From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 14 Aug 1998 01:55:02 EDT
Rand, well written. I agree with everything you said about the sport. There are people here I do not like, and quite a few here who do not like me. However, whether we like or dislike one another does, or should, not affect how we see each other as "worthy". Now, I will not go so far as to say that ANY Overlord has ever used the Test solely based on whether or not he likes his opponent, as I have seen a few charge. I will say, though,
that sometimes it seems as if the reasons for the Test are known only to the Overlord, even when we all think we know why he is doing it.
I would say that, since under the circumstances it would take a major reworking of the rules to do away with the Test completely and since some firmly believe in the Test, it would be a good idea if reasons were stated when the Test was invoked. Not to make this a rule, but rather if someone would set a precedent. Not only would this help us all to understand the decision made by the Overlord, but it would also give those who might or might not
back the challenger in the Test something to consider before making their decision.
Finally, I am not speaking for my House. I am speaking for myself. Some confusion has arisen in the past because I did not make this distinction. I am making it now.
Percival Marchand
Duc de Clermont
Grandmaster of the DoS
House Rising
Overlord Challenge Result
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 14 Aug 1998 01:55:02 EDT
Rand, well written. I agree with everything you said about the sport. There are people here I do not like, and quite a few here who do not like me. However, whether we like or dislike one another does, or should, not affect how we see each other as "worthy". Now, I will not go so far as to say that ANY Overlord has ever used the Test solely based on whether or not he likes his opponent, as I have seen a few charge. I will say, though,
that sometimes it seems as if the reasons for the Test are known only to the Overlord, even when we all think we know why he is doing it.
I would say that, since under the circumstances it would take a major reworking of the rules to do away with the Test completely and since some firmly believe in the Test, it would be a good idea if reasons were stated when the Test was invoked. Not to make this a rule, but rather if someone would set a precedent. Not only would this help us all to understand the decision made by the Overlord, but it would also give those who might or might not
back the challenger in the Test something to consider before making their decision.
Finally, I am not speaking for my House. I am speaking for myself. Some confusion has arisen in the past because I did not make this distinction. I am making it now.
Percival Marchand
Duc de Clermont
Grandmaster of the DoS
House Rising
Date: 14 Aug 1998 01:55:02 EDT
Rand, well written. I agree with everything you said about the sport. There are people here I do not like, and quite a few here who do not like me. However, whether we like or dislike one another does, or should, not affect how we see each other as "worthy". Now, I will not go so far as to say that ANY Overlord has ever used the Test solely based on whether or not he likes his opponent, as I have seen a few charge. I will say, though,
that sometimes it seems as if the reasons for the Test are known only to the Overlord, even when we all think we know why he is doing it.
I would say that, since under the circumstances it would take a major reworking of the rules to do away with the Test completely and since some firmly believe in the Test, it would be a good idea if reasons were stated when the Test was invoked. Not to make this a rule, but rather if someone would set a precedent. Not only would this help us all to understand the decision made by the Overlord, but it would also give those who might or might not
back the challenger in the Test something to consider before making their decision.
Finally, I am not speaking for my House. I am speaking for myself. Some confusion has arisen in the past because I did not make this distinction. I am making it now.
Percival Marchand
Duc de Clermont
Grandmaster of the DoS
House Rising
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From: zen80s@aol.com (Zen 80s)
Date: 14 Aug 1998 02:24:33 EDT
After reading over the two posts, I thought about it and am trying to decide...
What was it that made the difference for testing in the latest two challenges?
After looking at the numbers previously brought up (and restated by Rand), I don't think the differences-- 3 WoL, 1st place ranked Warlord compared to 12th place-- are significant enough to warrant a test.
What about Rand's previous holding of a ring? Was that enough of a difference? If, as has been said, personal feelings should not be involved in a test, then the last notation on the lists-- community standing, which is actually the largest deviation between the two-- might be thrown out. But, then again, that is the community standing, not personal feelings. But are personal feelings on the same level as community standing?
