From: stevegx@aol.com (SteveG X)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 00:11:22 EDT
Billy Ray:
<<Just because someone is "lucky" enough ta' get a ring doesn't mean he\she is qualified ta' be overlord, or even baron fer that matter.>>
I am not about to dispute whether someone is qualified to be Overlord. A Baron is worthy to be the Overlord if and only if he wins the match. The question that comes about on the test of worthiness is whether some is worthy to have the *chance*, one on one, whether one duel or best of three. Big difference. In my opinion, there are some Barons who need to be tested, and on this point I separate myself a bit from Iain. However, Evan would not
fall into one of those categories. He had a defense, and was constantly beating skilled Warlords in regular dueling. He was not just some "trash off the street". Evan deserved a chance, due to those factors, to at least get a best of three match.
Once again, I will not debate worthiness to be the Overlord. That is unimportant to whether he is worthy of the chance. I have no problems testing Warlords who have little history, but a storied and skillful Warlord I would. I really don't care much about the rank of the challenger, except for the fact that a sitting Baron should be given some extra consideration, especially since he did not acquire the ring days before the challenge.
The tough part here is deciding where to draw the line. But I would always err on the side of not testing. The probability of loss to an extremely skilled dueler is unchanged by the test. Those worthy, but unable to win would most definitely lose in a best of three. Those unworthy aren't worth the time for a best of three, unless they prove themselves worthy, in which case the Overlord has to live with a straight shot duel. Using the test merely
serves to anger groups of people such as those speaking out now.
-Steven Glowacki
Tables Turning.
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From: wksunseen@aol.com (WksUnSeen)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 03:22:37 EDT
::Wades through the first, politics-filled, nineteen posts like trying to walk through quicksand filled with half congealed blood::
Now I don't know if what I am about to say has been said or anything. I don't know if I am late to post. I do know that I don't care. Trying to read through thirty-one self important ramblings by a bunch of people too egotistical to read the rules is far beyond my patience. I do apologize to the people trying to bring reason to this thread. The above doesn’t apply to you, but for the rest of you...
The Test of Worthiness is the right of The Overlord. Period. End of Story. That's it. It is the right of The Overlord to use it at his whim for whatever reason. Without any explanation. If The Overlord wishes to test someone so be it. There's nothing to gripe about. Even if it is cowardly as some have said and implied just be glad that The Overlord is scared of you. If you personally have a problem with The Test, become Overlord. Fight through any
test he has then... Don't use it! But as for now, don't whine about The Overlord using his rights or not. Sheeesh....
Walks Unseen
Date: 19 Apr 1998 03:22:37 EDT
::Wades through the first, politics-filled, nineteen posts like trying to walk through quicksand filled with half congealed blood::
Now I don't know if what I am about to say has been said or anything. I don't know if I am late to post. I do know that I don't care. Trying to read through thirty-one self important ramblings by a bunch of people too egotistical to read the rules is far beyond my patience. I do apologize to the people trying to bring reason to this thread. The above doesn’t apply to you, but for the rest of you...
The Test of Worthiness is the right of The Overlord. Period. End of Story. That's it. It is the right of The Overlord to use it at his whim for whatever reason. Without any explanation. If The Overlord wishes to test someone so be it. There's nothing to gripe about. Even if it is cowardly as some have said and implied just be glad that The Overlord is scared of you. If you personally have a problem with The Test, become Overlord. Fight through any
test he has then... Don't use it! But as for now, don't whine about The Overlord using his rights or not. Sheeesh....
Walks Unseen
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From: mthorgrin@aol.com (M Thorgrin)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 03:25:07 EDT
M'Lord Glowacki.
Forgivest mine ignorance, but wouldst not the best of three match that thou dost so often champion also be a test of worthiness? Or, mayhaps, are there degrees to such a test?
Imagine, if thou wilt, an Overlord who wouldst test a challenger not with a Baron, nor with a Warlord. Imagine if this Overlord did choose a commoner as their Champion. What then?
