From: kenman9696@aol.com (Kenman9696)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 00:09:06 EDT
As of late, there has been much debate over the banishment of a certain Baron to Renegade status. My thoughts on this matter and others accociated with Baronial issues may differ from everyone else's in the entire free world. Read on.....(hehe)
There is no need to categorize the Barons of this sport in to little clusters marked 'Loyal', 'Neutral', and 'Renegade'.
Actions speak louder than any of these THREE words ever could.
so, to keep it short, (real short)...
by abolishing the silly pet names that we give the Baron's, and letting thier words and deeds speak for themselves, a darn lot of usueless garble and thoughtless challenges would disappear.
Is this a good thing? Let me know before I draw up a formal proposition for Official review.
Thank your for your time,
Ken
House Rising
~Complex is society, waging pressure upon our backs~
As of late............
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 03:15:47 EDT
Essentially, what would be the difference between having alignments and not? The simple fact that every baron would have the same rules as every other. While one may think the "political bickering" would change, it simply would not.
The alignments give the barons unique pros and cons. It gives the barons a chance to think about where they stand. One who thinks the overlord is a jerk either:
-swallows his pride and takes loyal status
-takes renegade status and faces the consequences. He can then go out of his way to take the overlord's crown another day, or assist someone else in doing it.
One who likes the overlord can:
-go with the title and take loyal, and defend the overlord
-try to get attention and/or a chance to challenge later, by taking renegade status.
These are decisions that are to be made by the barons taking their own responsibility. Having the baronial title means setting strict examples. The examples are percieved through responsible actions and decisions.
Being a baron/overlord is like being a parent. Both are looked at, for examples. Both must make responsible decisions with the "title" they wear, or they're not really that title.
"Anything in the world you hold in your hand or your heart needs care and responsibility. Otherwise, you were never truly holding it."
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
Date: 24 Aug 1998 03:15:47 EDT
Essentially, what would be the difference between having alignments and not? The simple fact that every baron would have the same rules as every other. While one may think the "political bickering" would change, it simply would not.
The alignments give the barons unique pros and cons. It gives the barons a chance to think about where they stand. One who thinks the overlord is a jerk either:
-swallows his pride and takes loyal status
-takes renegade status and faces the consequences. He can then go out of his way to take the overlord's crown another day, or assist someone else in doing it.
One who likes the overlord can:
-go with the title and take loyal, and defend the overlord
-try to get attention and/or a chance to challenge later, by taking renegade status.
These are decisions that are to be made by the barons taking their own responsibility. Having the baronial title means setting strict examples. The examples are percieved through responsible actions and decisions.
Being a baron/overlord is like being a parent. Both are looked at, for examples. Both must make responsible decisions with the "title" they wear, or they're not really that title.
"Anything in the world you hold in your hand or your heart needs care and responsibility. Otherwise, you were never truly holding it."
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 03:15:47 EDT
Essentially, what would be the difference between having alignments and not? The simple fact that every baron would have the same rules as every other. While one may think the "political bickering" would change, it simply would not.
The alignments give the barons unique pros and cons. It gives the barons a chance to think about where they stand. One who thinks the overlord is a jerk either:
-swallows his pride and takes loyal status
-takes renegade status and faces the consequences. He can then go out of his way to take the overlord's crown another day, or assist someone else in doing it.
One who likes the overlord can:
-go with the title and take loyal, and defend the overlord
-try to get attention and/or a chance to challenge later, by taking renegade status.
These are decisions that are to be made by the barons taking their own responsibility. Having the baronial title means setting strict examples. The examples are percieved through responsible actions and decisions.
Being a baron/overlord is like being a parent. Both are looked at, for examples. Both must make responsible decisions with the "title" they wear, or they're not really that title.
"Anything in the world you hold in your hand or your heart needs care and responsibility. Otherwise, you were never truly holding it."
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
Date: 24 Aug 1998 03:15:47 EDT
Essentially, what would be the difference between having alignments and not? The simple fact that every baron would have the same rules as every other. While one may think the "political bickering" would change, it simply would not.
The alignments give the barons unique pros and cons. It gives the barons a chance to think about where they stand. One who thinks the overlord is a jerk either:
-swallows his pride and takes loyal status
-takes renegade status and faces the consequences. He can then go out of his way to take the overlord's crown another day, or assist someone else in doing it.
One who likes the overlord can:
-go with the title and take loyal, and defend the overlord
-try to get attention and/or a chance to challenge later, by taking renegade status.
These are decisions that are to be made by the barons taking their own responsibility. Having the baronial title means setting strict examples. The examples are percieved through responsible actions and decisions.
