Date: 9/3/97 5:04 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: EllisaMrgn
To my challenger,
You have shown me a perfect example of the deterioration of this sport. You had to be *told* to use my full name... with your first post you could not be bothered with sending myself nor Golden a missive. You give me no reasons and as far as I can see this is the clearest example of "I want it", that has been put forth so far. You could not even be shamed into an apology to me and so, I will treat you with the same lack of respect you have shown me.
The lady Alais 'd Nitesong Sidhe will call our match on the Battlefield on the tenth of September at the hour of nine o'clock eastern. You may show up or not.
~Ellisa Morgan~
Holder of the Seventh Ring
Loyal Baroness
::a stamp of a dragon adorns the bottom of the parchment::
Challenge answered
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Date: 9/3/97 12:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: PKardinal
::sighs::
Slider,
To you... I now hold disrespect. After I had won my challenge match, you then told me you wanted to challenge me simply for the reason that I beat you one night in DoF. Then, you challenge Ellisa and tell me it was only because you didn' want to wait 'til the new standings to come out to challenge me. This eagerness of yours to wear the ring all for the wrong reasons somewhat disgusts me. I read of your mischallenge, and now of no appology for it. I am glad to see that you had learned from your
mistake, and re-challenged on your own... But it upsets me that you even challenged in the first place.
Ellisa,
Good luck my dear.
~Phil
Loyal Baron and holder of the 4th ring
From: PKardinal
::sighs::
Slider,
To you... I now hold disrespect. After I had won my challenge match, you then told me you wanted to challenge me simply for the reason that I beat you one night in DoF. Then, you challenge Ellisa and tell me it was only because you didn' want to wait 'til the new standings to come out to challenge me. This eagerness of yours to wear the ring all for the wrong reasons somewhat disgusts me. I read of your mischallenge, and now of no appology for it. I am glad to see that you had learned from your
mistake, and re-challenged on your own... But it upsets me that you even challenged in the first place.
Ellisa,
Good luck my dear.
~Phil
Loyal Baron and holder of the 4th ring
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Date: 9/3/97 2:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: GnrtDrgoon
Go Ellisa!
I have no respect for the challenger, he never took the time to read the "how to" on how to challenge, shows no respect on sending the Baroness a missive nor the standings keeper. In my opinion, an example should be made of this one, or something should be done that it never happens in the future. Mayhaps stricter rules indeed.
*G*
From: GnrtDrgoon
Go Ellisa!
I have no respect for the challenger, he never took the time to read the "how to" on how to challenge, shows no respect on sending the Baroness a missive nor the standings keeper. In my opinion, an example should be made of this one, or something should be done that it never happens in the future. Mayhaps stricter rules indeed.
*G*
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Date: 9/4/97 2:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: Llenlleawc
::Shakes his head at the lack of respect and general deterioration of the DoS lately, and after showing so much promise too..::
((It's enough to send a DoSer screaming back to the realms of simple RPing))
Luck to thee Lady Ellisa.
Llenlleawc du Lake,
Knight of the Table, Prince of Eire,
King's Champion
From: Llenlleawc
::Shakes his head at the lack of respect and general deterioration of the DoS lately, and after showing so much promise too..::
((It's enough to send a DoSer screaming back to the realms of simple RPing))
Luck to thee Lady Ellisa.
Llenlleawc du Lake,
Knight of the Table, Prince of Eire,
King's Champion
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Date: 9/6/97 9:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: DarkAxe
As much as I agree that the honorable challenge etiquette was not upheld here, and for that, Slider is in the wrong, I would like to address on issue:
I am sick and tired of hearing people complaining that duelers are challenging for the "wrong" reasons. Whatever reasons a dueler has for challenge, whether they include some sort of enmity between the two parties, or simply the challenger's desire to hold a position of power, these reasons are valid.
While in private we may consider an opponent's reasons to be somewhat immature, we have no right to publicly criticize an opponent for his or her reasons for challenging simply because we do not agree with them.
On the other hand, challengers need to show some more respect to incumbent position holders. Placing challenges ten minutes after a title defense or acquisition is not showing respect. I certainly understand a desire to beat people to the punch, so to speak, however, I ask this: is it more important to be the first to challenge someone or to fight a dignified, respectful challenge after which both parties will not hate each other for the rest of their respective careers?
