From: xxlucianxx@aol.com (XxLucianxX)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 00:03:03 EDT
Frustration? Anger? ... Emotional imbalance?
So, these are valid reasons for a man doing something you seem to feel he was pressured into, and that excuses him? The fact that he went back on his word means nothing because he, in *your* opinion, gave in to alleged taunts? Gee, it makes you seem like the loss of a loved one could be something people might *really* care about.. but then again, I guess some people can accuse others of a double
standard without noticing hypocrisy.
-- Lucian
Loyalty? No. Neutrality? Very much so.
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 00:25:00 EDT
>>A person can be loyal *and* disagree with the actions of the Overlord. <<
Actions? I did not know that MOURNING was such a horrible offence.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress-At-Arms
Date: 20 Oct 1998 00:25:00 EDT
>>A person can be loyal *and* disagree with the actions of the Overlord. <<
Actions? I did not know that MOURNING was such a horrible offence.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress-At-Arms
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From: cygnetsera@aol.com (CygnetSera)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 00:34:56 EDT
::ruffles her wings with a sigh::
My point is, dear Lucian, that the reasons don't need to be valid. Huma's behavior, after it was certain the Overlord was not meeting his obligation to the challenge, has no bearing what-so-ever on the forfeit and the consequences.
I will remind all of you that I have been loyal to Dalamar and find him a decent and honorable man. But in the face of his obligations to the DoS, and even in the light of his fathers death, according to the rules, he forfeited.
I harbor no bias, when it is written and documented by the council over days, that Huma should be held accountable in some manner. This is objectionable. My convictions regarding the Overlords consequences, stemming from his forfeit, reflect the rules that are written.
I have seen countless deaths in my time, and never before have I seen a great leader fall to his knees, incapacitated and paralyzed, that word could not be sent thru courier, creature or magic.
I am not without compassion, I am tempered by reason.
~CS~
Date: 20 Oct 1998 00:34:56 EDT
::ruffles her wings with a sigh::
My point is, dear Lucian, that the reasons don't need to be valid. Huma's behavior, after it was certain the Overlord was not meeting his obligation to the challenge, has no bearing what-so-ever on the forfeit and the consequences.
I will remind all of you that I have been loyal to Dalamar and find him a decent and honorable man. But in the face of his obligations to the DoS, and even in the light of his fathers death, according to the rules, he forfeited.
I harbor no bias, when it is written and documented by the council over days, that Huma should be held accountable in some manner. This is objectionable. My convictions regarding the Overlords consequences, stemming from his forfeit, reflect the rules that are written.
I have seen countless deaths in my time, and never before have I seen a great leader fall to his knees, incapacitated and paralyzed, that word could not be sent thru courier, creature or magic.
I am not without compassion, I am tempered by reason.
~CS~
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From: xxlucianxx@aol.com (XxLucianxX)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 00:43:13 EDT
Cygnet,
The last I will say on the matter is this. You in your infinte powers and wisdom may find nothing more simple than to send off a message to lands far away to people waiting. I, however, am able to accomplish such feats with but two things : Pen and paper. Assuming, and we *must* assume, because as far as I know, no one, yourself and moi included, have even *bothered* to ask why Dalamar did not send notice to us. Did it ever occur to you that
he *could not* ? Perhaps it was more convincing to your arguement just to ignore the very real possibility. In summary once more, Pen, and Paper. Sometimes it's that *difficult*, not the magical instant notice that you seem so fond of.
-- Lucian
Date: 20 Oct 1998 00:43:13 EDT
Cygnet,
The last I will say on the matter is this. You in your infinte powers and wisdom may find nothing more simple than to send off a message to lands far away to people waiting. I, however, am able to accomplish such feats with but two things : Pen and paper. Assuming, and we *must* assume, because as far as I know, no one, yourself and moi included, have even *bothered* to ask why Dalamar did not send notice to us. Did it ever occur to you that
he *could not* ? Perhaps it was more convincing to your arguement just to ignore the very real possibility. In summary once more, Pen, and Paper. Sometimes it's that *difficult*, not the magical instant notice that you seem so fond of.
