From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 11 Sep 1998 23:06:26 EDT
Overlord, Fellow Barons and others concerned,
As I am sure by now each of you have seen the recent policy pronouncement issued by the Overlord, it likely comes as no surprise that I now write this petition for realignment as required by the standards and traditions of DoS. The Overlord and I have spoken over the issue for some time and seem to have come to a common ground. It will please me greatly to take a seat in Loyal support of a man whom I have long considered a friend despite our
previous departure in views.
Though uncharacteristic, I shall keep this missive brief and end it here.
I remain,
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
Twice Overlord, Thrice Baron
Alingment and Policy
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From: carnage669@aol.com (Carnage669)
Date: 12 Sep 1998 09:42:33 EDT
::reads Dals posts carfully, then Kal's post again::
::Scribbles a small note::
Kalamere,
I have read Dal's change of policy, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, he seems to state that he is only changing his policy towards those of Baron rank...What of those who are not Baron Rank? Will he still offer a test of worthiness to the Warlords who come up and challenge him?? If this was your intent all along, please forgive me, but why fight for rights just for the elite, when we should be fighting for rights for all of the DoS community. If
he were to discard the Test of Worthiness all together, that would be a different story...but as he said, and I quote "I will not seek the aid of a champion in any challenge I receive from a duelist currently holding the rank of Baron."
Yes, this is a small victory, and one I did not expect to see, but I ask you this Kalamere, if we all were to only fight for rights of the higher class, what would happenen to all of the little people who get stepped on as the higher classes walk around??
::Thinks for a second and mutters to himself:: Maybe this wasn't one of me shortest notes...oh well.... ::Walks away deep in thought, then, remembering he didn't sign it, rushes back to the posts and writes his name in red ink::
Humbly,
Cletus
House Rising
Guardian of Polaris
Eternal Common person of DoS
Member of The Rising Stars (TDL)
::Walks off lost in thought::
Date: 12 Sep 1998 09:42:33 EDT
::reads Dals posts carfully, then Kal's post again::
::Scribbles a small note::
Kalamere,
I have read Dal's change of policy, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, he seems to state that he is only changing his policy towards those of Baron rank...What of those who are not Baron Rank? Will he still offer a test of worthiness to the Warlords who come up and challenge him?? If this was your intent all along, please forgive me, but why fight for rights just for the elite, when we should be fighting for rights for all of the DoS community. If
he were to discard the Test of Worthiness all together, that would be a different story...but as he said, and I quote "I will not seek the aid of a champion in any challenge I receive from a duelist currently holding the rank of Baron."
Yes, this is a small victory, and one I did not expect to see, but I ask you this Kalamere, if we all were to only fight for rights of the higher class, what would happenen to all of the little people who get stepped on as the higher classes walk around??
::Thinks for a second and mutters to himself:: Maybe this wasn't one of me shortest notes...oh well.... ::Walks away deep in thought, then, remembering he didn't sign it, rushes back to the posts and writes his name in red ink::
Humbly,
Cletus
House Rising
Guardian of Polaris
Eternal Common person of DoS
Member of The Rising Stars (TDL)
::Walks off lost in thought::
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 12 Sep 1998 10:14:00 EDT
Cletus,
The short answer is that I do not see it as a fight for rights, but rather for what is right itself. As I do not know you well, I must assume that you are unfamiliar with me. Perhaps there has been some confusion as to my ideals, in that some believe I hold the same beliefs as house Rising. I do not.
While I count myself friend to the White Duke and I can understand the views of House Rising, I share but few of them. My contention is, and has been since the Test of Worthiness was first introduced, that a Baron is inherently "worthy." As such, a Baron should not, in my eyes, be put to a Test of Worthiness.
As far as testing warlords, there is no bright line rule. The only qualification a warlord must show, to be eligible for challenge, is that s/he has defeated ten or fifteen peers. Whether that same warlord has gone undefeated while gaining those victories or has lost thirty along the way, is never questioned. This and several other considerations, which I'll not bore you with here, make it impossible to say that every warlord is worthy to hold a
titled rank. As such, I cannot bring issue to the use of the test in their regard.
I, myself, put a warlord challenger to the Test of Worthiness when last I held the crown of Overlord. I am not so hypocritical as to selectively forget that and ask Dalamar to cease the practice.