Ulath
From: DarkAxe
As much as I agree that the honorable challenge etiquette was not upheld here, and for that, Slider is in the wrong, I would like to address on issue:
I am sick and tired of hearing people complaining that duelers are challenging for the "wrong" reasons. Whatever reasons a dueler has for challenge, whether they include some sort of enmity between the two parties, or simply the challenger's desire to hold a position of power, these reasons are valid.
While in private we may consider an opponent's reasons to be somewhat immature, we have no right to publicly criticize an opponent for his or her reasons for challenging simply because we do not agree with them.
On the other hand, challengers need to show some more respect to incumbent position holders. Placing challenges ten minutes after a title defense or acquisition is not showing respect. I certainly understand a desire to beat people to the punch, so to speak, however, I ask this: is it more important to be the first to challenge someone or to fight a dignified, respectful challenge after which both parties will not hate each other for the rest of their respective careers?
Ulath
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Date: 9/6/97 10:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: IainMacKnz
Ulath:
With all due respect, I - and every other participant in this sport, dueler and spectator alike - have *every* right to criticize publicly anything we wish. If we are somehow "wrong" in our criticism, we will be roundly shouted down; if we are "correct," we will find agreement. But it is the right of everyone to publicly state their opinion.
Further, challengers to high title are public figures, and must be prepared to deal *with* criticism - as are those like myself who vocally state their opinions. A dueler without the fortitude to weather criticism and either respond to it appropriately, or disregard it quietly, can hardly have the fortitude to capture and retain a title, to my thinking.
Respectfully,
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
From: IainMacKnz
Ulath:
With all due respect, I - and every other participant in this sport, dueler and spectator alike - have *every* right to criticize publicly anything we wish. If we are somehow "wrong" in our criticism, we will be roundly shouted down; if we are "correct," we will find agreement. But it is the right of everyone to publicly state their opinion.
Further, challengers to high title are public figures, and must be prepared to deal *with* criticism - as are those like myself who vocally state their opinions. A dueler without the fortitude to weather criticism and either respond to it appropriately, or disregard it quietly, can hardly have the fortitude to capture and retain a title, to my thinking.
Respectfully,
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
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Date: 9/6/97 10:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: GIRVIN
If ye can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen eh, Ian??
I agree. Folk placing themselves in a position of prominance need to prepare to be picked apart. Tis a part of the limelight.
Anyone who disagrees wi' me willna break my heart.
One last thing whilst I think 't, tis much more adult to argue a point, as Ian so finely does rather than a person. Only the weak feel the need to tear others down t' make a point. An intelligent person stands on an issue nay an insult.
~Brian
No titles needed
PS: Skill, honor, and luck to ye Ellisa. Defend with all heart.
From: GIRVIN
If ye can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen eh, Ian??
I agree. Folk placing themselves in a position of prominance need to prepare to be picked apart. Tis a part of the limelight.
Anyone who disagrees wi' me willna break my heart.
One last thing whilst I think 't, tis much more adult to argue a point, as Ian so finely does rather than a person. Only the weak feel the need to tear others down t' make a point. An intelligent person stands on an issue nay an insult.
~Brian
No titles needed
PS: Skill, honor, and luck to ye Ellisa. Defend with all heart.
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Date: 9/7/97 9:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: DarkAxe
I did not say that we should not be allowed to publicly criticize others. I merely think that to criticize someone's reasons for challenging as "greedy" or otherwise is arrogant, conceited, and unworthy of a title holder. Everyone has his/her own reasons for challenging. Whether they consist of a simple desire to hold a title for the glory of it, or stem rather from altercation between the two parties, all reasons for challenging are valid as long as the rules for challenging are upheld.
What I am trying to say is that criticizing people's motives for challenging is arrogance of the highest order. What gives us the right to say that our opinions on why a challenge should be made are any more correct than anyone else's? Certainly, we are all entitled to our own opinions and to express these opinions publicly, but why should we think that those whose opinions are in conflict with our own will give up their opinions and conform to ours?
In the case of Draven Altruis's challenge to Dalamar, whle he was justly criticized for placing his challenge too early and not giving Dalamar a proper grace period, he was unjustly criticized for his "greed" in wanting to challenge. I don't care if his only reason for challenging the overlord was to hold the title because in his own arrogance he felt he was the best dueler in DoS and deserved to hold it. To me, this is a valid reason; and while I am not saying that you should not be allowed to think
otherwise, I am saying that I think you should keep your opinion on his reason for challenging to yourself.