I suppose that's my question here. Are personal feelings to be equated with community standing when it comes to deciding who to test, and how so? Should they not factor? Should they both factor? Should only one factor? Should one factor more than the other?
I'm curious to hear some opinions on this, especially from the Overlord, since, after all, he is the one who makes these decisions, and I would like some insight on how he decides.
Zen
Date: 14 Aug 1998 02:24:33 EDT
After reading over the two posts, I thought about it and am trying to decide...
What was it that made the difference for testing in the latest two challenges?
After looking at the numbers previously brought up (and restated by Rand), I don't think the differences-- 3 WoL, 1st place ranked Warlord compared to 12th place-- are significant enough to warrant a test.
What about Rand's previous holding of a ring? Was that enough of a difference? If, as has been said, personal feelings should not be involved in a test, then the last notation on the lists-- community standing, which is actually the largest deviation between the two-- might be thrown out. But, then again, that is the community standing, not personal feelings. But are personal feelings on the same level as community standing?
I suppose that's my question here. Are personal feelings to be equated with community standing when it comes to deciding who to test, and how so? Should they not factor? Should they both factor? Should only one factor? Should one factor more than the other?
I'm curious to hear some opinions on this, especially from the Overlord, since, after all, he is the one who makes these decisions, and I would like some insight on how he decides.
Zen
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 14 Aug 1998 17:00:00 EDT
Gentles.
Ask of thineself whyfore thou seekest the mantle of the Overlord or the ring of a Baron.
Dost seek for thine own self aggrandizement or for the betterment of the community at large?
Ask also of thineself, wherefore if thou holdest the title what benefit wouldst though bring unto thineself.
Then ask again of thineself, what benefit thou wouldst bring to the community.
If thou carest not for the community, prithee wouldst require of the community that they offer unto thee little more than the barest modicum of respect; that offered unto the title alone?
With the mantle comes the burden, with the ring comes the burden.
Ask also if thine shoulders are strong, for the burden, if nae borne, shall weigh thee down, have no doubt.
For those who would call the duels merely sport, think upon those whose lifesblood has stained crimson the sands within the sanctuary of the rings.
Tis sport, gentles, bloodsport.
In payment for the renewal of the Wards of Gondar, Death took a price....in blood and in spirit.
For those who would cast aside the past, the traditions, think thou deeply upon that which thou wish to cast aside.
The past is the tapestry upon which the future shall be woven. The weft and warp, the skeins intertwining; the strength of each thread telling upon the fabric as a whole.
Ask of thineself, hast though that which offers strength to the fabric or art though the skein that shall tear assunder at first test of the cloth.
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare
Common as they Come.
Date: 14 Aug 1998 17:00:00 EDT
Gentles.
Ask of thineself whyfore thou seekest the mantle of the Overlord or the ring of a Baron.
Dost seek for thine own self aggrandizement or for the betterment of the community at large?
Ask also of thineself, wherefore if thou holdest the title what benefit wouldst though bring unto thineself.
Then ask again of thineself, what benefit thou wouldst bring to the community.
If thou carest not for the community, prithee wouldst require of the community that they offer unto thee little more than the barest modicum of respect; that offered unto the title alone?
With the mantle comes the burden, with the ring comes the burden.
Ask also if thine shoulders are strong, for the burden, if nae borne, shall weigh thee down, have no doubt.
For those who would call the duels merely sport, think upon those whose lifesblood has stained crimson the sands within the sanctuary of the rings.
Tis sport, gentles, bloodsport.
In payment for the renewal of the Wards of Gondar, Death took a price....in blood and in spirit.
For those who would cast aside the past, the traditions, think thou deeply upon that which thou wish to cast aside.
The past is the tapestry upon which the future shall be woven. The weft and warp, the skeins intertwining; the strength of each thread telling upon the fabric as a whole.
Ask of thineself, hast though that which offers strength to the fabric or art though the skein that shall tear assunder at first test of the cloth.