Being a baron/overlord is like being a parent. Both are looked at, for examples. Both must make responsible decisions with the "title" they wear, or they're not really that title.
"Anything in the world you hold in your hand or your heart needs care and responsibility. Otherwise, you were never truly holding it."
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
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From: foxxgrrl@aol.com (Foxxgrrl)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 10:59:45 EDT
> Var, I have to disagree. With the possible exceptions of Ajay, Zen, and Avery, there is > not a single Baron I would point out to anyone as an "example" or a "role model." For the
> most part, our Barons are much like the rest of us.
Barons are seen by many as role models. The most obvious admirable characteristic is their skill with the blade, and when you begin to admire one aspect of a person, you're forced to examine all their characteristics. In this way, the Barons and Baronesses are under constant scrutiny to live up to the concept of role model that each spectator wants. And when someone behaves badly, they are challenged. It's as simple as that. People want the
Barons to be role models, and when they aren't, their reigns are threatened.
I'm not sure whether you feel Barons shouldn't be role models or whether our current Barons aren't role models. Still you've claimed that 3 of the Barons are role-model material. 3 out of 13. 23%. Are 23% of the participants in the Arena role models as well?
~Ally
Date: 24 Aug 1998 10:59:45 EDT
> Var, I have to disagree. With the possible exceptions of Ajay, Zen, and Avery, there is > not a single Baron I would point out to anyone as an "example" or a "role model." For the
> most part, our Barons are much like the rest of us.
Barons are seen by many as role models. The most obvious admirable characteristic is their skill with the blade, and when you begin to admire one aspect of a person, you're forced to examine all their characteristics. In this way, the Barons and Baronesses are under constant scrutiny to live up to the concept of role model that each spectator wants. And when someone behaves badly, they are challenged. It's as simple as that. People want the
Barons to be role models, and when they aren't, their reigns are threatened.
I'm not sure whether you feel Barons shouldn't be role models or whether our current Barons aren't role models. Still you've claimed that 3 of the Barons are role-model material. 3 out of 13. 23%. Are 23% of the participants in the Arena role models as well?
~Ally
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 11:27:06 EDT
Ken,
While I can not help but agree that actions do, and shall always, speak louder than words, there are alterior reasons for the declaration of alignment. Depending on the chosen alignment of one holding the title of baron, he or she shall be granted differing rights.
The simpleist of examples is that of challenge queues. One who declares himself loyal to the Overlord may be challenged but once a month with no possibility of a queue, whereas the Neutral and Renegade barons are subject to ongoing queues several times a month.
If stripped of the alignments, which set of rights would you have apply to the Barons as a whole? Who would have the right to stand against the Overlord in the usage of champions? This, a right that I believe crucial for as long as the Overlord may use a champion.
I fear that the most reasonable way is to retain the seperate rights is to retain the practice of alignment declaration.
Percival - as to your thoughts... The title of Baron has been with us for quite some time now, and I will agree with you that it has irrevocably changed the face of DoS. Perhaps it is too late to rid ourselves of it (assuming some would truly wish to), though I must admit I would like to see the staff take away the Neutral alignment. Despite that, however, I can not agree with you that the issue of respect is what has changed. Think back upon the
history of this place and I am certain you will recall a handfull of examples that make my point (and if not, I'll be happy to point them out to you.) Not all duelists respected each other nor did they act with honor. The enviornment is quite different, but I do not believe that the difference is quite as easilly grasped as the concept of respect.
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
Date: 24 Aug 1998 11:27:06 EDT
Ken,
While I can not help but agree that actions do, and shall always, speak louder than words, there are alterior reasons for the declaration of alignment. Depending on the chosen alignment of one holding the title of baron, he or she shall be granted differing rights.
The simpleist of examples is that of challenge queues. One who declares himself loyal to the Overlord may be challenged but once a month with no possibility of a queue, whereas the Neutral and Renegade barons are subject to ongoing queues several times a month.
If stripped of the alignments, which set of rights would you have apply to the Barons as a whole? Who would have the right to stand against the Overlord in the usage of champions? This, a right that I believe crucial for as long as the Overlord may use a champion.
I fear that the most reasonable way is to retain the seperate rights is to retain the practice of alignment declaration.