-- Lucian
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 05:46:07 EDT
WarLord Lucian writes...
The fact that he went back on his word means nothing because he, in *your* opinion, gave in to alleged taunts?
In point of order, having been present for Huma's announcement and much of what followed before I was forced to leave to begin my shift in the Arena... Huma -was- taunted, insulted and otherwise reviled, even though he -clearly- stated that he did not want the crown by default.
This should in -no way- be seen as an active involvement in the political situation, mearly a clairification of the events of the night in question.
I thank you for your time.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon
Date: 20 Oct 1998 05:46:07 EDT
WarLord Lucian writes...
The fact that he went back on his word means nothing because he, in *your* opinion, gave in to alleged taunts?
In point of order, having been present for Huma's announcement and much of what followed before I was forced to leave to begin my shift in the Arena... Huma -was- taunted, insulted and otherwise reviled, even though he -clearly- stated that he did not want the crown by default.
This should in -no way- be seen as an active involvement in the political situation, mearly a clairification of the events of the night in question.
I thank you for your time.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon
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From: cygnetsera@aol.com (CygnetSera)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 09:36:26 EDT
Seeing Drake's response, there is no need for the seraph to comment further.
Date: 20 Oct 1998 09:36:26 EDT
Seeing Drake's response, there is no need for the seraph to comment further.
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From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 14:50:53 EDT
A point of order since some people seem more intent on arguing about people they do not like.
Huma has the power to submit nothing to the council of Barons. The match was a forfeit. It was announced a forfeit and by the rules must be sent per the supervisor of the sport to the council.
Is there anyone who remains unclear on the fact that once the match was forfeit, which is a final score, Huma had no say?
~Brian
Date: 20 Oct 1998 14:50:53 EDT
A point of order since some people seem more intent on arguing about people they do not like.
Huma has the power to submit nothing to the council of Barons. The match was a forfeit. It was announced a forfeit and by the rules must be sent per the supervisor of the sport to the council.
Is there anyone who remains unclear on the fact that once the match was forfeit, which is a final score, Huma had no say?
~Brian
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 16:08:28 EDT
Master Girvin,
There's the rub, Sirrah. The Oathbreaker didst have a say, he choose to accept the match as forfeit, ast is within his rights, ast Madame Helix in fact didst remind him, rather than to choose to reschedule the match. I must ponder that a former Baron would need such a reminder, and from the Supervisor of the Duels, nae less.
I do wonder at the swiftness of Madame Helix's appearance, for in point of fact, the official Master Nycholas was to adjudicate the match. I do ponder whether Master Nycholas wast apprised if there was to be a Test of Worthiness, and if so, I do wonder that the Test wast nae permitted to proceed, considering that the Overlord's Champion as well as his Second were in attendance, as well as a Renegade Baron. Tis much I shall ponder about the
swiftness with which the decision wast reached. The Oathbreaker didst declare he wished to cross blades for the mantle. He then leapt at the chance to have the match declared forfeit, throwing the matter to the council. A most interesting dychotomy, methinks.
Jona.
Date: 20 Oct 1998 16:08:28 EDT
Master Girvin,
There's the rub, Sirrah. The Oathbreaker didst have a say, he choose to accept the match as forfeit, ast is within his rights, ast Madame Helix in fact didst remind him, rather than to choose to reschedule the match. I must ponder that a former Baron would need such a reminder, and from the Supervisor of the Duels, nae less.
I do wonder at the swiftness of Madame Helix's appearance, for in point of fact, the official Master Nycholas was to adjudicate the match. I do ponder whether Master Nycholas wast apprised if there was to be a Test of Worthiness, and if so, I do wonder that the Test wast nae permitted to proceed, considering that the Overlord's Champion as well as his Second were in attendance, as well as a Renegade Baron. Tis much I shall ponder about the
swiftness with which the decision wast reached. The Oathbreaker didst declare he wished to cross blades for the mantle. He then leapt at the chance to have the match declared forfeit, throwing the matter to the council. A most interesting dychotomy, methinks.