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare
Common as they Come.
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From: jakvaltrds@aol.com (Jakvaltrds)
Date: 15 Aug 1998 04:30:34 EDT
::reading the words of the lady Jonalyn he muses over hid own responsibilities as a Baron. He recalls his own words to her upon his declaration of Loyalty to the Overlord and how the weight of his decision did come to bear post haste.After reading the numerous responses to the intial message, he stops and tries to feel the pressures of the highest rank. Reaching for his quill he pens a breif reply:::;
Baron Zen Rising, Warlord Rand alTan, and warrior Duc De Clermont.
I now but one of you beyond a passing nod or wave. I would nae venture to speak out on against you for your opinion on this subject and ask that you bear with ne as I attempt to be breif.
After many hours of conscious deliberation within ny own mind, I have tried to put myself in the place of the Overlord, Dalamar ar D'aumon. If you by chance have taken the time to read the periodical which I publish, you will no doubt noticed the article written by me, and dedicated to the record breaking year as Overlord, Dalamar has remained in his position.
I was there to see a you warrior defeat the Cleric and take upopn himself the mantle of the Overlord. If my memory serves me correctly, this man stood upon similar ground as yourselves where the Test of Worthiness was concerned. He, like you, felt the test was over used by the Overlord, Athlstan. I see no why Ath did subject so many to the test, and see even more why Dal does the same. Were you to be in his place, having hand 13 challenges in as many
months, would you not set the bar a bit higher for those who chose to bring you down. Would you open your arms to those whom you know to have plotted your removal from power? I think not. I think that you. like myself. would tire of the constant barrage of challengers and would choose to weed out( for lackof a better term) as many as possible.
I personally have no desire to serve in the capacity of Overlord for this very reason.
Would the founders of this great land have given each Loyal Baron the right to intercede on the Overlords behalf, if they had not forseen the rigors of the office?
I would ask that you stop qnd ponder these questions I have asked. Should you find the slightest truth within my words, go to your houses, your students,and the sojouners into this land, teaching them the art of the blade, the honor of the rings and the respect for the sport which brings us together.
I will refrain from ranting any further for I am certain I have dragged it on too long.
Respectfully
Seamus Mac Donnaugh
Baron of the First Ring
Loyal to Rhy Din and to Dalamar
Date: 15 Aug 1998 04:30:34 EDT
::reading the words of the lady Jonalyn he muses over hid own responsibilities as a Baron. He recalls his own words to her upon his declaration of Loyalty to the Overlord and how the weight of his decision did come to bear post haste.After reading the numerous responses to the intial message, he stops and tries to feel the pressures of the highest rank. Reaching for his quill he pens a breif reply:::;
Baron Zen Rising, Warlord Rand alTan, and warrior Duc De Clermont.
I now but one of you beyond a passing nod or wave. I would nae venture to speak out on against you for your opinion on this subject and ask that you bear with ne as I attempt to be breif.
After many hours of conscious deliberation within ny own mind, I have tried to put myself in the place of the Overlord, Dalamar ar D'aumon. If you by chance have taken the time to read the periodical which I publish, you will no doubt noticed the article written by me, and dedicated to the record breaking year as Overlord, Dalamar has remained in his position.
I was there to see a you warrior defeat the Cleric and take upopn himself the mantle of the Overlord. If my memory serves me correctly, this man stood upon similar ground as yourselves where the Test of Worthiness was concerned. He, like you, felt the test was over used by the Overlord, Athlstan. I see no why Ath did subject so many to the test, and see even more why Dal does the same. Were you to be in his place, having hand 13 challenges in as many
months, would you not set the bar a bit higher for those who chose to bring you down. Would you open your arms to those whom you know to have plotted your removal from power? I think not. I think that you. like myself. would tire of the constant barrage of challengers and would choose to weed out( for lackof a better term) as many as possible.
