Date: 9/3/97 4:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: Bapheloc
Swords Community,
The time has come for all ignorant fools who can not take the time to learn how to challenge to be punished and punished severly. After I spent alot of my time and energy to educate and inform the public yet again *TWO* more instances have occured where people can not follow the rules. My answer to this, while and if I remain a Baron, is that all such infractions and disrespect will be punished to the worst extremes I can convince the Barons Council to enforce.
A noted Warlord, like Draven, with experience and time within these duels including a previous title holder, and one SwordsBoy, could not even wait to the Standings to be released to officaly announce a completed challenge before viciously with greed attack a new title holder and one who just defended their title. My vote will be to cast down these duelers, have their challenges voided for the rest of the cycle and their peer wins stripped. I would if I could ban such infidels from the sport.
Learn the sport, and learn respect, or suffer otherwise.
Baphelocutis est Lathadoscia
Holder of the 1st Baron's Ring of DoS.
Enough!
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Date: 9/3/97 6:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: IainMacKnz
Colleen:
Either I am to understand that you and Lord Altruis are calling the Overlord a liar, or you are making a point which has utterly no relevance.
Whether Lord Altruis posted his challenge on the boards is utterly irrelevant, if he issued challenge via post to the Overlord and the Standings Keeper. As the Overlord has stated that he did, in fact, receive challenge from Lord Altruis via post, one can only conclude that he is either lying, or Lord Altruis failed to follow proper procedure.
Which is it?
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
From: IainMacKnz
Colleen:
Either I am to understand that you and Lord Altruis are calling the Overlord a liar, or you are making a point which has utterly no relevance.
Whether Lord Altruis posted his challenge on the boards is utterly irrelevant, if he issued challenge via post to the Overlord and the Standings Keeper. As the Overlord has stated that he did, in fact, receive challenge from Lord Altruis via post, one can only conclude that he is either lying, or Lord Altruis failed to follow proper procedure.
Which is it?
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
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Date: 9/3/97 9:04 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: PrlUnicorn
Iain,
I never called the overlord a liar... I said it was not in a public manner... Kindly don't put words in my mouth... My general point? Had that challenge come from anyone, but Draven... Dalamar would likely have blown it off... or written a letter stating the challenge was invalid...
Next point Iain... No one is perfect. People are far from it.
One more thing... I note that in Dalamars original posting in another place... He complains about being challenged, but not about the possibility of it being invalid if he knew this to be so...why didn't he simply state it? No offense to Dal.. but I don't see anyone ragging on him for not catching that in the first place...
Colleen
From: PrlUnicorn
Iain,
I never called the overlord a liar... I said it was not in a public manner... Kindly don't put words in my mouth... My general point? Had that challenge come from anyone, but Draven... Dalamar would likely have blown it off... or written a letter stating the challenge was invalid...
Next point Iain... No one is perfect. People are far from it.
One more thing... I note that in Dalamars original posting in another place... He complains about being challenged, but not about the possibility of it being invalid if he knew this to be so...why didn't he simply state it? No offense to Dal.. but I don't see anyone ragging on him for not catching that in the first place...
Colleen
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Date: 9/3/97 9:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: IainMacKnz
Colleen:
I feel compelled to note that you are straining a friendship.
You asked a question. I answered it, and expressed my disappointment that Lord Altruis had overlooked a point in the rules. For my trouble, I received less than cordial remarks from you both; both of which alluded to the fact that Lord Altruis hadn't publicly posted his challenge, and seeming to ask why anyone was concerned, since he hadn't done so.
I did not put words in your mouth. I stated that the point was irrelevant, and the only way it could *be* relevant was if you were calling the Overlord a liar. That is fact, not opinion, and it is not expressing your opinion for you. Whether Lord Altruis refrained from posting his challenge publicly has not a thing to do with whether his challenge was improper and inappropriate. Baphelocuitis' comment was that Lord Altruis officially announced a challenge. Notification of the Overlord and the
Standings Keeper *constitute* officially announcing a challenge. You wonder what people are reading; we read the Overlord's words. Your comments carried the implication that you were contradiciting Baphelocutis; given the facts, you can only be contradicting the Overlord as well.
In reference to the remainder of your comments, it is not my place to answer for the Overlord. This discussion was not about the Overlord, or the mutual disagreement between he and Lord Altruis. It is about failing to follow written procedures.
