Neutrality- Whats it mean?

[DoS Archive]

From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 06 Aug 1998 18:17:13 EDT

Var, your premise is faulty for one simple reason. If Seraph had defeated the Overlord, it would have been his victory. His victory over the Overlord. The important fight, he would have fought for himself. Evan's action was merely taken to allow this duel to come about, as it should have in the first place.




The White Duke

[DoS Archive]

From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 06 Aug 1998 18:34:24 EDT

Tell me Kalamere, is the occurence of the challenge as made formally and legally not of the paramount good? When a challenge (whether Baronial or Overlord) does not take place due to intervention, a great wrong has been done. Whether one supports or opposes the Overlord, the Overlord not only should be challenged, but MUST be challenged. The challenges force those who hold high rank to prove THEIR worth. The only "Test of Worthiness"
that matters is the duel between defender and challenger. One can want this battle to occur, and not forsake his neutrality. You never did return to my own example, and I want to hear your opinion on it, not a complete evasion.



The White Duke

[DoS Archive]

From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 06 Aug 1998 19:09:01 EDT

The commoner wanders to the ancient corkboard. Flipping through the missives, she cannot stifle a merry peal of laughter as she peruses Kala's comments. Regaining a modicrum of Falire's composure, (stored for emergency use in a small bottle nearby) she tosses a wink in Hubie and Al's direction, "Och, if Ah wore th' mantle, t'would likely nae be anna neutrals."

She snags the quill hanging on its ribbon, penning a short note she tacks it to the cork.

Gentles,

One who raises blade rather than merely voicing opposition has committed an action that, rather than maintaining a balance, tilts the scale. The path of neutrality is narrow and obscured with hidden pitfalls. One may seek the path by following a map yet, only when one actually walks the path shall one find the perils that are strewn thereon. Seek not the path upon a parchment but within ones inner heart and being.

Lift blade rather than voice, and thou mayest find thou hast stubbed ones foot against a rock. Beware, for mayhap behind that rock, may rest a sleeping lion, or under that rock may rest a viper, or above that rock may soar a regal bird of prey.

One who embraces the path of neutrality has within that embrace the might of influence. One must wield that might judiciously, free to voice opposition and/or support for a cause found heinous or just in his sight. Yet, when one lifts blade in support or in opposition, one has left the narrow path and now trods the wide road, clearly declaring, by dint of blood and steel, the road he has chosen to walk.

By so defining the road one has chosen, it should come as no surprise that one is then defined by the chosen path as loyal or renegade and no longer one who walks the path of influence and neutrality but that of action.

Jona,
Common as the come.

She hurries away from the corkboard.

The serving kids, sporting their famous "Marx the Beaver for Overlord" T-Shirts, snicker and giggle behind the bar. Marcus pipes up, "What are the odds on Jonalyn making Overlord, Hubie?" Al snickers, Hubie guffaws, "Marcus, that many zeros won't fit on the betting slips." Nemo drops two stacks of dishes in the kitchen.

[DoS Archive]

From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 06 Aug 1998 21:00:45 EDT

Duc de Clermont,

Good Duke, you state your position on the paramount importance of the challenge itself as if it were gospel. I assure you that many duelists would not agree with that stance. Billy Ray, for example, is of the belief that all challengers should be made to face a test of Worthiness, regardless of their qualifications. He is but one example, thoughts on the issue are widely varying with no real majority that I have seen of yet.

Where the Overlord is one who does not share this view of yours, it is more difficult for one to declare himself Neutral and hold tightly to that stance. Certainly one can want the battle to take place, but when one raises a blade to assist it, he has taken a stance against the beliefs of the Overlord and put his neutrality in question.

You accuse me, Sir, of avoiding your question. Yet I gave to you the same answer I supply here. It is true that I have not stated precisely how I would have acted were I the Overlord in this case, though I hardly see how it is relevant nor am I well enough acquainted with Evan to answer the question without doubt. This is a borderline case and I'd not fault Dalamar for the action he took, nor had he not acted at all. Reasonable opinions will vary
on the issue, but I will be quite surprised if, when this happens again, the Overlord then does not follow the same course of action that Dalamar has.

~Kalamere...

[DoS Archive]

From: xvevan@aol.com (XvEvan)
Date: 06 Aug 1998 22:24:48 EDT




"Billy Ray, for example, is of the belief that all challengers should be made to face a test of Worthiness, regardless of their qualifications. -Kalamere

Try using your own words and stop speaking for some dueler who could kick every one's ass. He left for some reason, and if he comes back, well lets hope. He brought life to this sport. But, try pulling your own self about these boards stop using Billy.

