From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 27 Aug 2003 17:15:47 EDT
>Maybe you are forgetting that Kateri did not steal anything from Unagi. The
>sword was a gift. Also, I would not kill someone over something so petty as
>a sword.
The sword was a gift, yes. A gift given due to a respectful and honorable challenge match. Unagi gave the sword to Kateri as a gift honoring his respect for her. The sword was an heirloom of Unagi, and was an important gesture.
Kateri then treated that honorable gift as a mere bauble, a useless trinket to be disposed of at the first conveinence. Auctioning it to the highest bidder just so she could make a few bucks.
Such a gesture was disrespectful, rude, inconsiderate and dishonorable. It doesn't matter that most who wanted to buy the weapon wanted to use it put in the halls of the Arena for display, alongside other items of past great duelists, what matters is the weapon was a gift to a person, done in respect, with honor, and that person treated the gift as some cheap trinket.
By her death, Unagi exacted proper retribution for the insult to his honor. And in my *Opinion* she got off lightly.
My analogy of "Theft" is simply that, an analogy to compare situations. Therefore, theft is an acceptable comparison to people outcrying Unagi's actions.
>How did you feel when Charlie died? I know that she was not murdered
>directly, but someone had tweaked the ward. If you knew who to come down
>upon, would you be angry with them?
Sure, Chuck was a good friend of mine and a valuable asset to my team via sales of her calendars and dueling ability. I was understandably displeased at both her death, the cirumstances leading to it, and the reanimation process that brought her sort of around again.(That is a seperate story, altogether, oy)
However, had Chuck wronged someone in such a way that some sort of retribution would and should have been expected, while I would still, such as you, be angry towards the party, I would completely understand their reasonings behind gaining their revenge.
>I am angry because I know who killed Kateri. And if you feel that >I am nothing to worry about, that's fine
How I feel about you is of no concern to this situation, to be honest. The only ones who have to decide whether or not you are/are not to be worried over are yourself and Unagi. How you go about doing something about your anger is your business, not mine. My business was the fact that most everyone was decrying Unagi for killing Kateri when if the same thing happened to someone they were friends with, Kate's death would have been "hunky dory." It's a form of hipocrasy which I called out to the open.
>But I am no joke for you and Starke to laugh about.
Just to set the record straight between us, not once in all these public messages have I been joking. My feeling is Kateri got what she deserved, and got off lightly in doing it. Unagi's honor is restored in his eyes, now it is up to you to do something for Kateri's and your honor as her friend.
The path you have chosen is before you, it is up to you to walk it.
G
Japanese heavy metal on the block
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 27 Aug 2003 17:33:29 EDT
Anyone else feeling sick we're having a casual debate of whether or not a murder was justified?
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Date: 27 Aug 2003 17:33:29 EDT
Anyone else feeling sick we're having a casual debate of whether or not a murder was justified?
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
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From: zur030@aol.com (Zur030)
Date: 27 Aug 2003 19:03:48 EDT
>The sword was a gift, yes. A gift given due to a respectful and honorable
>challenge match. Unagi gave the sword to Kateri as a gift honoring his
>respect for her. The sword was an heirloom of Unagi, and was an important
>gesture.
It was also a gift Kateri tried to decline, if my memory serves correctly. For whatever reason, Unagi would not accept her refusal and pressured her to take a gift she did not want. Heirloom of Unagi or not, slight to Unagi's honour as it may have been, there is no excusing the unlawful taking of a person's life. Unagi is a criminal, and I hope for his sake that he does not show his face again, for I would be inclined to turn him over to the proper authorities.
Now, before everyone starts decrying my statements and telling me how they approve of his murder of Kateri because Unagi is their friend, let me say this. I did not know Unagi personally, aside from an occaisional duel here and there. I was not Unagi's friend, but I had nothing but respect for the longest reigning baron in the history of the Arena. For those who say his killing of Kateri is perfectly fine because it is accepted in his land, I have this to say. This is not Unagi's land. This is Rhydin. By mere nature of the fact that you are in Rhydin, you inherently agree to follow the laws and statutes of Rhydin. Therefore, Unagi has commited murder. He has commited a most heinous crime that I hope he will be punished for.
Hold Fast,
Grayson MacLeod.