Mikhail Thorgrin, Bard Extra-ordinaire.
A true measure of a man comes from with-in, nay from with-out.
Date: 19 Apr 1998 03:25:07 EDT
M'Lord Glowacki.
Forgivest mine ignorance, but wouldst not the best of three match that thou dost so often champion also be a test of worthiness? Or, mayhaps, are there degrees to such a test?
Imagine, if thou wilt, an Overlord who wouldst test a challenger not with a Baron, nor with a Warlord. Imagine if this Overlord did choose a commoner as their Champion. What then?
Mikhail Thorgrin, Bard Extra-ordinaire.
A true measure of a man comes from with-in, nay from with-out.
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 03:37:51 EDT
"Walks Unseen":
This sort of thing never fails to amuse me.
Yes, it's in the rules. It's also in the rules that Loyal Barons can be challenged... by your logic, they should have nothing whatsoever to complain about, should they? If we should just shrug our shoulders and accept that the Overlord does what it is his right to do, then they should just quietly accept that they are being challenged, and let it go.
I'm fairly sure even my esteemed adversary, Lord Uziel, would have to agree with the analogy.
~irm
Date: 19 Apr 1998 03:37:51 EDT
"Walks Unseen":
This sort of thing never fails to amuse me.
Yes, it's in the rules. It's also in the rules that Loyal Barons can be challenged... by your logic, they should have nothing whatsoever to complain about, should they? If we should just shrug our shoulders and accept that the Overlord does what it is his right to do, then they should just quietly accept that they are being challenged, and let it go.
I'm fairly sure even my esteemed adversary, Lord Uziel, would have to agree with the analogy.
~irm
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From: stevegx@aol.com (SteveG X)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 12:07:08 EDT
M Thorgrin:
<<Forgivest mine ignorance, but wouldst not the best of three match that thou dost so often champion also be a test of worthiness?>>
You are forgiven for your ignorance. The best of three is not a test of worthiness, for the challenger faces the challenged directly. And the two sides have equal chances of winning.
<<Imagine if this Overlord did choose a commoner as their Champion. What then?>>
I really do not see how this in any way is connected to the discussion. Perhaps I myself am ignorant of something you are saying, but please to try explain what you are getting at here.
-Steve
Date: 19 Apr 1998 12:07:08 EDT
M Thorgrin:
<<Forgivest mine ignorance, but wouldst not the best of three match that thou dost so often champion also be a test of worthiness?>>
You are forgiven for your ignorance. The best of three is not a test of worthiness, for the challenger faces the challenged directly. And the two sides have equal chances of winning.
<<Imagine if this Overlord did choose a commoner as their Champion. What then?>>
I really do not see how this in any way is connected to the discussion. Perhaps I myself am ignorant of something you are saying, but please to try explain what you are getting at here.
-Steve
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From: stevegx@aol.com (SteveG X)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 12:10:47 EDT
"Walks Unseen",
I was going to say the same exact thing as Iain, but I think I'll add just a bit more.
Just because someone has the right to do something does not mean they have the right to do it without consequence, as long as the once subjecting them to the consequence have the right to do that. And we have complete right to make our challenges to Loyal Barons, as a response to Dalamar's actions. No one that shares my opinion will ever say that Dalamar lacks the right to do what he has done, but we will say that he was wrong in using that right.
-Steve
Date: 19 Apr 1998 12:10:47 EDT
"Walks Unseen",
I was going to say the same exact thing as Iain, but I think I'll add just a bit more.
Just because someone has the right to do something does not mean they have the right to do it without consequence, as long as the once subjecting them to the consequence have the right to do that. And we have complete right to make our challenges to Loyal Barons, as a response to Dalamar's actions. No one that shares my opinion will ever say that Dalamar lacks the right to do what he has done, but we will say that he was wrong in using that right.
-Steve
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From: wksunseen@aol.com (WksUnSeen)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 15:59:58 EDT
"It's also in the rules that Loyal Barons can be challenged... by your logic, they should have nothing whatsoever to complain about, should they?"