Percival - as to your thoughts... The title of Baron has been with us for quite some time now, and I will agree with you that it has irrevocably changed the face of DoS. Perhaps it is too late to rid ourselves of it (assuming some would truly wish to), though I must admit I would like to see the staff take away the Neutral alignment. Despite that, however, I can not agree with you that the issue of respect is what has changed. Think back upon the
history of this place and I am certain you will recall a handfull of examples that make my point (and if not, I'll be happy to point them out to you.) Not all duelists respected each other nor did they act with honor. The enviornment is quite different, but I do not believe that the difference is quite as easilly grasped as the concept of respect.
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 14:48:57 EDT
"Barons are seen by many as role models. The most obvious admirable characteristic is their skill with the blade, and when you begin to admire one aspect of a person, you're forced to examine all their characteristics. In this way, the Barons and Baronesses are under constant scrutiny to live up to the concept of role model that each spectator wants. And when someone behaves badly, they are challenged. It's as simple as that.
People want the
Barons to be role models, and when they aren't, their reigns are threatened."
Ally, I cannot agree with this. Our recent challenges have had little to do with whether or not the person in question was a "role model", but rather either the political or personal ambitions or goals of the challenger, or such simple reasons as personal enmity. At the same time, two of the three I named as the best suited to be role models were challenged this month. The reason Ajay is not challenged is not because people believe him to be
such an excellent role model, though he probably has the best claim to this status of all the Barons, but pure fear of the fact that his record of defenses is so impressive.
What is more, the single worst role model among the Barons has not yet been challenged since winning his ring. Several people made attempt, or delcared intent, but for one reason or another none of the challenges materialized. So I would have to disagree with your argument.
"I'm not sure whether you feel Barons shouldn't be role models or whether our current Barons aren't role models. Still you've claimed that 3 of the Barons are role-model material. 3 out of 13. 23%. Are 23% of the participants in the Arena role models as well?"
Hmmmmm. I could not say for sure. Several names come to mind as possible role models to various degrees. Kalamere, Unagi, Drakewyn, Jonalyn, and Khrys come to mind. All of them are problably better role models than most of our Barons. There are others as well. Whether they come to 23% or not, I would not think so. Howeever, most of the people I would have considered good role models are retired or rarely present. Those who are still here, and
whom I have listed, are more numerous numerically, if not by percentage, than examples amongst the Barons. Oh, add Marzan to that list.
Kalamere writes, "Despite that, however, I can not agree with you that the issue of respect is what has changed. Think back upon the
history of this place and I am certain you will recall a handfull of examples that make my point (and if not, I'll be happy to point them out to you.) Not all duelists respected each other nor did they act with honor. The enviornment is quite different, but I do not believe that the difference is quite as easilly grasped as the concept of respect."
No, ALL of the duelists here have never respected ALL of the other duelists here. However, there was a time when respect was the rule rather than he exception. I am sure you can quote amny examples of exceptions, but there was a time when the feeling of family that you and I have both talked about was a lot more accurate than it is these days. There was also a time when people who acted disrespectfully and
were called on it actually apoligized rather than justifying themselves. Thee exceptions have, of late, become the rules and the rules, of late, have become the exceptions.
The White Duke
Date: 24 Aug 1998 14:48:57 EDT
"Barons are seen by many as role models. The most obvious admirable characteristic is their skill with the blade, and when you begin to admire one aspect of a person, you're forced to examine all their characteristics. In this way, the Barons and Baronesses are under constant scrutiny to live up to the concept of role model that each spectator wants. And when someone behaves badly, they are challenged. It's as simple as that.
People want the
Barons to be role models, and when they aren't, their reigns are threatened."
Ally, I cannot agree with this. Our recent challenges have had little to do with whether or not the person in question was a "role model", but rather either the political or personal ambitions or goals of the challenger, or such simple reasons as personal enmity. At the same time, two of the three I named as the best suited to be role models were challenged this month. The reason Ajay is not challenged is not because people believe him to be
such an excellent role model, though he probably has the best claim to this status of all the Barons, but pure fear of the fact that his record of defenses is so impressive.
What is more, the single worst role model among the Barons has not yet been challenged since winning his ring. Several people made attempt, or delcared intent, but for one reason or another none of the challenges materialized. So I would have to disagree with your argument.
"I'm not sure whether you feel Barons shouldn't be role models or whether our current Barons aren't role models. Still you've claimed that 3 of the Barons are role-model material. 3 out of 13. 23%. Are 23% of the participants in the Arena role models as well?"
Hmmmmm. I could not say for sure. Several names come to mind as possible role models to various degrees. Kalamere, Unagi, Drakewyn, Jonalyn, and Khrys come to mind. All of them are problably better role models than most of our Barons. There are others as well. Whether they come to 23% or not, I would not think so. Howeever, most of the people I would have considered good role models are retired or rarely present. Those who are still here, and
whom I have listed, are more numerous numerically, if not by percentage, than examples amongst the Barons. Oh, add Marzan to that list.