Jona.
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 17:09:41 EDT
"Is there anyone who remains unclear on the fact that once the match was forfeit, which is a final score, Huma had no say?"
Before it was "announced a forfeit" perhaps Huma could have said something like, "we don't know what happened to Dal, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him X amount of time to return to the realm."
Perhaps Reiver could have suggested the same thing.
Perhaps Helix could have said, "you know, Dalamar has never missed a challenge match in the year plus he's been here. Huma, do you mind if I give Dalamar until the morning to make sure everything is aright?"
Just why is it that now that the matter was thrust upon the council with no thought toward common courtesy up to that point that you ask us now to have common courtesy and listen to you yammer on and on about a very minor part to this fiasco?
Good job blowing it out of proportion into being the only thing anyone else can talk about; that is quite impressive. Who's your propaganda editor?
It is too damn late to talk about morality and ethics and who's imposing individual notions of honor unjustly upon an unhonorable man. There was plenty of opportunity to handle this without bringing the council into it. And as a result, the council has no choice but to consider the ramifications of a forfeit match and a broken vow.
Honor is not defined by the individual, it is defined by the society the individual lives in. Right or wrong, a person can insist their actions are honorable, but unless their neighbors and colleagues support that viewpoint, the person's concept of their personal honor holds no value.
It... Is... Worthless. That person might as well go live as a hermit.
You asked in the beginning, when you posted here and mailed the Council privately, "but should [the council] punish someone that has broken no rules, only an unwritten moral code that some adhere to and some do not?"
I retort with another question: Should the council reward someone for innappriopriate behavior so deemed by the community/society at large?
I go on record as saying that no one should reward inappropriate behavior, and to say or do nothing is as good as condoning. I will do what I can to change this line of lazy, selfish, destructive-to-the-community thinking. If you think a body cannot decide to hold a man to his word or he must face the consequences, then you have no idea what a successful society is all about.
Over and over again people step forward and say that what Huma did was unhonorable. What good the statement unless each of you are willing to do something about it?
It is not good for one damn thing.
And that, good people, that unhonorable action you cry is Huma's right, is our lowest common denominator; that which we can measure DoS and its community standards by its most fundamental aspects, and that which we must needs cater to. Give Oathbreaker and his bleeding heart supporters a round of applause for cramming that down our throats.
So good of you to jump on that bandwagon, Girvin, in the name of a misguided principle.
Simply,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
Date: 20 Oct 1998 17:09:41 EDT
"Is there anyone who remains unclear on the fact that once the match was forfeit, which is a final score, Huma had no say?"
Before it was "announced a forfeit" perhaps Huma could have said something like, "we don't know what happened to Dal, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him X amount of time to return to the realm."
Perhaps Reiver could have suggested the same thing.
Perhaps Helix could have said, "you know, Dalamar has never missed a challenge match in the year plus he's been here. Huma, do you mind if I give Dalamar until the morning to make sure everything is aright?"
Just why is it that now that the matter was thrust upon the council with no thought toward common courtesy up to that point that you ask us now to have common courtesy and listen to you yammer on and on about a very minor part to this fiasco?
Good job blowing it out of proportion into being the only thing anyone else can talk about; that is quite impressive. Who's your propaganda editor?
It is too damn late to talk about morality and ethics and who's imposing individual notions of honor unjustly upon an unhonorable man. There was plenty of opportunity to handle this without bringing the council into it. And as a result, the council has no choice but to consider the ramifications of a forfeit match and a broken vow.
Honor is not defined by the individual, it is defined by the society the individual lives in. Right or wrong, a person can insist their actions are honorable, but unless their neighbors and colleagues support that viewpoint, the person's concept of their personal honor holds no value.