Your powers of thought are amazing. Did I ever say that the Loyal Barons should complain? No. If they are challenged it should be taken as part of the office of baron. What I am saying is that I wish the barons would stop yelling about who's challenging who or what right of the Overlord is being used. If you don't like it, fine. Then don't use it. Whining about it, however, is pointless and rather silly. If it is stipulated in the rules that an
Overlord may use the Test on anyone he may. It is not dishonorable. It is his choice. Whether or not there are "consequences" is your call, but keep it to yourself. That was my message. If you had reason to think I disagreed with your right to challenge whoever you wish, I am sorry.
Walks Unseen
P.S. Walks Unseen is my real name, or what passes for it anyway. I do not see why it would be enclosed in quotes in your post.
Date: 19 Apr 1998 15:59:58 EDT
"It's also in the rules that Loyal Barons can be challenged... by your logic, they should have nothing whatsoever to complain about, should they?"
Your powers of thought are amazing. Did I ever say that the Loyal Barons should complain? No. If they are challenged it should be taken as part of the office of baron. What I am saying is that I wish the barons would stop yelling about who's challenging who or what right of the Overlord is being used. If you don't like it, fine. Then don't use it. Whining about it, however, is pointless and rather silly. If it is stipulated in the rules that an
Overlord may use the Test on anyone he may. It is not dishonorable. It is his choice. Whether or not there are "consequences" is your call, but keep it to yourself. That was my message. If you had reason to think I disagreed with your right to challenge whoever you wish, I am sorry.
Walks Unseen
P.S. Walks Unseen is my real name, or what passes for it anyway. I do not see why it would be enclosed in quotes in your post.
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 17:15:13 EDT
Walks Unseen:
Very well. Where is this "whining" you refer to, then? Or do you consider "We don't like this course of action, and are about to do something about it" to be whining?
You say it is not dishonorable, because it is in the rules. We disagree, and I'm sorry, but nobody is required to adhere to your code of honor.
Nor is Dalamar, or his loyal Barons, for that matter. They can, however, be made to answer for their position, and this is precisely what is happening here.
"Whether or not there are "consequences" is your call, but keep it to yourself."
With a moment's reflection, you might see how silly this comment is. The public has a right to know the reasoning behind the action.
~irm
Date: 19 Apr 1998 17:15:13 EDT
Walks Unseen:
Very well. Where is this "whining" you refer to, then? Or do you consider "We don't like this course of action, and are about to do something about it" to be whining?
You say it is not dishonorable, because it is in the rules. We disagree, and I'm sorry, but nobody is required to adhere to your code of honor.
Nor is Dalamar, or his loyal Barons, for that matter. They can, however, be made to answer for their position, and this is precisely what is happening here.
"Whether or not there are "consequences" is your call, but keep it to yourself."
With a moment's reflection, you might see how silly this comment is. The public has a right to know the reasoning behind the action.
~irm
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 17:36:53 EDT
Iain~
Perhaps you should read my post again, and this time, past my first paragraph. I said....everyone is entitled to their beliefs. They are perfectly entitled to tell Dal that they believe that it was wrong to do what he did. What they don't have a right to do is to insult him and those that wish to stand by him, calling him a coward and calling them "blind followers".
There are consequences to be had, sure...but being insulted and having people call you names is not one of them.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress@Arms
Journeywoman, TDL
Dracoern Highlands
Date: 19 Apr 1998 17:36:53 EDT
Iain~
Perhaps you should read my post again, and this time, past my first paragraph. I said....everyone is entitled to their beliefs. They are perfectly entitled to tell Dal that they believe that it was wrong to do what he did. What they don't have a right to do is to insult him and those that wish to stand by him, calling him a coward and calling them "blind followers".
There are consequences to be had, sure...but being insulted and having people call you names is not one of them.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress@Arms
Journeywoman, TDL
Dracoern Highlands
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 18:03:46 EDT
>There are consequences to be had, sure...but being insulted and having
>people call you names is not one of them.