Kalamere writes, "Despite that, however, I can not agree with you that the issue of respect is what has changed. Think back upon the
history of this place and I am certain you will recall a handfull of examples that make my point (and if not, I'll be happy to point them out to you.) Not all duelists respected each other nor did they act with honor. The enviornment is quite different, but I do not believe that the difference is quite as easilly grasped as the concept of respect."
No, ALL of the duelists here have never respected ALL of the other duelists here. However, there was a time when respect was the rule rather than he exception. I am sure you can quote amny examples of exceptions, but there was a time when the feeling of family that you and I have both talked about was a lot more accurate than it is these days. There was also a time when people who acted disrespectfully and
were called on it actually apoligized rather than justifying themselves. Thee exceptions have, of late, become the rules and the rules, of late, have become the exceptions.
The White Duke
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 15:16:10 EDT
Percival,
What Ally was saying, and what I was trying to say, is that the barons and overlord being a role model is an ideal. When in a sport, captains set an example by their behavior. Now while some captains don't seem to be living up to the ideal (not making references, just stating an example), it's still the basic concept that as a baron/overlord, it is usually the responsible thing to set an example. Parents set examples to their children (as
stated before), though some may not set a good example.
While you may still disagree, I feel that as a baron/overlord, it's a duty to act responsibly. While acting irresponsible or dishonorable will get you challenged a lot faster (generally), there are also those who do, as you say, challenge for political reasons. However, if there are two potential challenges that fall under your own political reasoning (i.e. want to remove a renegade), it seems more often than not the one disliked more
will be challenged. Some will challenge the nicer one, for it would be an honor to duel honorable barons. Generalizations, to put it simply, have different circumstances. That's why it's called a generalization.
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
Date: 24 Aug 1998 15:16:10 EDT
Percival,
What Ally was saying, and what I was trying to say, is that the barons and overlord being a role model is an ideal. When in a sport, captains set an example by their behavior. Now while some captains don't seem to be living up to the ideal (not making references, just stating an example), it's still the basic concept that as a baron/overlord, it is usually the responsible thing to set an example. Parents set examples to their children (as
stated before), though some may not set a good example.
While you may still disagree, I feel that as a baron/overlord, it's a duty to act responsibly. While acting irresponsible or dishonorable will get you challenged a lot faster (generally), there are also those who do, as you say, challenge for political reasons. However, if there are two potential challenges that fall under your own political reasoning (i.e. want to remove a renegade), it seems more often than not the one disliked more
will be challenged. Some will challenge the nicer one, for it would be an honor to duel honorable barons. Generalizations, to put it simply, have different circumstances. That's why it's called a generalization.
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
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From: rlupton@aol.com (RLupton)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 16:19:45 EDT
Barons and Overlords are not elected. They obtain and hold their titles by wounding and causing damage to those whom wish to remove them. Personality has no factor within the ring and thus has no factor on who becomes a Baron (excluding the possibility of tests and what not). For this reason, if a Baron is to be a role model, it is the skill of his blade which should solely be looked upon in judgement.
Not to say, however, that Barons need only be able to swing a blade. I believe it takes a certain type of person to properly hold a title. This belief is not due to reasons pertaining to role modes, but rather respect for our sport and community as a whole.
We are not examples of moral perfection or supreme honor. We are Warriors. We are duelists.
~Lupton est Dracoern
Thrice Baron of the Duel of Swords
Date: 24 Aug 1998 16:19:45 EDT
Barons and Overlords are not elected. They obtain and hold their titles by wounding and causing damage to those whom wish to remove them. Personality has no factor within the ring and thus has no factor on who becomes a Baron (excluding the possibility of tests and what not). For this reason, if a Baron is to be a role model, it is the skill of his blade which should solely be looked upon in judgement.
Not to say, however, that Barons need only be able to swing a blade. I believe it takes a certain type of person to properly hold a title. This belief is not due to reasons pertaining to role modes, but rather respect for our sport and community as a whole.
We are not examples of moral perfection or supreme honor. We are Warriors. We are duelists.
~Lupton est Dracoern
Thrice Baron of the Duel of Swords
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From: kenman9696@aol.com (Kenman9696)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 18:01:20 EDT
All who have voiced their feelings,
While I do appreciate the arguments that have been presented thusfar within this pile of
papers, I cannot
help feeling that this debate of sorts has turned in to what so many other
folders on this
board has become....Offtopic, and a waste of breath.