Past Holder of IceDancer, Emerald of the Duel of Fists.
Warlord of the Duel of Swords.
Past Keeper of Water.
Date: 27 Aug 2003 19:03:48 EDT
>The sword was a gift, yes. A gift given due to a respectful and honorable
>challenge match. Unagi gave the sword to Kateri as a gift honoring his
>respect for her. The sword was an heirloom of Unagi, and was an important
>gesture.
It was also a gift Kateri tried to decline, if my memory serves correctly. For whatever reason, Unagi would not accept her refusal and pressured her to take a gift she did not want. Heirloom of Unagi or not, slight to Unagi's honour as it may have been, there is no excusing the unlawful taking of a person's life. Unagi is a criminal, and I hope for his sake that he does not show his face again, for I would be inclined to turn him over to the proper authorities.
Now, before everyone starts decrying my statements and telling me how they approve of his murder of Kateri because Unagi is their friend, let me say this. I did not know Unagi personally, aside from an occaisional duel here and there. I was not Unagi's friend, but I had nothing but respect for the longest reigning baron in the history of the Arena. For those who say his killing of Kateri is perfectly fine because it is accepted in his land, I have this to say. This is not Unagi's land. This is Rhydin. By mere nature of the fact that you are in Rhydin, you inherently agree to follow the laws and statutes of Rhydin. Therefore, Unagi has commited murder. He has commited a most heinous crime that I hope he will be punished for.
Hold Fast,
Grayson MacLeod.
Past Holder of IceDancer, Emerald of the Duel of Fists.
Warlord of the Duel of Swords.
Past Keeper of Water.
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From: jaycyashleana@aol.com (Jaycy Ashleana)
Date: 27 Aug 2003 19:45:13 EDT
"Unagi is a criminal, and I hope for his sake that he does not show his face again, for I would be inclined to turn him over to the proper authorities."
Proper authorities? What "proper authorities?" Are you forgetting where you are?
"This is Rhydin. By mere nature of the fact that you are in Rhydin, you inherently agree to follow the laws and statutes of Rhydin. Therefore, Unagi has commited murder. He has commited a most heinous crime that I hope he will be punished for."
You've said it yourself; this is RhyDin. There are no laws and statutes here; every person makes their own law. There is no one to punish him here except those who wish retribution on behalf of the "victim."
I would think you've been here long enough to realize that.
Jaycy
Date: 27 Aug 2003 19:45:13 EDT
"Unagi is a criminal, and I hope for his sake that he does not show his face again, for I would be inclined to turn him over to the proper authorities."
Proper authorities? What "proper authorities?" Are you forgetting where you are?
"This is Rhydin. By mere nature of the fact that you are in Rhydin, you inherently agree to follow the laws and statutes of Rhydin. Therefore, Unagi has commited murder. He has commited a most heinous crime that I hope he will be punished for."
You've said it yourself; this is RhyDin. There are no laws and statutes here; every person makes their own law. There is no one to punish him here except those who wish retribution on behalf of the "victim."
I would think you've been here long enough to realize that.
Jaycy
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From: deluthan@aol.com (Deluthan)
Date: 27 Aug 2003 20:01:39 EDT
"Anyone else feeling sick we're having a casual debate of whether or not a murder was justified?"
I am.
Deluthan
Date: 27 Aug 2003 20:01:39 EDT
"Anyone else feeling sick we're having a casual debate of whether or not a murder was justified?"
I am.
Deluthan
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From: captsneggle@aol.com (Capt Sneggle)
Date: 27 Aug 2003 20:22:47 EDT
G,
<< Such a gesture was disrespectful, rude, inconsiderate and dishonorable. >> those are your words about Kateri. You are off and on disrespectful, rude, and inconsiderate. I cannot in good conscience say you are dishonorable because I have not found that to be the case.
So, does being three out of four mean you should be made a head shorter?
A gift is a gift. I am not aware of any conditions put on it and if there were than it was not a gift, just a piece of leverage used to control behavior.
It is my intent to hunt Unagi down and confront him. I think I can take him out. Any meaning that may occur if I am successful would be meaningful only to me so spare me the its only a duel/spar arguement.