I personally have no desire to serve in the capacity of Overlord for this very reason.
Would the founders of this great land have given each Loyal Baron the right to intercede on the Overlords behalf, if they had not forseen the rigors of the office?
I would ask that you stop qnd ponder these questions I have asked. Should you find the slightest truth within my words, go to your houses, your students,and the sojouners into this land, teaching them the art of the blade, the honor of the rings and the respect for the sport which brings us together.
I will refrain from ranting any further for I am certain I have dragged it on too long.
Respectfully
Seamus Mac Donnaugh
Baron of the First Ring
Loyal to Rhy Din and to Dalamar
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 15 Aug 1998 11:52:51 EDT
> Were you to be in his place, having had 13 challenges in as
> many months, would you not set the bar a bit higher for those
> who chose to bring you down. Would you open your arms to
> those whom you know to have plotted your removal from power?
> I think not. I think that you. like myself. would tire of the constant
> barrage of challengers and would choose to weed out( for lackof
> a better term) as many as possible.
Seamus,
Having read the above quoted passage, I fear I can not pass it by without comment. I would mention the following things in its regard:
1) You write this as if it took sometime for Dal to begin testing challengers; that because he is challenged so often he must protect himself. I would note that this is historically inaccurate.
The first three times that Dlamar could employee the test of worthiness, he did so. During his reign the test has been issued to 7 of the 11 challengers who could be tested. Nova, Topaz, Daegarth and Rand being the only exceptions.
2) Assuming the argument was historically accurate, your reasoning amounts to an abuse of power. It is called the "Test of Worthiness" and according to the written standards may be employed by the Overlord against any challanger "who the Overlord deems unfit." It is not, therefore, an extra weapon to use against any wouldbe challenger simply so that one might sit upon the throne some time longer. It is to be employed only when the
Overlord has a legitimate question as to the challenger's worthiness. Now, I will not take the time to go over each challenger that was tested and pretend I know what qualifications this particular Overlord might use to make such a judgement - however - I will say that the type of reasoning you have described does not even approach the question of worth. Rather, it is wholley self-serving and, as I mentioned, an abuse of power.
~Kalamere...
Date: 15 Aug 1998 11:52:51 EDT
> Were you to be in his place, having had 13 challenges in as
> many months, would you not set the bar a bit higher for those
> who chose to bring you down. Would you open your arms to
> those whom you know to have plotted your removal from power?
> I think not. I think that you. like myself. would tire of the constant
> barrage of challengers and would choose to weed out( for lackof
> a better term) as many as possible.
Seamus,
Having read the above quoted passage, I fear I can not pass it by without comment. I would mention the following things in its regard:
1) You write this as if it took sometime for Dal to begin testing challengers; that because he is challenged so often he must protect himself. I would note that this is historically inaccurate.
The first three times that Dlamar could employee the test of worthiness, he did so. During his reign the test has been issued to 7 of the 11 challengers who could be tested. Nova, Topaz, Daegarth and Rand being the only exceptions.
2) Assuming the argument was historically accurate, your reasoning amounts to an abuse of power. It is called the "Test of Worthiness" and according to the written standards may be employed by the Overlord against any challanger "who the Overlord deems unfit." It is not, therefore, an extra weapon to use against any wouldbe challenger simply so that one might sit upon the throne some time longer. It is to be employed only when the
Overlord has a legitimate question as to the challenger's worthiness. Now, I will not take the time to go over each challenger that was tested and pretend I know what qualifications this particular Overlord might use to make such a judgement - however - I will say that the type of reasoning you have described does not even approach the question of worth. Rather, it is wholley self-serving and, as I mentioned, an abuse of power.
~Kalamere...
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 15 Aug 1998 12:09:25 EDT
...The White Duke carefully reads the Baron's post, finding much that is objectionable within it. He takes up the quill to pen a response, but then decides to read further first. He comes to Kalamere's post, which he also reads very thoroughly and carefully. Though he knows Kalamere's opinion to be less extreme than his own, he agrees thoroughly with the Warlord's missive. He decides that, for now, he will wait and see what others
post before making another of his own...