Respectfully,
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
Date: 12 Sep 1998 10:14:00 EDT
Cletus,
The short answer is that I do not see it as a fight for rights, but rather for what is right itself. As I do not know you well, I must assume that you are unfamiliar with me. Perhaps there has been some confusion as to my ideals, in that some believe I hold the same beliefs as house Rising. I do not.
While I count myself friend to the White Duke and I can understand the views of House Rising, I share but few of them. My contention is, and has been since the Test of Worthiness was first introduced, that a Baron is inherently "worthy." As such, a Baron should not, in my eyes, be put to a Test of Worthiness.
As far as testing warlords, there is no bright line rule. The only qualification a warlord must show, to be eligible for challenge, is that s/he has defeated ten or fifteen peers. Whether that same warlord has gone undefeated while gaining those victories or has lost thirty along the way, is never questioned. This and several other considerations, which I'll not bore you with here, make it impossible to say that every warlord is worthy to hold a
titled rank. As such, I cannot bring issue to the use of the test in their regard.
I, myself, put a warlord challenger to the Test of Worthiness when last I held the crown of Overlord. I am not so hypocritical as to selectively forget that and ask Dalamar to cease the practice.
Respectfully,
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
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From: valmion@aol.com (Valmion)
Date: 12 Sep 1998 11:01:08 EDT
Gentlemen,
If I might add a thought here. For a baron not to recieve a "test of worthiness" is really a mute point, seeing how the baron must be a renegade to issue such a challenge to the Overlord. As history shows, very few renegades make it past the challenge que of warlords to ever get the opportunity to issue challenge to the Overlord.
Yet, I have been absent from the arena of late and perhaps some rules have changed that I am unaware of. If this is the case, please excuse this reply. If not, then the victory spoken of here is little indeed.
Sincerely,
Valmion
Date: 12 Sep 1998 11:01:08 EDT
Gentlemen,
If I might add a thought here. For a baron not to recieve a "test of worthiness" is really a mute point, seeing how the baron must be a renegade to issue such a challenge to the Overlord. As history shows, very few renegades make it past the challenge que of warlords to ever get the opportunity to issue challenge to the Overlord.
Yet, I have been absent from the arena of late and perhaps some rules have changed that I am unaware of. If this is the case, please excuse this reply. If not, then the victory spoken of here is little indeed.
Sincerely,
Valmion
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 12 Sep 1998 13:09:58 EDT
Valmion,
If I may point out a small historical fact? History as shown that Overlords, or the policies of Overlords, change, so do alignments of the various Barons. Kalamere himself, I believe, went from Loyal to Renegade once on the accession of a NEW Overlord, and immediately offered challenge. I do not believe he is the only Baron to ever do this, either. Likewise, Barons have other reasons for changing their alignments as well. Often, if not always or
even usually, they accompany this change with an immediate challenge, if they have the right to do the cycle they change alignment. In such a case, the Test becomes very far from a moot point, wouldn't you say?
I would agree with Cletus, in saying that this does not go far enough. At the same time, I am always glad to see a change for the better. Hopefully, this will be the first of several. Probably not, however.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Captain, Rising Stars TDL
Triumvir of House Rising
Date: 12 Sep 1998 13:09:58 EDT
Valmion,
If I may point out a small historical fact? History as shown that Overlords, or the policies of Overlords, change, so do alignments of the various Barons. Kalamere himself, I believe, went from Loyal to Renegade once on the accession of a NEW Overlord, and immediately offered challenge. I do not believe he is the only Baron to ever do this, either. Likewise, Barons have other reasons for changing their alignments as well. Often, if not always or
even usually, they accompany this change with an immediate challenge, if they have the right to do the cycle they change alignment. In such a case, the Test becomes very far from a moot point, wouldn't you say?
I would agree with Cletus, in saying that this does not go far enough. At the same time, I am always glad to see a change for the better. Hopefully, this will be the first of several. Probably not, however.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Captain, Rising Stars TDL
Triumvir of House Rising
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 10:16:26 EDT
Valmion,
The issue of baronial challenges to the Overlordship is far from moot. It is not something that has become more popular during Dalamar's reign and your absence, but rather a long standing fact of challenge. I've taken the liberty of running some of the statistics to further emphasize this.
~ Since the introduction of the Baron rank there have been 14 Overlords (technically 15, however I omit Max as he was removed by the warlord winner of the baron tournament and hence had no possibility of being challenged by a baron.) Eleven of those Overlords have been challenged by Renegade Barons (78.57%). If you wish to remove Dalamar from that list as your qualification appears
to imply, then the number is only slightly different. Of those 13 Overlords, 11 were challenged by renegades (76.92%).