Cordially,
Capt Sneggle
Date: 27 Aug 2003 20:22:47 EDT
G,
<< Such a gesture was disrespectful, rude, inconsiderate and dishonorable. >> those are your words about Kateri. You are off and on disrespectful, rude, and inconsiderate. I cannot in good conscience say you are dishonorable because I have not found that to be the case.
So, does being three out of four mean you should be made a head shorter?
A gift is a gift. I am not aware of any conditions put on it and if there were than it was not a gift, just a piece of leverage used to control behavior.
It is my intent to hunt Unagi down and confront him. I think I can take him out. Any meaning that may occur if I am successful would be meaningful only to me so spare me the its only a duel/spar arguement.
Cordially,
Capt Sneggle
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From: nick0vtyme@aol.com (Nick0vTyme)
Date: 27 Aug 2003 22:13:48 EDT
> Anyone else feeling sick we're having a casual debate of whether or not a
>murder was justified?
it's called "relative morality".
Debates on "relative morality" are often very fascinating.
Nick
Date: 27 Aug 2003 22:13:48 EDT
> Anyone else feeling sick we're having a casual debate of whether or not a
>murder was justified?
it's called "relative morality".
Debates on "relative morality" are often very fascinating.
Nick
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From: klytus@aol.com (Klytus)
Date: 27 Aug 2003 22:16:35 EDT
If I may contribute my own observations.
When a gift is given, for it to truly be considered a gift, it must be given and accepted freely with no strings attached. Once that gift has changed hands, the receiver of that gift is free to do with it as he or she sees fit. The spirit or intent or whatever of how it was given becomes irrelevant. That item is now the possession of the recipient, and the giver no longer has any claim over it. To do so implies that there is still a personal attachment to the item given, which means it was never truly a "gift".
If a wedding band if given to a woman by a man, the man has no right or expectation that the ring will be returned to him should the wedding disolve or even never take place. The woman may do with the ring as she wills: keep it, hock it, or even toss into the sewers or the fires of Mt. Doom. The man may feel offended by this, to be sure, but the ring is no longer his, and he has no right to have any say over what she does to the ring. If the ring was FORCED upon the lady against her will, he has even less business to complain if she does something unflattering with it.
The circumstances under which this sword changed hands indicates to me that it was not a gift. The giver insisted that the item be taken, and it was only accepted under that durress. That, alone, means it was not a true gift. Therefore, the owner had no right to feel insulted over her "mistreatement" of that blade. The blade was given to her, it was hers to do with as she pleased. The fact that he had expectations in mind for it meant it was not truly given away. Again, a sign that this sword was not truly "given" away.
If Unagi felt his honr was besmirched by Kateri - it was a situation of his own design. Therefore, he needed to solve the problem internally, not by killing another. He forced a gift upon someone who did not want it, and it was not truly a gift as if he had truly given the blade away, he would not still feel attachment over how it was treated. Rather than killing the lady who triggered his ire, perhaps it would have been wiser for Unagi to examine what it was within himself that made him feel all of this was necessary. Too often have I seen "honor" used as a shield or excuse for petty and selfish behavior. I don't know Unagi well enough to say if that is the case here. All I can say is that judging by the consequences of his actions, his behavior was rash. There must have been other avenues to satisfy "honor" beyond killing. Once a killing is done, it is too late to unring the bell, even with a resurrection.
~~ Klytus
Date: 27 Aug 2003 22:16:35 EDT
If I may contribute my own observations.
When a gift is given, for it to truly be considered a gift, it must be given and accepted freely with no strings attached. Once that gift has changed hands, the receiver of that gift is free to do with it as he or she sees fit. The spirit or intent or whatever of how it was given becomes irrelevant. That item is now the possession of the recipient, and the giver no longer has any claim over it. To do so implies that there is still a personal attachment to the item given, which means it was never truly a "gift".
If a wedding band if given to a woman by a man, the man has no right or expectation that the ring will be returned to him should the wedding disolve or even never take place. The woman may do with the ring as she wills: keep it, hock it, or even toss into the sewers or the fires of Mt. Doom. The man may feel offended by this, to be sure, but the ring is no longer his, and he has no right to have any say over what she does to the ring. If the ring was FORCED upon the lady against her will, he has even less business to complain if she does something unflattering with it.