It... Is... Worthless. That person might as well go live as a hermit.
You asked in the beginning, when you posted here and mailed the Council privately, "but should [the council] punish someone that has broken no rules, only an unwritten moral code that some adhere to and some do not?"
I retort with another question: Should the council reward someone for innappriopriate behavior so deemed by the community/society at large?
I go on record as saying that no one should reward inappropriate behavior, and to say or do nothing is as good as condoning. I will do what I can to change this line of lazy, selfish, destructive-to-the-community thinking. If you think a body cannot decide to hold a man to his word or he must face the consequences, then you have no idea what a successful society is all about.
Over and over again people step forward and say that what Huma did was unhonorable. What good the statement unless each of you are willing to do something about it?
It is not good for one damn thing.
And that, good people, that unhonorable action you cry is Huma's right, is our lowest common denominator; that which we can measure DoS and its community standards by its most fundamental aspects, and that which we must needs cater to. Give Oathbreaker and his bleeding heart supporters a round of applause for cramming that down our throats.
So good of you to jump on that bandwagon, Girvin, in the name of a misguided principle.
Simply,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
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From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 17:45:36 EDT
Before it was "announced a forfeit" perhaps Huma could have said something like, "we don't know what happened to Dal, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him X amount of time to return to the realm."
~Morgan.
Alright Morgan and what of Warlord Clutch's oppurtunity? Eh?!? What about his rights?!? Feh. Here are the facts.
Dalamar was not there at the scheduled time.
The crowd waited for almost an hours time, along with the challenger.
I submit to you Morgan that *NO* one else has *EVER* been granted such a long allowance of time. NO one. Huma met his offical obligation. Dalamar did not. The match was declared in forfeit when the warlord stated he was unwilling to reschedule. Now will you face one on your council and tell him the insult that Dalamar means more than he does? Are you that openly prejudiced? The rules are the rules, they bend for no one.
As to your comments to my action.
1) Nothing I did was done behind closed doors. I have no secerts to keep here Madame. Everything I have done and said I have done and said befor eht community as a whole and if you have a problem with that you may walk west until your hat floats.
2) I have jumped on no one's "band wagon." I could give a fig if one person stands with me or if all nail me to the nearest wall. What I have done and said I have done and said because I felt them right and honorable.
So you see Madame, their is no clear agreement on honor for you see fit to question mine when my mind has been made clear to all.
Finally, I wash my hands of the Duel of Swords. My wife has given open of her mind, heard every idea and thought mo matter how crazy or ill-thought. She has sought council from Clo and Golden and at times Kalamere. No decision she has made has ever been biased and for her to be questioned for making the fair decision is bad enough, but to see that no one is willing to stand up and defend the person that has seen this sport through the last two
very stormy years disgusts me to the highest degree.
Courage is honorable. Huma has admitted publically he was wrong and apologized for it. That is courage and an honorable act. Helix has defended and guided this sport through accusations of her staff "cheating" for Dalamar not once or twice but constantly. She has banished those that would attack Dalamar's reign and the callers of this sport with such non-sense. Courage.
I am done, to hell with DoS.
The Girvin
© G Irvin 1998 all rights reserved
Date: 20 Oct 1998 17:45:36 EDT
Before it was "announced a forfeit" perhaps Huma could have said something like, "we don't know what happened to Dal, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him X amount of time to return to the realm."
~Morgan.
Alright Morgan and what of Warlord Clutch's oppurtunity? Eh?!? What about his rights?!? Feh. Here are the facts.
Dalamar was not there at the scheduled time.
The crowd waited for almost an hours time, along with the challenger.
I submit to you Morgan that *NO* one else has *EVER* been granted such a long allowance of time. NO one. Huma met his offical obligation. Dalamar did not. The match was declared in forfeit when the warlord stated he was unwilling to reschedule. Now will you face one on your council and tell him the insult that Dalamar means more than he does? Are you that openly prejudiced? The rules are the rules, they bend for no one.