Please guys, c'mon, enough with quoting each other, thats quite bothersome, both for the
reader, the one
who posts the recycled words, and he who originally scrawled the quoted sentences.
If that is what it has to come to, maybe we should all just put our pens down and go take a nap.
::genuine frown as he signs::
Ken
House Rising
~Litigation got me thinking. In the window all these letters. This will be your own catastrophe. As you wait.
Zone Zero~
Date: 24 Aug 1998 18:01:20 EDT
All who have voiced their feelings,
While I do appreciate the arguments that have been presented thusfar within this pile of
papers, I cannot
help feeling that this debate of sorts has turned in to what so many other
folders on this
board has become....Offtopic, and a waste of breath.
Please guys, c'mon, enough with quoting each other, thats quite bothersome, both for the
reader, the one
who posts the recycled words, and he who originally scrawled the quoted sentences.
If that is what it has to come to, maybe we should all just put our pens down and go take a nap.
::genuine frown as he signs::
Ken
House Rising
~Litigation got me thinking. In the window all these letters. This will be your own catastrophe. As you wait.
Zone Zero~
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 18:23:57 EDT
Var, you write "While you may still disagree, I feel that as a baron/overlord, it's a duty to act responsibly."
Now THAT I can agree with! I will take it a step further though. As representatives of this sport and members of this community it is the duty of ALL of us to act responsibly. Yes, the Barons should set an example in this way.
The White Duke
Date: 24 Aug 1998 18:23:57 EDT
Var, you write "While you may still disagree, I feel that as a baron/overlord, it's a duty to act responsibly."
Now THAT I can agree with! I will take it a step further though. As representatives of this sport and members of this community it is the duty of ALL of us to act responsibly. Yes, the Barons should set an example in this way.
The White Duke
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From: sirduel@aol.com (Sir Duel)
Date: 08 Oct 1998 16:55:26 EDT
::notes this is exactly what he said before and sort of got bashed, wonders if it had to do with being a commoner:: ((In regards to Perci's reply))
((Nap))
Sir Coron de Copacheta
Healer Shaman and Poet of the Writer's Guild
Everyone must start at the bottom, even though some may forget that at the top.
Date: 08 Oct 1998 16:55:26 EDT
::notes this is exactly what he said before and sort of got bashed, wonders if it had to do with being a commoner:: ((In regards to Perci's reply))
((Nap))
Sir Coron de Copacheta
Healer Shaman and Poet of the Writer's Guild
Everyone must start at the bottom, even though some may forget that at the top.
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From: ytmeis@aol.com (YTMEIS)
Date: 09 Oct 1998 10:24:41 EDT
<<Please guys, c'mon, enough with quoting each other, thats quite bothersome, both for the
reader, the one
who posts the recycled words, and he who originally scrawled the quoted sentences.>>
Couldn't agree more, Ken.
- Jaem Triver, M@M@A
Capt., The Disengaged
Master-at-Master-at-Armship
Date: 09 Oct 1998 10:24:41 EDT
<<Please guys, c'mon, enough with quoting each other, thats quite bothersome, both for the
reader, the one
who posts the recycled words, and he who originally scrawled the quoted sentences.>>
Couldn't agree more, Ken.
- Jaem Triver, M@M@A
Capt., The Disengaged
Master-at-Master-at-Armship
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From: falablah@aol.com (Falablah)
Date: 09 Oct 1998 13:44:04 EDT
>Please guys, c'mon, enough with quoting each other, thats quite bothersome,
>both for the
>reader, the one
>who posts the recycled words, and he who originally scrawled the quoted
>sentences
The reason for all this quoting is because before, everyone whined about having words put in their mouth that they didn't say and arguements would be started over just "i didn't say that blah blah blah". Not that i agree with all the quoting here or not; just pointing out what the reasoning is...
~Falablah Dalegate~
~Emerald, Mage,Grand Master~
~Former Opal~
~Resident of the Outback~
~La de de da da....whowa whowa~
Date: 09 Oct 1998 13:44:04 EDT
>Please guys, c'mon, enough with quoting each other, thats quite bothersome,
>both for the
>reader, the one
>who posts the recycled words, and he who originally scrawled the quoted
>sentences
The reason for all this quoting is because before, everyone whined about having words put in their mouth that they didn't say and arguements would be started over just "i didn't say that blah blah blah". Not that i agree with all the quoting here or not; just pointing out what the reasoning is...
~Falablah Dalegate~
~Emerald, Mage,Grand Master~
~Former Opal~
~Resident of the Outback~
~La de de da da....whowa whowa~