The circumstances under which this sword changed hands indicates to me that it was not a gift. The giver insisted that the item be taken, and it was only accepted under that durress. That, alone, means it was not a true gift. Therefore, the owner had no right to feel insulted over her "mistreatement" of that blade. The blade was given to her, it was hers to do with as she pleased. The fact that he had expectations in mind for it meant it was not truly given away. Again, a sign that this sword was not truly "given" away.
If Unagi felt his honr was besmirched by Kateri - it was a situation of his own design. Therefore, he needed to solve the problem internally, not by killing another. He forced a gift upon someone who did not want it, and it was not truly a gift as if he had truly given the blade away, he would not still feel attachment over how it was treated. Rather than killing the lady who triggered his ire, perhaps it would have been wiser for Unagi to examine what it was within himself that made him feel all of this was necessary. Too often have I seen "honor" used as a shield or excuse for petty and selfish behavior. I don't know Unagi well enough to say if that is the case here. All I can say is that judging by the consequences of his actions, his behavior was rash. There must have been other avenues to satisfy "honor" beyond killing. Once a killing is done, it is too late to unring the bell, even with a resurrection.
~~ Klytus
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 27 Aug 2003 23:22:40 EDT
1. There are no laws in Rhydin. Good luck with that proper authorities thing with trying to turn him in.
2. If Kateri was strenuously objecting to the gift, I, knowing Unagi fairly well, know that he would not have forced the gift upon her. And from what I understand, Kate didn't really object all that forcefully.
3. If Kateri didn't want the gift after she accepted it, she should have returned it to the previous owner.
4. If you find a reason suitable enough to cut off my head, you're welcome to try. But simple insults and name calling, which I know I am as guilty of as anyone, doesn't strike me as enough to warrant a beheading. Though of course, there may be some out there who would see it as such.
5. As I said to Sprite previously, if you're angry at Unagi for killing Kateri, then you're within your right to gain revenge.
6. I'm not really Unagi's friend, either. I am a nuetral party who can see the justification for his actions.
7. To the Wedding Band comparison, if a marriage broke up, neither party, for the most part, would really care what the other person did. But, if the Husband were still on good terms with the Wife when they split up, you can guarantee he would be very upset that she just up and got rid of the ring. Whether it was her right to dispose of the ring or not, the man would be justifiably upset. Much like Unagi was justifiably upset.
8. Those of you who were not there when the gift exchanged hands are only judging based on hearsay. I would venture to say that the sword was not pressed on Kateri completely against her will, but that she was more feeling as if she did not deserve such an honor.
From my recollection, Kateri refused at first based on her feeling unworthy of Unagi's respect, but upon his saying she did deserve it, accepted the sword in a respectful manner. There was no "Take the sword" .. "No." ..."Take the sword." .. "No." .. "Take the sword!" .. "Okay." type of situation.
It was more of "Accept this gift with my regards towards your skill and honor." .. "I cannot accept this gift. I'm not worthy." .. "I assure you, you are." .. "Then I shall accept your gift."
There was no duress.
9. If Unagi felt his honor was besmirched by Kateri, he solved the problem internally by dealing with the person who besmirched his honor. Killing Kateri was the way he dealt with that.
In closing, I would ask you all put yourselves in the places of both parties, and see how you would feel from either side.
And some people do not seem to have much faith or knowledge of respect and honor these days, at least not someone who regularly attends the Arena.
G
Date: 27 Aug 2003 23:22:40 EDT
1. There are no laws in Rhydin. Good luck with that proper authorities thing with trying to turn him in.
2. If Kateri was strenuously objecting to the gift, I, knowing Unagi fairly well, know that he would not have forced the gift upon her. And from what I understand, Kate didn't really object all that forcefully.
3. If Kateri didn't want the gift after she accepted it, she should have returned it to the previous owner.
4. If you find a reason suitable enough to cut off my head, you're welcome to try. But simple insults and name calling, which I know I am as guilty of as anyone, doesn't strike me as enough to warrant a beheading. Though of course, there may be some out there who would see it as such.
5. As I said to Sprite previously, if you're angry at Unagi for killing Kateri, then you're within your right to gain revenge.
