My views on the Baron rank is that the holder of the ring should be a role-model, and should benefit the DoS community in it's entirety. It's not fair to the under-ranked to have a good baron be unseated by one who lacks in leadership skills
because of a fight the two previously had. In contrast to this, though, I have enough faith in each and every duelist in this sport that they can determine when they are ready to challenge, and can therefore try their best to benefit the community. Think about this, please.
Honestly, much thought went into whether I should challenge or not. I deemed myself ready, and I set forth. What's so wrong with that?
~Kayne Rune
From: KayneRune
Ulath, and any others who this may pertain to,
I totally agree with what you're saying. While I'm not going to say who's "right" and who's "wrong", I must sway my opinion to agree with your statements.
Also, let me state that I am glad that this is a constructive arguement, with no insults being flung.
It is a real shame to see a good discussion become a mud-flinging contest...
Back to the point, though.
It was a coincidence my retirement occured during the time in which I challenged; However, I would have rescinded my challenge whether or not I had to forfeit my rank. My reasons for rescinding would be simple: I didn't want to be a Baron who was disliked by the general populace, I didn't want any of my friends to have to choose sides, because most of my friends are friends with many others, and I didn't want to lose anyone's respect---in the small chance that I had earned it from anybody, in that
case. I was tired of taking the heat and grief; I was making enemies of people which I had never even met.
This was not what I wanted. I'm not going to say that what some of these people were doing was wrong because I don't want to sound like a whiner, which I am not. I accept their opinions, though I feel they could have been expressed in a more conservative fashion. It's not peaches and cream to walk into the arena and have quite a few people sneer at you. I would not wish this on anyone.
On the subject of the reasons of challenging, I have come to a conclusion that the general opinion is that challenging for the want of the ring is a bad one. On the other hand, challenging because of a rivalry/feud is "acceptable". I could not disagree more. My views on the Baron rank is that the holder of the ring should be a role-model, and should benefit the DoS community in it's entirety. It's not fair to the under-ranked to have a good baron be unseated by one who lacks in leadership skills
because of a fight the two previously had. In contrast to this, though, I have enough faith in each and every duelist in this sport that they can determine when they are ready to challenge, and can therefore try their best to benefit the community. Think about this, please.
Honestly, much thought went into whether I should challenge or not. I deemed myself ready, and I set forth. What's so wrong with that?
~Kayne Rune
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Date: 9/9/97 8:13 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: JOaknshld
In reply ta Kayne...
Baron is a special rank, at most only 9 may be such at any given time. Kayne ye must realize dat such a position has both advantages, and disadvantages. When ya assume da position of power in DoS, ya must be ready ta have opposition and enemies. Rarely is a baron loved by every warlord and never receives challenge be it by blade or by word. With da ring comes da hardship, I know from experience. I've been challenged at least once a month in every month I've been a baron. I've been made ta choose
between friends in matters of intercession. Some like me, some hate me, it comes with da territory. What ya must truly decide is..."Is dis what I want in me career?". Personally, I love bein' baron, and never refuse a challenge fer da rank. I've had me victories and me defeats, but I see it as far better ta deal with da pressures and experience da attention. If da limelight is not fer ya, dat is perfectly acceptable, but do not fall inta da trap of bein' so naive as ta expect ta be loved by all.
Barons have what others covet, rank and ring. Dey are da keepers of tradition in DoS, and with all dis privilege comes responsibility and hardship.
In da end, dose dat make it ta Baron will find out, da trade off is worth it. All ye need is confidence in yerself, and da ability ta handle da pressures.
~Jeffrey Oakenshield~
From: JOaknshld
In reply ta Kayne...
Baron is a special rank, at most only 9 may be such at any given time. Kayne ye must realize dat such a position has both advantages, and disadvantages. When ya assume da position of power in DoS, ya must be ready ta have opposition and enemies. Rarely is a baron loved by every warlord and never receives challenge be it by blade or by word. With da ring comes da hardship, I know from experience. I've been challenged at least once a month in every month I've been a baron. I've been made ta choose
between friends in matters of intercession. Some like me, some hate me, it comes with da territory. What ya must truly decide is..."Is dis what I want in me career?". Personally, I love bein' baron, and never refuse a challenge fer da rank. I've had me victories and me defeats, but I see it as far better ta deal with da pressures and experience da attention. If da limelight is not fer ya, dat is perfectly acceptable, but do not fall inta da trap of bein' so naive as ta expect ta be loved by all.
Barons have what others covet, rank and ring. Dey are da keepers of tradition in DoS, and with all dis privilege comes responsibility and hardship.
In da end, dose dat make it ta Baron will find out, da trade off is worth it. All ye need is confidence in yerself, and da ability ta handle da pressures.
~Jeffrey Oakenshield~
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Date: 9/9/97 7:21 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: DarkAxe
Jeffrey,
Everyone knows Barons will not be loved by anyone. What I'm sick of is watching someone challenge for a valid reason, whatever it may be, and then watching that same someone rescind his/her challenge because of pressure by the general populace. While Barons will not be loved, certainly, and neither will challengers, I don't think the pressure mounting against a challenger should be so great that he/she is forced to rescind the challenge. Anyway, I guess I'm used to the days when challenges weren't so
embittering and duels were fought when the competitors would shake hands and smile at each other afterwards. This was the rule, not the exception. Nowadays if two duelers in a challenge match speak to each other cordially afterwards it's an aberration and "wonderful to see."