As to your comments to my action.
1) Nothing I did was done behind closed doors. I have no secerts to keep here Madame. Everything I have done and said I have done and said befor eht community as a whole and if you have a problem with that you may walk west until your hat floats.
2) I have jumped on no one's "band wagon." I could give a fig if one person stands with me or if all nail me to the nearest wall. What I have done and said I have done and said because I felt them right and honorable.
So you see Madame, their is no clear agreement on honor for you see fit to question mine when my mind has been made clear to all.
Finally, I wash my hands of the Duel of Swords. My wife has given open of her mind, heard every idea and thought mo matter how crazy or ill-thought. She has sought council from Clo and Golden and at times Kalamere. No decision she has made has ever been biased and for her to be questioned for making the fair decision is bad enough, but to see that no one is willing to stand up and defend the person that has seen this sport through the last two
very stormy years disgusts me to the highest degree.
Courage is honorable. Huma has admitted publically he was wrong and apologized for it. That is courage and an honorable act. Helix has defended and guided this sport through accusations of her staff "cheating" for Dalamar not once or twice but constantly. She has banished those that would attack Dalamar's reign and the callers of this sport with such non-sense. Courage.
I am done, to hell with DoS.
The Girvin
© G Irvin 1998 all rights reserved
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:33:40 EDT
>>Before it was "announced a forfeit" perhaps Huma could have said something like, "we don't know what happened to Dal, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him X amount of time to return to the realm."
Perhaps Reiver could have suggested the same thing.
Perhaps Helix could have said, "you know, Dalamar has never missed a challenge match in the year plus he's been here. Huma, do you mind if I give Dalamar until the morning to make sure everything is aright?"<<
Of course not, that would make too much sense. Hasty decisions made by people in a rush. A common mistake, but not one that should have been made in such an important case.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress-At-Arms
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:33:40 EDT
>>Before it was "announced a forfeit" perhaps Huma could have said something like, "we don't know what happened to Dal, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him X amount of time to return to the realm."
Perhaps Reiver could have suggested the same thing.
Perhaps Helix could have said, "you know, Dalamar has never missed a challenge match in the year plus he's been here. Huma, do you mind if I give Dalamar until the morning to make sure everything is aright?"<<
Of course not, that would make too much sense. Hasty decisions made by people in a rush. A common mistake, but not one that should have been made in such an important case.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress-At-Arms
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:33:57 EDT
<<I submit to you Morgan that *NO* one else has *EVER* been granted such a long allowance of time. NO one.>>
I submit ta ya Briain, dat *NO* one else has *EVER* (ta my knowledge) ever asked a loyal baron present ta risk his ring vs. da right ta challenge da Overlord, lost, reneged, and whined about having done nothing LEGALLY wrong.
After what Huma did, dis challenge is about more dan just proper procedure and rules.
~J
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:33:57 EDT
<<I submit to you Morgan that *NO* one else has *EVER* been granted such a long allowance of time. NO one.>>
I submit ta ya Briain, dat *NO* one else has *EVER* (ta my knowledge) ever asked a loyal baron present ta risk his ring vs. da right ta challenge da Overlord, lost, reneged, and whined about having done nothing LEGALLY wrong.
After what Huma did, dis challenge is about more dan just proper procedure and rules.
~J
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:35:04 EDT
>>I submit to you Morgan that *NO* one else has *EVER* been granted such a long allowance of time. NO one.<<
Dalamar was allowed 40 minutes, I believe.
Wasn't either Darkness or Clutch allowed an hour? I wasn't there at either Challenge. Could I get some clarification here?
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress-At-Arms
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:35:04 EDT
>>I submit to you Morgan that *NO* one else has *EVER* been granted such a long allowance of time. NO one.<<
Dalamar was allowed 40 minutes, I believe.