From: DarkAxe
I did not say that we should not be allowed to publicly criticize others. I merely think that to criticize someone's reasons for challenging as "greedy" or otherwise is arrogant, conceited, and unworthy of a title holder. Everyone has his/her own reasons for challenging. Whether they consist of a simple desire to hold a title for the glory of it, or stem rather from altercation between the two parties, all reasons for challenging are valid as long as the rules for challenging are upheld.
What I am trying to say is that criticizing people's motives for challenging is arrogance of the highest order. What gives us the right to say that our opinions on why a challenge should be made are any more correct than anyone else's? Certainly, we are all entitled to our own opinions and to express these opinions publicly, but why should we think that those whose opinions are in conflict with our own will give up their opinions and conform to ours?
In the case of Draven Altruis's challenge to Dalamar, whle he was justly criticized for placing his challenge too early and not giving Dalamar a proper grace period, he was unjustly criticized for his "greed" in wanting to challenge. I don't care if his only reason for challenging the overlord was to hold the title because in his own arrogance he felt he was the best dueler in DoS and deserved to hold it. To me, this is a valid reason; and while I am not saying that you should not be allowed to think
otherwise, I am saying that I think you should keep your opinion on his reason for challenging to yourself.
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Date: 9/7/97 9:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: DarkAxe
I just want to further clarify my point.
We have, over the last few weeks, heard countless arguments about challenges. We have seen several challenges withdrawn because of the criticism they received. Is this what we want?
What I have noticed is debates dividing into three distinct camps. Those who argue for the title holder (usually self-acknowledged friends of the title-holder, though many who are completely unrelated to the title-holder will argue for him/her), those who argue for the challenger (likewise usually friends of the challenger, though not always), and those who are undecided on the issue but wish to point out improprieties on either side.
With the exception of a few challenges, almost every single challenge placed in the last month has become a debating contest in which the camps mentioned above argue until the match is over (and then for weeks afterwards) or the challenge is withdrawn.
DoS has, in this manner, become so political it is outrageous (at least to me.) Iain, I will never tell you that you may not speak your opinion. You would never listen to me even if I did. However, I ask that you consider this before you post your partisan messages condemning one party or another: what are you accomplishing? Do you want duelers to continually rescind challenges because you (and others) don't agree with their opinions? Or do you, like me, want the challenges to continue being made?
Consider me. I believe that challenges should be made when either circumstances goad them out, or there is some reason beyond a desire to hold a title. In fact, I have agreed with you, Iain, that several of the recent challenges were made for immature reasons. However, I understood that my opinions were my own only and that everyone has the right to his/her. I had no desire to start or participate in enormous debates over simple opinions in which no one is going to allow his/her moral precepts to be
undermined by others. No one wins these arguments (unless you consider a withdrawal of a challenge because of the severe drubbing a challenger's reputation gets a victory.) I want them to stop. To me, they are pointless.
From: DarkAxe
I just want to further clarify my point.
We have, over the last few weeks, heard countless arguments about challenges. We have seen several challenges withdrawn because of the criticism they received. Is this what we want?
What I have noticed is debates dividing into three distinct camps. Those who argue for the title holder (usually self-acknowledged friends of the title-holder, though many who are completely unrelated to the title-holder will argue for him/her), those who argue for the challenger (likewise usually friends of the challenger, though not always), and those who are undecided on the issue but wish to point out improprieties on either side.
With the exception of a few challenges, almost every single challenge placed in the last month has become a debating contest in which the camps mentioned above argue until the match is over (and then for weeks afterwards) or the challenge is withdrawn.
DoS has, in this manner, become so political it is outrageous (at least to me.) Iain, I will never tell you that you may not speak your opinion. You would never listen to me even if I did. However, I ask that you consider this before you post your partisan messages condemning one party or another: what are you accomplishing? Do you want duelers to continually rescind challenges because you (and others) don't agree with their opinions? Or do you, like me, want the challenges to continue being made?
Consider me. I believe that challenges should be made when either circumstances goad them out, or there is some reason beyond a desire to hold a title. In fact, I have agreed with you, Iain, that several of the recent challenges were made for immature reasons. However, I understood that my opinions were my own only and that everyone has the right to his/her. I had no desire to start or participate in enormous debates over simple opinions in which no one is going to allow his/her moral precepts to be
undermined by others. No one wins these arguments (unless you consider a withdrawal of a challenge because of the severe drubbing a challenger's reputation gets a victory.) I want them to stop. To me, they are pointless.