Of course it is. I don't feel I've been guilty of insulting anyone in this, but the fact remains that being insulted is a consequence of unpopular action, and it always has been.
Then, in turn, those slinging the insults must face the consequences of their words, and on and on it goes.
Very simple.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords.
Date: 19 Apr 1998 18:03:46 EDT
>There are consequences to be had, sure...but being insulted and having
>people call you names is not one of them.
Of course it is. I don't feel I've been guilty of insulting anyone in this, but the fact remains that being insulted is a consequence of unpopular action, and it always has been.
Then, in turn, those slinging the insults must face the consequences of their words, and on and on it goes.
Very simple.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords.
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 19:50:06 EDT
>>Of course it is. I don't feel I've been guilty of insulting anyone in this, but the fact remains that being insulted is a consequence of unpopular action, and it always has been.
Then, in turn, those slinging the insults must face the consequences of their words, and on and on it goes.<<
Iain~
I am not accusing you of insulting. I was just making a blanket statement.
And, if what you say here is true, then Elijah was right. The DoS truly is going to the Nine Hells in a handbasket. The fact that insults and childish namecalling is justified as a "consequence" of upholding what you believe in, and not caving in to other's opinions, then this sport is truly on a swift downhill tumble.
This viscious cycle of insult and counter insult must stop, and soon. Or else this sport, and the community within it, is going to suffer irreparable damage.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress@Arms
Journeywoman, TDL
Dracoern Highlands
Date: 19 Apr 1998 19:50:06 EDT
>>Of course it is. I don't feel I've been guilty of insulting anyone in this, but the fact remains that being insulted is a consequence of unpopular action, and it always has been.
Then, in turn, those slinging the insults must face the consequences of their words, and on and on it goes.<<
Iain~
I am not accusing you of insulting. I was just making a blanket statement.
And, if what you say here is true, then Elijah was right. The DoS truly is going to the Nine Hells in a handbasket. The fact that insults and childish namecalling is justified as a "consequence" of upholding what you believe in, and not caving in to other's opinions, then this sport is truly on a swift downhill tumble.
This viscious cycle of insult and counter insult must stop, and soon. Or else this sport, and the community within it, is going to suffer irreparable damage.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress@Arms
Journeywoman, TDL
Dracoern Highlands
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 21:26:33 EDT
"And, if what you say here is true, then Elijah was right. The DoS truly is going to the Nine Hells in a handbasket. The fact that insults and childish namecalling is justified as a "consequence" of upholding what you believe in, and not caving in to other's opinions, then this sport is truly on a swift downhill tumble."
Quit reading things into my words that are not there, Lady Elgarette. I am not justifying insults and namecalling, I am pointing out why crying about them is a completely futile gesture that does nothing but cause the complainer to grate on the ears.
If you act in an unpopular manner, there are those who will insult you. You can either ignore them, refute them reasonably, or... tack notes to this cork written in fat ink and with large letters.
~irm
Date: 19 Apr 1998 21:26:33 EDT
"And, if what you say here is true, then Elijah was right. The DoS truly is going to the Nine Hells in a handbasket. The fact that insults and childish namecalling is justified as a "consequence" of upholding what you believe in, and not caving in to other's opinions, then this sport is truly on a swift downhill tumble."
Quit reading things into my words that are not there, Lady Elgarette. I am not justifying insults and namecalling, I am pointing out why crying about them is a completely futile gesture that does nothing but cause the complainer to grate on the ears.
If you act in an unpopular manner, there are those who will insult you. You can either ignore them, refute them reasonably, or... tack notes to this cork written in fat ink and with large letters.
~irm
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From: dukeuziei@aol.com (Duke UzieI)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 22:25:44 EDT
Lord Mackenzie,
Mayhaps you are blind to the fact that your *righteous* revolution is not well recieved.
The first battle has been fought, and the Loyals the victors.