The White Duke
:::Please don't tell me you saw a post:::
Date: 15 Aug 1998 12:09:25 EDT
...The White Duke carefully reads the Baron's post, finding much that is objectionable within it. He takes up the quill to pen a response, but then decides to read further first. He comes to Kalamere's post, which he also reads very thoroughly and carefully. Though he knows Kalamere's opinion to be less extreme than his own, he agrees thoroughly with the Warlord's missive. He decides that, for now, he will wait and see what others
post before making another of his own...
The White Duke
:::Please don't tell me you saw a post:::
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From: jakvaltrds@aol.com (Jakvaltrds)
Date: 16 Aug 1998 03:31:43 EDT
It is to be employed only when the
Overlord has a legitimate question as to the challenger's worthiness.
Laird Kalamere,
would you be so kind as to tell what you personally would deem a legitaite question to a challengers worthiness?
Before I venture into a debate on a subject I know you find offensive to begin with, I would truly like to hear what makes an opponent worthy to pass untested in your mind.
With all due respect
Seamus
Date: 16 Aug 1998 03:31:43 EDT
It is to be employed only when the
Overlord has a legitimate question as to the challenger's worthiness.
Laird Kalamere,
would you be so kind as to tell what you personally would deem a legitaite question to a challengers worthiness?
Before I venture into a debate on a subject I know you find offensive to begin with, I would truly like to hear what makes an opponent worthy to pass untested in your mind.
With all due respect
Seamus
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 16 Aug 1998 10:32:17 EDT
Seamus,
At this time, I am afraid that we would become bogged down in semantics and a continuing discussion of a matter wholly separate from the issues I raised in the previous missive, were I to list here for you what I consider when deciding the issue of worth. If you truly wish to know, I would be happy to discuss the matter with you either in private or upon a thread more inclined to such an issue.
In regard to our current discussion, however, I feel it will suffice to revisit my previous comments, hence explaining why I believe my feelings on worth to be irrelevant here.
The true question is not what I, Dalamar, Percival or you consider when determine a person's worth to hold the title of Overlord. The question, rather, is whether it was worth that was considered at all. An example might make the difference more clear.
Let us imagine that you are Overlord and I challenge you for that title. Your decision on whether or not to employee the Test should be based wholly on my qualifications - hence my personal worth. When you begin to look at things that are not within my control, such as: The number of other challengers who have tried for the crown or your personal desire to retain the crown for a predetermined amount of time, the pressure you have suffered while
holding the title, or any other matter that involves your own desire to remain Overlord and not my ability to do so, you have left the realm of worthiness and committed an abuse of power.
I do believe that Dalamar has committed such abuse and I have differences with his valuation of the worthiness of challengers. My missive, however, was not directed to Dalamar. Rather, I wrote to you, my friend, to address the flaws in your attempt to booster the Overlord.
~Kalamere...
Date: 16 Aug 1998 10:32:17 EDT
Seamus,
At this time, I am afraid that we would become bogged down in semantics and a continuing discussion of a matter wholly separate from the issues I raised in the previous missive, were I to list here for you what I consider when deciding the issue of worth. If you truly wish to know, I would be happy to discuss the matter with you either in private or upon a thread more inclined to such an issue.
In regard to our current discussion, however, I feel it will suffice to revisit my previous comments, hence explaining why I believe my feelings on worth to be irrelevant here.
The true question is not what I, Dalamar, Percival or you consider when determine a person's worth to hold the title of Overlord. The question, rather, is whether it was worth that was considered at all. An example might make the difference more clear.
Let us imagine that you are Overlord and I challenge you for that title. Your decision on whether or not to employee the Test should be based wholly on my qualifications - hence my personal worth. When you begin to look at things that are not within my control, such as: The number of other challengers who have tried for the crown or your personal desire to retain the crown for a predetermined amount of time, the pressure you have suffered while
holding the title, or any other matter that involves your own desire to remain Overlord and not my ability to do so, you have left the realm of worthiness and committed an abuse of power.