~ The 14 Overlords since the introduction of the rank Baron have been challenged a grand total of 48 times* (this includes 2 challenges from warlords never actually fought). Of those 48 challenges, 14 were from those holding the title of Baron (29.16%). Discounting Dalamar and the 15 challenges he has faced, the previous 13 Overlords fought 33 challenges, of which 12 were brought
by barons (36.36%).
~ Furthermore - if one were to deduct the number of challenges brought by tournament winners, as Barons are obviously not eligible to be in a tournament, the percentage becomes even higher. Twelve of the total challenges were from tournament winners, dropping the new total of challenges to 36, of which baron challenges make up 38.89%. Again, discounting Dalamar's reign and the 4 tournament winners he has faced, the total is dropped to 25
challenges, 48% of which were brought by barons.
Whether you prefer the lower numbers or the higher, at a minimum 1 out of every 3.4 challengers will hold the title Baron, while only 1 in 4.3 Overlords will leave the rank without having been challenged by a Baron.. Certainly not as often seen as challenges from Warlords but one can certainly not rule them out as inconsequential.
~ Kalamere Ar'Din...
~ for the record. the following is the list of challenges since the institution of the baron rank, challengers listed in maroon indicate tournament winners, challengers in bold indicate those holding the title Baron ~
Xeno (15)
- Kalamere
Kalamere (16)
- Siera Redwin
Siera (17)
- valmion
- Elijah
- Connor
- Falire
- Percival
Percival (18)
- Feadur
Feadur (19)
- Devon
- Gnimish
Gnimish (20)
- Ian
- Ambrossious
- Athlstan
- Dazinghard ** (this challenge never fought, Gnim retired)
Morgan Crow (21)
- Tukros
- Daegarth
Daegarth (22)
- Athlstan
Athlstan (23)
- Rennor
- WickedDeth
- Elijah
- Raiyko
- Kickinit ** (tournament winner, never excersized right to challenge)
- Alais
Alais (24)
- Leto
Leto (25)
- Simini
- Lupton
- Elijah
- Kalamere
Kalamere (26)
- Ellisa
- DamonBlack
- Athlstan
Athlstan (27)
- Sau
- Dalamar
Dalamar (28)
- Eliah
- Ulath
- Huma
- Draven
- Nova
- Marzan
- Topaz
- Peri
- Gnim
- Evan
- Daegarth
- Skyler
- Adonai
- Rand
- Seraph
Date: 13 Sep 1998 10:16:26 EDT
Valmion,
The issue of baronial challenges to the Overlordship is far from moot. It is not something that has become more popular during Dalamar's reign and your absence, but rather a long standing fact of challenge. I've taken the liberty of running some of the statistics to further emphasize this.
~ Since the introduction of the Baron rank there have been 14 Overlords (technically 15, however I omit Max as he was removed by the warlord winner of the baron tournament and hence had no possibility of being challenged by a baron.) Eleven of those Overlords have been challenged by Renegade Barons (78.57%). If you wish to remove Dalamar from that list as your qualification appears
to imply, then the number is only slightly different. Of those 13 Overlords, 11 were challenged by renegades (76.92%).
~ The 14 Overlords since the introduction of the rank Baron have been challenged a grand total of 48 times* (this includes 2 challenges from warlords never actually fought). Of those 48 challenges, 14 were from those holding the title of Baron (29.16%). Discounting Dalamar and the 15 challenges he has faced, the previous 13 Overlords fought 33 challenges, of which 12 were brought
by barons (36.36%).
~ Furthermore - if one were to deduct the number of challenges brought by tournament winners, as Barons are obviously not eligible to be in a tournament, the percentage becomes even higher. Twelve of the total challenges were from tournament winners, dropping the new total of challenges to 36, of which baron challenges make up 38.89%. Again, discounting Dalamar's reign and the 4 tournament winners he has faced, the total is dropped to 25
challenges, 48% of which were brought by barons.
Whether you prefer the lower numbers or the higher, at a minimum 1 out of every 3.4 challengers will hold the title Baron, while only 1 in 4.3 Overlords will leave the rank without having been challenged by a Baron.. Certainly not as often seen as challenges from Warlords but one can certainly not rule them out as inconsequential.