Ulath
From: DarkAxe
Jeffrey,
Everyone knows Barons will not be loved by anyone. What I'm sick of is watching someone challenge for a valid reason, whatever it may be, and then watching that same someone rescind his/her challenge because of pressure by the general populace. While Barons will not be loved, certainly, and neither will challengers, I don't think the pressure mounting against a challenger should be so great that he/she is forced to rescind the challenge. Anyway, I guess I'm used to the days when challenges weren't so
embittering and duels were fought when the competitors would shake hands and smile at each other afterwards. This was the rule, not the exception. Nowadays if two duelers in a challenge match speak to each other cordially afterwards it's an aberration and "wonderful to see."
Ulath
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Date: 9/10/97 8:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: JOaknshld
Ulath,
I do understand yer point and agree. What I was conveyin' ta Kayne was da existence of dese pressures, merely because it is a position of relative power in DoS, and a position coveted by others. He seemed a bit naive ta da fact dat when challengin' ye will face both criticism and opposition by someone. Perhaps in a more perfect world we could look at it as a competition of skill and honor, rather dan a personal slight ta da baron, and allow da winner ta claim his new title, and show respect ta da new
Baron. Unfortunately Ulath, as ye have stated, times have changed, and da ways of DoS have changed. We must either change with dem, or change dem back.
~J
From: JOaknshld
Ulath,
I do understand yer point and agree. What I was conveyin' ta Kayne was da existence of dese pressures, merely because it is a position of relative power in DoS, and a position coveted by others. He seemed a bit naive ta da fact dat when challengin' ye will face both criticism and opposition by someone. Perhaps in a more perfect world we could look at it as a competition of skill and honor, rather dan a personal slight ta da baron, and allow da winner ta claim his new title, and show respect ta da new
Baron. Unfortunately Ulath, as ye have stated, times have changed, and da ways of DoS have changed. We must either change with dem, or change dem back.
~J
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Date: 9/10/97 8:34 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: KayneRune
Jeff,
I appreciate what you're trying to say, and I am full aware that I would not be liked by everybody. My point, though, was that I didn't want to face the embarassment of being challenged a few minutes after I'd won the ring by someone I didn't even know very well. I didn't want to be a controversial baron that *everyone* dislikes; and I didn't want to have nobody in my corner.
I hope that clears it up a little..
~Kayne
From: KayneRune
Jeff,
I appreciate what you're trying to say, and I am full aware that I would not be liked by everybody. My point, though, was that I didn't want to face the embarassment of being challenged a few minutes after I'd won the ring by someone I didn't even know very well. I didn't want to be a controversial baron that *everyone* dislikes; and I didn't want to have nobody in my corner.
I hope that clears it up a little..
~Kayne
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Date: 9/10/97 3:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: JolaFici
My dearest Ulath, and others who are debating this, especially Iain:
It seems to me that what Ulath says and what Iain says are not incompatible. Iain, I don't see that anyone is saying don't have your opinion, or don't state it. Another poster so wisely pointed out that there is a large difference in stating your opinion and discussing a *point* or *occurance* rather than "dissing" a person.
Saying "I don't like the way you mis-challenged" or "That is NOT the right way to challenge" is a lot different than saying "You're a jerk, you couldn't even follow the rules, you idiot" or choosing to condemn their reasons for *wanting* the challenge in the first place.
Stating opinions is fine, but ask yourselves why you must make your opinion public. Is it to change something? If so, do you think it would work better if you were showed diplomacy and respect instead of disrespect?
Also, think about if you really need to make your opinion public at all. This isn't something someone else should tell you, but something you decide inside your own head.
For the record, Iain, what amuses me is that you do NOT do the disrepectful opining that Ulath is complaining about, that I have seen.
... Jola ...
From: JolaFici
My dearest Ulath, and others who are debating this, especially Iain:
It seems to me that what Ulath says and what Iain says are not incompatible. Iain, I don't see that anyone is saying don't have your opinion, or don't state it. Another poster so wisely pointed out that there is a large difference in stating your opinion and discussing a *point* or *occurance* rather than "dissing" a person.
Saying "I don't like the way you mis-challenged" or "That is NOT the right way to challenge" is a lot different than saying "You're a jerk, you couldn't even follow the rules, you idiot" or choosing to condemn their reasons for *wanting* the challenge in the first place.
Stating opinions is fine, but ask yourselves why you must make your opinion public. Is it to change something? If so, do you think it would work better if you were showed diplomacy and respect instead of disrespect?
Also, think about if you really need to make your opinion public at all. This isn't something someone else should tell you, but something you decide inside your own head.
For the record, Iain, what amuses me is that you do NOT do the disrepectful opining that Ulath is complaining about, that I have seen.
... Jola ...
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Date: 9/10/97 5:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: SidarthaE
<<Saying "I don't like the way you mis-challenged" or "That is NOT the right way to challenge" is a lot different than saying "You're a jerk, you couldn't even follow the rules, you idiot" or choosing to condemn their reasons for *wanting* the challenge in the first place.>>
::smiles, reading Jola's words:: I *know* I said that rather recently...let's see if they'll at least listen to her, if not me.
::tacks a very short note under Jola's::
Well said.
~Sid
From: SidarthaE
<<Saying "I don't like the way you mis-challenged" or "That is NOT the right way to challenge" is a lot different than saying "You're a jerk, you couldn't even follow the rules, you idiot" or choosing to condemn their reasons for *wanting* the challenge in the first place.>>
::smiles, reading Jola's words:: I *know* I said that rather recently...let's see if they'll at least listen to her, if not me.
::tacks a very short note under Jola's::
Well said.
~Sid