-Evan rush Rynth

[DoS Archive]

From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 00:50:41 EDT

Evan,

I am sorry that the point I was attempting to illustrate elluded you. In the future, I will attempt to use smaller words.

When I make the point that many duelists have differing views on the topic, it does little good to merely use my own. If it is using Billy's name that bothers you, perhaps it will serve to discuss Iain MacKenzie. Though also now retired, Iain despises the testing of Barons, but otherwise has little care. In many instances, Iain has voiced a desire to see the Test of Worthiness, rather than the direct confrontation.

I tend to find those who can draw examples from only their own past, to be mostly unhelpfull. Such missives generally read as self-serving recitals of their lives accomplishments, rather than a legitimate addition to the debate. That is not to say I do not do so on occassion, but where there is a prominent figure who demonstrates exactly the idea that I am attempting to illustrate, it serves much better to use that person than myself.

That said, feel free to add further to the discussion, but I would prefer not to be the object of you misguided critique of debate style.

Respectfully,
~Kalamere Ar'Din...

[DoS Archive]

From: beatle6666@aol.com (Beatle6666)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 10:27:48 EDT

::tacks up a little note, no one really wants to hear him::
<<Fact: Evan was Neutral
Fact: Evan stepped in ta fight fer Seraph, so Seraph could have a chance ta remove Dal>>

Evan was neutral. What's causing some people problems are what exactly is neutral. Does it mean don't take sides at all, or take sides as you see fit? Does this apply in this case(Evan and Dal), or was Evan just openly going against the overlord? These questions will remain unanswered, and there will always be mixed views on neutrality, so that keeps posting boards like these in business. I'm not saying I'm for or against the opinion I just stated,
I'm "neutral." He heh. Also, I wouldn't bally well care if I was made renegade if I was truly against the overlord, maybe even was truly against the overlord, maybe he wasn't. Oh well, life goes on. This will be my last post concerning this, lord knows I posted too much for my own good. (Not you Dal). ::leaves, cackling up a storm::

Jozzi

Master At Arms

[DoS Archive]

From: baphelocl@aol.com (Bapheloc L)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 16:13:12 EDT

So my question then is, especially to the Overlord. If Neutral Barons are supposed to be fence sitters to stay out of events, especially with regards to challenges to the Overlord, then why should an Overlord get involved in a Neutral's challenge? I simply ask this for the reason that is has been leaked to me that Dal plans on stepping in for Lupton against me? Dal is Overlord, Lupton is Neutral, often times
renegade publically in attitude towards, Dal, and I am a Warlord. So Dal is going to be hypocritcal and Interceede for a Neutral who is supposedly neither for or against the Overlord, so why would the Overlord get involved? Because he potentially sees me more as a threat if I become Baron? Why not then switch Lupton's alignment to Loyal and be public about it then?

I have stated before that any who stand by Lupton or aid Lupton in this challenge I feel is condoning his actions of Betrayal towards myself last year. And I would figure that the Overlord who is involved with the Baron's ex-wife would not stand by such a man who has hurt his love as he has. All I can say simply, is if the Overlord gets involved in this personal matter between myself and Baron Lupton, then he too is making it personal between me
and him. I will act accordingly then.



Honor to thyself, Respect to others,

Baphelocutis est Lathadoscia



::sealed in wax by the signet ring stamp of the royal family Lathadoscia::

[DoS Archive]

From: xvevan@aol.com (XvEvan)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 18:03:38 EDT



If it is using Billy's name that bothers you, perhaps it will serve to discuss Iain MacKenzie. -Kal

I said use your own damn words, pal. Try and reason with what I said. You are not Billy and *far* from it. Though your last post did show some improvement.

-Evan Rush Rynth

[DoS Archive]

From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 18:08:40 EDT

Baph,

Leaving the personalities and past history out of this equation, I must say that I do not find it hypocritical at all for an Overlord to intercede on behalf of a neutral baron. Specifically, this is because the issue of alignment is from the Baron to the Overlord and not vice versa.

As to the idea of Dalamar realigning Lupton to Loyal, it should be noted that this is not a possibility. I will grant you that the current phrasing of the rules make it appear so, but how much sense would that make when said Baron can just as easily place himself back to the original alignment? I took the time to speak with Lady Girvin on the matter this afternoon, and she agreed that this was a misstatement in the rules which will be rectified.