Mayhaps you should do as any intelligent man would do. And cut your losses while you still can.
If not...we stand every ready to defend the loyalty we have truely sworn.
~Adonai Uziel~
~DragonLord of RhyDin~
~Baron of the Seventh~
Date: 19 Apr 1998 22:25:44 EDT
Lord Mackenzie,
Mayhaps you are blind to the fact that your *righteous* revolution is not well recieved.
The first battle has been fought, and the Loyals the victors.
Mayhaps you should do as any intelligent man would do. And cut your losses while you still can.
If not...we stand every ready to defend the loyalty we have truely sworn.
~Adonai Uziel~
~DragonLord of RhyDin~
~Baron of the Seventh~
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 23:44:23 EDT
Lord Uziel:
How very nice for you. Blind, however, I cannot admit to.
Two remain untested; two remain unannounced; two remain in the wings. I do note, however, that your word is worth less than the muckings from my stables - or had you forgotten that you swore Kalamere would fall by your blade?
While my issue is with the specific use of the test against Barons, it does occur to me that nobody seems to defend themselves anymore. Except Adeena, who as far as I'm concerned can remain unmolested until I am dust.
Oh... it crosses my mind to mention, try and remember that the only time anyone else has assisted me in a challenge, it was Kalamere, stepping in to halt the use of a Warlord in order to test a sitting Baron. You know, just the sort of thing that happened the other night.
No, Adonai... you've merely taken a piece that I didn't even move. The game continues.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords.
Date: 19 Apr 1998 23:44:23 EDT
Lord Uziel:
How very nice for you. Blind, however, I cannot admit to.
Two remain untested; two remain unannounced; two remain in the wings. I do note, however, that your word is worth less than the muckings from my stables - or had you forgotten that you swore Kalamere would fall by your blade?
While my issue is with the specific use of the test against Barons, it does occur to me that nobody seems to defend themselves anymore. Except Adeena, who as far as I'm concerned can remain unmolested until I am dust.
Oh... it crosses my mind to mention, try and remember that the only time anyone else has assisted me in a challenge, it was Kalamere, stepping in to halt the use of a Warlord in order to test a sitting Baron. You know, just the sort of thing that happened the other night.
No, Adonai... you've merely taken a piece that I didn't even move. The game continues.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords.
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From: dukeuziei@aol.com (Duke UzieI)
Date: 20 Apr 1998 00:22:02 EDT
Lord Mackenzie,
I do believe you will find that I not only gained this title by the strength of my own blade....that I have also defended it personally against two other warlords and walked away victorious.
So if you intimate that I have not the ability to defend my ring...you are wrong. The Intercession was something Dalamar wished to do....do to the personal nature of Kalamere's challenge to me because of my loyalty to him.
So if you believe that I have not the testicular fortitude to face challengers on my own....I call you misinformed, and once again blind.
If you have further problem with that assertion. I call you out to mayhaps dust off some of your own ancient peer wins. And set your challenge to me. And I shall correct you in your error.
But I would advise you to set your sights elsewhere old man....as you will find me very difficult to unseat.
~Adonai Uziel~
~DragonLord of RhyDin~
~Baron of the Seventh~
Date: 20 Apr 1998 00:22:02 EDT
Lord Mackenzie,
I do believe you will find that I not only gained this title by the strength of my own blade....that I have also defended it personally against two other warlords and walked away victorious.
So if you intimate that I have not the ability to defend my ring...you are wrong. The Intercession was something Dalamar wished to do....do to the personal nature of Kalamere's challenge to me because of my loyalty to him.
So if you believe that I have not the testicular fortitude to face challengers on my own....I call you misinformed, and once again blind.
If you have further problem with that assertion. I call you out to mayhaps dust off some of your own ancient peer wins. And set your challenge to me. And I shall correct you in your error.
But I would advise you to set your sights elsewhere old man....as you will find me very difficult to unseat.
~Adonai Uziel~
~DragonLord of RhyDin~
~Baron of the Seventh~