Wasn't either Darkness or Clutch allowed an hour? I wasn't there at either Challenge. Could I get some clarification here?
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress-At-Arms
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:38:11 EDT
Clutch was allowed only 30 minutes. If he had been allowed an hour he would have made it in time to fight his challenge. If I remember correctly, Darkness was allowed the same 30 minutes or a little less. Dal was given an extra 10 minutes that neither of the others was. I don't begrudge him the extra time. The Overlord's title IS a more serious forfeiture than a Baron's ring. I just want it noted that he was allowed
more time, not less. If 40 minutes is indeed accurate.
Percy
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:38:11 EDT
Clutch was allowed only 30 minutes. If he had been allowed an hour he would have made it in time to fight his challenge. If I remember correctly, Darkness was allowed the same 30 minutes or a little less. Dal was given an extra 10 minutes that neither of the others was. I don't begrudge him the extra time. The Overlord's title IS a more serious forfeiture than a Baron's ring. I just want it noted that he was allowed
more time, not less. If 40 minutes is indeed accurate.
Percy
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From: jakvaltrds@aol.com (Jakvaltrds)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 20:48:31 EDT
>>Dalamar was allowed 40 minutes, I believe.
Wasn't either Darkness or Clutch allowed an hour? I wasn't there at either Challenge. Could I get some clarification here?<<
Barons and Baronesses of the Council,
This 5th day of June at 6:30pm I did appear in the Basement Annex at Baron Darkness' request to judge the outcome of two duels, to wit: Tom Evasion's challenge and Gnort Talanador's challenge, to be holder of the 11th ring.
Upon my arrival I wasted time collectin' the challengers' second and Lady information whilst waiting for the Baron's arrival. At 6:45 pm I did turn over a 15 minute hourglass and continued to wait until the sands of time had run their course. Alas, at 7:01pm and without havin' heard from Darkness, I was forced to declare the Baron in forfeit of 'is ring.
As per the rules of our sport, I turn this matter over to the Coucil to decide an outcome. I don't believe I need review what yer choices may be, but if I may, I'd like to add one. Bein' that there were two warlords in queue for this challenge, and in addition to the possibility of simply givin' the ring to Tom, I would also suggest that ye might consider havin' these two Warlords duel for the right to wear the 11th. Again, that is, if ye determine
that the Baron is no longer worthy.
The decision is yers. We will expect a decision by midnight, June 8th unless an extension is requested.
~Helix Deverrey Girvin
Duel of Swords Supervisor
For your clarifcation
Date: 20 Oct 1998 20:48:31 EDT
>>Dalamar was allowed 40 minutes, I believe.
Wasn't either Darkness or Clutch allowed an hour? I wasn't there at either Challenge. Could I get some clarification here?<<
Barons and Baronesses of the Council,
This 5th day of June at 6:30pm I did appear in the Basement Annex at Baron Darkness' request to judge the outcome of two duels, to wit: Tom Evasion's challenge and Gnort Talanador's challenge, to be holder of the 11th ring.
Upon my arrival I wasted time collectin' the challengers' second and Lady information whilst waiting for the Baron's arrival. At 6:45 pm I did turn over a 15 minute hourglass and continued to wait until the sands of time had run their course. Alas, at 7:01pm and without havin' heard from Darkness, I was forced to declare the Baron in forfeit of 'is ring.
As per the rules of our sport, I turn this matter over to the Coucil to decide an outcome. I don't believe I need review what yer choices may be, but if I may, I'd like to add one. Bein' that there were two warlords in queue for this challenge, and in addition to the possibility of simply givin' the ring to Tom, I would also suggest that ye might consider havin' these two Warlords duel for the right to wear the 11th. Again, that is, if ye determine
that the Baron is no longer worthy.
The decision is yers. We will expect a decision by midnight, June 8th unless an extension is requested.
~Helix Deverrey Girvin
Duel of Swords Supervisor
For your clarifcation