6. I'm not really Unagi's friend, either. I am a nuetral party who can see the justification for his actions.
7. To the Wedding Band comparison, if a marriage broke up, neither party, for the most part, would really care what the other person did. But, if the Husband were still on good terms with the Wife when they split up, you can guarantee he would be very upset that she just up and got rid of the ring. Whether it was her right to dispose of the ring or not, the man would be justifiably upset. Much like Unagi was justifiably upset.
8. Those of you who were not there when the gift exchanged hands are only judging based on hearsay. I would venture to say that the sword was not pressed on Kateri completely against her will, but that she was more feeling as if she did not deserve such an honor.
From my recollection, Kateri refused at first based on her feeling unworthy of Unagi's respect, but upon his saying she did deserve it, accepted the sword in a respectful manner. There was no "Take the sword" .. "No." ..."Take the sword." .. "No." .. "Take the sword!" .. "Okay." type of situation.
It was more of "Accept this gift with my regards towards your skill and honor." .. "I cannot accept this gift. I'm not worthy." .. "I assure you, you are." .. "Then I shall accept your gift."
There was no duress.
9. If Unagi felt his honor was besmirched by Kateri, he solved the problem internally by dealing with the person who besmirched his honor. Killing Kateri was the way he dealt with that.
In closing, I would ask you all put yourselves in the places of both parties, and see how you would feel from either side.
And some people do not seem to have much faith or knowledge of respect and honor these days, at least not someone who regularly attends the Arena.
G
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 28 Aug 2003 03:14:08 EDT
Oh. Thats just too bad. Someone got murdered.
I'm sure the police will handle it!
Date: 28 Aug 2003 03:14:08 EDT
Oh. Thats just too bad. Someone got murdered.
I'm sure the police will handle it!
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From: zur030@aol.com (Zur030)
Date: 28 Aug 2003 06:59:17 EDT
>And some people do not seem to have much faith or knowledge of respect and
>honor these days, at least not someone who regularly attends the Arena.
When it is used as an excuse to justify the taking of an innocent life, then your honor is worthless.
Hold Fast,
Grayson MacLeod.
Past Holder of IceDancer, Emerald of the Duel of Fists.
Warlord of the Duel of Swords.
Past Keeper of Water.
Date: 28 Aug 2003 06:59:17 EDT
>And some people do not seem to have much faith or knowledge of respect and
>honor these days, at least not someone who regularly attends the Arena.
When it is used as an excuse to justify the taking of an innocent life, then your honor is worthless.
Hold Fast,
Grayson MacLeod.
Past Holder of IceDancer, Emerald of the Duel of Fists.
Warlord of the Duel of Swords.
Past Keeper of Water.
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From: spriteargo@aol.com (Sprite Argo)
Date: 28 Aug 2003 11:14:47 EDT
I will find a way to exact revenge.
Sprite Argo
Date: 28 Aug 2003 11:14:47 EDT
I will find a way to exact revenge.
Sprite Argo
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From: cassiusmaxim@aol.com (Cassius Maxim)
Date: 28 Aug 2003 13:57:50 EDT
"It is my intent to hunt Unagi down and confront him. I think I can take him
out. "
I will kill you if you try.
I'm not kidding either.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Date: 28 Aug 2003 13:57:50 EDT
"It is my intent to hunt Unagi down and confront him. I think I can take him
out. "
I will kill you if you try.
I'm not kidding either.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 28 Aug 2003 14:43:13 EDT
When all this killing and revenge and stuff takes place, please select a time and date so I can get a look at the savageness of my peers.
Great fun for everyone!
Date: 28 Aug 2003 14:43:13 EDT
When all this killing and revenge and stuff takes place, please select a time and date so I can get a look at the savageness of my peers.
Great fun for everyone!
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 28 Aug 2003 17:38:32 EDT
>When it is used as an excuse to justify the taking of an innocent life, then
>your honor is worthless.
The life taken wasn't innocent. She had wronged Unagi.
Because she was your friend, you consider her innocent. I'm neither Unagi's nor Kateri's friend. I was always simply a casual aquaintence on good terms with both.
G
Date: 28 Aug 2003 17:38:32 EDT
>When it is used as an excuse to justify the taking of an innocent life, then
>your honor is worthless.
The life taken wasn't innocent. She had wronged Unagi.
Because she was your friend, you consider her innocent. I'm neither Unagi's nor Kateri's friend. I was always simply a casual aquaintence on good terms with both.
G