~ Kalamere Ar'Din...
~ for the record. the following is the list of challenges since the institution of the baron rank, challengers listed in maroon indicate tournament winners, challengers in bold indicate those holding the title Baron ~
Xeno (15)
- Kalamere
Kalamere (16)
- Siera Redwin
Siera (17)
- valmion
- Elijah
- Connor
- Falire
- Percival
Percival (18)
- Feadur
Feadur (19)
- Devon
- Gnimish
Gnimish (20)
- Ian
- Ambrossious
- Athlstan
- Dazinghard ** (this challenge never fought, Gnim retired)
Morgan Crow (21)
- Tukros
- Daegarth
Daegarth (22)
- Athlstan
Athlstan (23)
- Rennor
- WickedDeth
- Elijah
- Raiyko
- Kickinit ** (tournament winner, never excersized right to challenge)
- Alais
Alais (24)
- Leto
Leto (25)
- Simini
- Lupton
- Elijah
- Kalamere
Kalamere (26)
- Ellisa
- DamonBlack
- Athlstan
Athlstan (27)
- Sau
- Dalamar
Dalamar (28)
- Eliah
- Ulath
- Huma
- Draven
- Nova
- Marzan
- Topaz
- Peri
- Gnim
- Evan
- Daegarth
- Skyler
- Adonai
- Rand
- Seraph
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From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 23:06:56 EDT
>>The issue of baronial challenges to the Overlordship is far from moot.<<
Personally, Kal, I think it ironic that Valmion used the word mute not moot. I believe he meant the latter, but many are mute concerning their opinions.
Date: 13 Sep 1998 23:06:56 EDT
>>The issue of baronial challenges to the Overlordship is far from moot.<<
Personally, Kal, I think it ironic that Valmion used the word mute not moot. I believe he meant the latter, but many are mute concerning their opinions.
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 11:43:26 EDT
Collie,
I am certain that, if Valmion meant that word as it was written and indeed what I thought was a typo was actually what he meant, he will not hesitate to inform me of it. Before making the assumption that many of the challenging Barons were "mute" in their opinions however, perhaps you should take another look at the list. Elijah is on there twice, Ian once, myself, Adonai, etc. Few of these renegades were short of opinion or unwilling to make
themselves heard.
~Kalamere...
Date: 14 Sep 1998 11:43:26 EDT
Collie,
I am certain that, if Valmion meant that word as it was written and indeed what I thought was a typo was actually what he meant, he will not hesitate to inform me of it. Before making the assumption that many of the challenging Barons were "mute" in their opinions however, perhaps you should take another look at the list. Elijah is on there twice, Ian once, myself, Adonai, etc. Few of these renegades were short of opinion or unwilling to make
themselves heard.
~Kalamere...
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From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 15:15:30 EDT
>> Before making the assumption that many of the challenging Barons were "mute" in their opinions however, perhaps you should take another look at the list. <<
Kal,
Where did I use the word, Baron? I said people.
Collie
Date: 14 Sep 1998 15:15:30 EDT
>> Before making the assumption that many of the challenging Barons were "mute" in their opinions however, perhaps you should take another look at the list. <<
Kal,
Where did I use the word, Baron? I said people.
Collie
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From: valmion@aol.com (Valmion)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:17:10 EDT
::thinks he should stay mute, chuckling as he reads the replies::
Kalamere,
My goodness man, you amaze me with those statistics you keep pulling out. I must admidt, my response was perhaps clouded by Moralitor's treatment, when the community knew he was going to challenge Dalamar. It does seem that matters of House Questrion tend to cloud my vision to the rest of the community as a whole.
Whether my point was "moot", or I should remain "mute", I will say thanks for opening my eyes to the truth. I am always humbled by your elegant words.
Collie,
Nice to see you again m'lady ;)
Cheers,
Valmion
Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:17:10 EDT
::thinks he should stay mute, chuckling as he reads the replies::
Kalamere,
My goodness man, you amaze me with those statistics you keep pulling out. I must admidt, my response was perhaps clouded by Moralitor's treatment, when the community knew he was going to challenge Dalamar. It does seem that matters of House Questrion tend to cloud my vision to the rest of the community as a whole.
Whether my point was "moot", or I should remain "mute", I will say thanks for opening my eyes to the truth. I am always humbled by your elegant words.
Collie,
Nice to see you again m'lady ;)
Cheers,
Valmion