I do believe that Dalamar has committed such abuse and I have differences with his valuation of the worthiness of challengers. My missive, however, was not directed to Dalamar. Rather, I wrote to you, my friend, to address the flaws in your attempt to booster the Overlord.
~Kalamere...
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 16 Aug 1998 21:33:45 EDT
>>Rather, it is wholley self-serving and, as I mentioned, an abuse of power.<<
Kalamere~
So, Dalamar should be expecting a Challenge missive sometime soon, correct?
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Swordslady (again)
All-Star, TDL
Captain, Dracoern Highlands
Duchess of the Eastern Duchy
New Mountainside
Date: 16 Aug 1998 21:33:45 EDT
>>Rather, it is wholley self-serving and, as I mentioned, an abuse of power.<<
Kalamere~
So, Dalamar should be expecting a Challenge missive sometime soon, correct?
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Swordslady (again)
All-Star, TDL
Captain, Dracoern Highlands
Duchess of the Eastern Duchy
New Mountainside
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:09:55 EDT
Sidartha,
Had you taken the opportunity to read the line above the one you quoted, you might note that the statement was not in regard to Dalamar. Rather it was addressed only to the reasoning Seamus had used. Perhaps you would prefer I issue challenge to Seamus because of this disagreement instead?
For the record however, I do believe that Dalamar has abused the powers of the Overlordship.. though I do not know if I would say it has been entirely self-serving. I would need to think more on the matter before making such a comment. Considering Dalamar's already filling dance card and my own previous vows however, I thought I might simply have a discussion with Seamus and leave my blade in its sheath.
~Kalamere...
Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:09:55 EDT
Sidartha,
Had you taken the opportunity to read the line above the one you quoted, you might note that the statement was not in regard to Dalamar. Rather it was addressed only to the reasoning Seamus had used. Perhaps you would prefer I issue challenge to Seamus because of this disagreement instead?
For the record however, I do believe that Dalamar has abused the powers of the Overlordship.. though I do not know if I would say it has been entirely self-serving. I would need to think more on the matter before making such a comment. Considering Dalamar's already filling dance card and my own previous vows however, I thought I might simply have a discussion with Seamus and leave my blade in its sheath.
~Kalamere...
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:20:09 EDT
>>Had you taken the opportunity to read the line above the one you quoted, you might note that the statement was not in regard to Dalamar. Rather it was addressed only to the reasoning Seamus had used. Perhaps you would prefer I issue challenge to Seamus because of this disagreement instead?<<
Kalamere~
I understand that. However, you also made it very clear that you believe that Dalamar is abusing his power. Therefore, my question remains.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Swordslady (again)
All-Star, TDL
Captain, Dracoern Highlands
Duchess of the Eastern Duchy
New Mountainside
Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:20:09 EDT
>>Had you taken the opportunity to read the line above the one you quoted, you might note that the statement was not in regard to Dalamar. Rather it was addressed only to the reasoning Seamus had used. Perhaps you would prefer I issue challenge to Seamus because of this disagreement instead?<<
Kalamere~
I understand that. However, you also made it very clear that you believe that Dalamar is abusing his power. Therefore, my question remains.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Swordslady (again)
All-Star, TDL
Captain, Dracoern Highlands
Duchess of the Eastern Duchy
New Mountainside
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:29:06 EDT
Sidartha,
If your question remains, you should re-read my reply a time or two move. I believe you will find the answer in there. If you find yourself with further commentary or questions beyond that, however, I'll be happy to address them.
~Kal...
Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:29:06 EDT
Sidartha,
If your question remains, you should re-read my reply a time or two move. I believe you will find the answer in there. If you find yourself with further commentary or questions beyond that, however, I'll be happy to address them.
~Kal...