Lastly, it seems to me that Dalamar is an Overlord who, not only is an exceptional duelist, but who also finds pleasure in the political side of the title. A politician looking at this match, might see intercession on behalf of a Neutral Baron, as a bargaining piece. A tool to push that Baron towards loyalty and perhaps a realignment in the near future.

Again, I do not know the dealings between Dalamar and Lupton, nor do I wish to become embroiled in your personal feud with Lutpon. I simply write to put forth the idea that an intercession from Dalamar would not be hypocritical and from a political standpoint it would make a great deal of sense.

~Kalamere...

[DoS Archive]

From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 18:18:13 EDT

Kalamere, I wish to argue with only one small point this time. You write, "Lastly, it seems to me that Dalamar is an Overlord who, not only is an exceptional duelist, but who also finds pleasure in the political side of the title. A politician looking at this match, might see intercession on behalf of a Neutral Baron, as a bargaining piece. A tool to push that Baron towards loyalty and perhaps a
realignment in the near future."
I happen to know for a fact that this is not the case. If you are curious as to the real state of affairs, I will enlighten you. Please take into mind that everything I am about to say comes from Lupton himself, either said to me or inferred from what he said.
Lupton as declared himself Neutral. According to his own words, to me, alone, at a time when I had no reason to say anything, to anyone, he informed me that he and Dalamar had worked out a "deal." He would declare himself Neutral, duel Baphe, and afterwords declare himself a Renegade. The idea I got was that Dalamar considers Bapheloc a more dangerous foe than Lupton, and plans to use them against each other. At the same time, Lupton knows how
much Bapheloc despises him and wishes to use Dalamar against Baphe.



The White Duke

[DoS Archive]

From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 18:39:58 EDT

>> Try using your own words and stop speaking for some dueler who could kick every one's ass. He left for some reason, and if he comes back, well lets hope. He brought life to this sport. But, try pulling your own self about these boards stop using Billy. <<

What the...??

::wanders off, wondering who did a number in Evan's corn flakes this morning::

[DoS Archive]

From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 18:47:06 EDT

>>Lupton as declared himself Neutral. According to his own words, to me, alone, at a time when I had no reason to say anything, to anyone, he informed me that he and Dalamar had worked out a "deal." He would declare himself Neutral, duel Baphe, and afterwords declare himself a Renegade. The idea I got was that Dalamar considers Bapheloc a more dangerous foe than Lupton, and plans to use them against each other.
<<

Percival~

I certainly hope that you have proof of these statements, or else this situation is going to be blown even more out of porportion than it already is.


~Sidartha Elgarette~
Swordslady (again)
All-Star, TDL
Captain, Dracoern Highlands
Duchess of the Eastern Duchy
New Mountainside

[DoS Archive]

From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 19:00:16 EDT

Duc de Clermont,

No argument there at all. My thoughts on the issue were made without consideration of the actual circumstances. Without knowing the details, I still felt that there was an issue to be addressed.

With your addition, you have voiced a knowledge of the specifics and expanded the ground of debate. For that I thank you. If only you had explored these facts in light of Baph's missive, we would further ground to write upon.

While tempted to do so myself, I first extend the invitation to you. Knowing the facts, as you do, what is your response to Baph's accusation of hypocrisy?

I remain,
~Kalamere Ar'Din...

[DoS Archive]

From: sonjasavge@aol.com (SonjaSavge)
Date: 07 Aug 1998 19:10:01 EDT

Evan wrote: " I said use your own damn words, pal. Try and reason with what I said. You are not Billy and *far* from it. Though your last post did show some improvement."

Kalamere can use anyone he wants as an example in illustrating his point. What you fail to realize is that he IS using his own words - based his own perceptions - further based on many, many, MANY interactions with Billy Ray and Iain MacKenzie. This does not mean he thinks he is Billy Ray or Iain MacKenzie or Sonja Savage.

If anyone responding to this debate knows Billy Ray the best, it is Kalamere Ar'Din, Former Overlord of DoS, Former DoS Coordinator, Once Historical Archivist, Once Statistics Keeper of the Warlord Rankings, and a Duelist of DoS for more than four years (to my recollection and records).

When it comes to analyzing the politics and subtleties of DoS - past, present, and future - I'll listen to what Kalamere has to say over a thousand duelists like yourself. And trust me, Kalamere and I do not often see eye to eye on a lot of finer points, but I damn well respect his opinion and thoughts because he's well-informed, level-headed, intellectual, respectful, and intuitive.

Why don't YOU try and reason what he is saying. So far, the only one who thinks Kalamere is saying he's Billy Ray is you. Quit seeing what you want to read and focus on what is actually there.

-S