Should you wish to engage in an Eglarettian defense of Lord Altruis, Colleen, feel free, but I will treat it in the expected manner. I have little patience for those who err and - rather than say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake" - scream about how they are being tormented. (It should be noted that I, and many others, are quick to forgive those who simply admit error and move on. Those who do so have earned the right not to be torn apart by vulture's talons.) I have less patience for those who follow
along behind such individuals and defend them.
Frankly, my thoughts at the moment are that Ecore is dead, and there is no need for someone to replace him.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
From: IainMacKnz
Colleen:
I feel compelled to note that you are straining a friendship.
You asked a question. I answered it, and expressed my disappointment that Lord Altruis had overlooked a point in the rules. For my trouble, I received less than cordial remarks from you both; both of which alluded to the fact that Lord Altruis hadn't publicly posted his challenge, and seeming to ask why anyone was concerned, since he hadn't done so.
I did not put words in your mouth. I stated that the point was irrelevant, and the only way it could *be* relevant was if you were calling the Overlord a liar. That is fact, not opinion, and it is not expressing your opinion for you. Whether Lord Altruis refrained from posting his challenge publicly has not a thing to do with whether his challenge was improper and inappropriate. Baphelocuitis' comment was that Lord Altruis officially announced a challenge. Notification of the Overlord and the
Standings Keeper *constitute* officially announcing a challenge. You wonder what people are reading; we read the Overlord's words. Your comments carried the implication that you were contradiciting Baphelocutis; given the facts, you can only be contradicting the Overlord as well.
In reference to the remainder of your comments, it is not my place to answer for the Overlord. This discussion was not about the Overlord, or the mutual disagreement between he and Lord Altruis. It is about failing to follow written procedures.
Should you wish to engage in an Eglarettian defense of Lord Altruis, Colleen, feel free, but I will treat it in the expected manner. I have little patience for those who err and - rather than say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake" - scream about how they are being tormented. (It should be noted that I, and many others, are quick to forgive those who simply admit error and move on. Those who do so have earned the right not to be torn apart by vulture's talons.) I have less patience for those who follow
along behind such individuals and defend them.
Frankly, my thoughts at the moment are that Ecore is dead, and there is no need for someone to replace him.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
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Date: 9/3/97 10:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: DravenIl
>>I have little patience for those who err and - rather than say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake" - scream about how they are being tormented. (It should be noted that I, and many others, are quick to forgive those who simply admit error and move on. Those who do so have earned the right not to be torn apart by vulture's talons.) I have less patience for those who follow along behind such individuals and defend them.<<
MacKenzie;
Your words are not only terribly ignorant, but uncalled for. The debate that you referred to took place before the err was ever brought to attention. Had this been the instigation from the beginning, I'd have immediately rescinded my challenge. It was not. The altercation focuses merely on Dalamar's inability to cope with a challenge immediately ensuing his former. Any screaming on my part had nothing to do with my challenge being nullified due to my ignorance of a single rule. If you're going to
attempt a battle with me, do at least have some knowledge on that which you speak of.
~Draven
From: DravenIl
>>I have little patience for those who err and - rather than say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake" - scream about how they are being tormented. (It should be noted that I, and many others, are quick to forgive those who simply admit error and move on. Those who do so have earned the right not to be torn apart by vulture's talons.) I have less patience for those who follow along behind such individuals and defend them.<<
MacKenzie;
Your words are not only terribly ignorant, but uncalled for. The debate that you referred to took place before the err was ever brought to attention. Had this been the instigation from the beginning, I'd have immediately rescinded my challenge. It was not. The altercation focuses merely on Dalamar's inability to cope with a challenge immediately ensuing his former. Any screaming on my part had nothing to do with my challenge being nullified due to my ignorance of a single rule. If you're going to
attempt a battle with me, do at least have some knowledge on that which you speak of.
~Draven
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Date: 9/4/97 1:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: IainMacKnz
Altruis...
That is as may be. However, for you - at this point in the game - to even have the temerity to speak of Dalamar's attitiude toward your challenge is gall of the highest order.
Rules be *damned,* Draven, it was crass and boorish of you to challenge the man apparently before he'd even had an opportunity to return home from his victory. He had every right to take offense; I'd have been so bloody enraged that I wouldn't have *cared* about whether the rules made your challenge worthless. And then, when you faced the firestorm of criticism that you can't *possibly* have been dull-witted enough to have failed to expect, you immediately begain wailing.
Of course, you can prove me wrong on that score by ceasing this endless whining about how everyone is being mean to you and you get no respect. There is a *reason* people are being mean to you, Altruis. It's the same reason people have been mean to Ecore, to Billy Ray, to Jeffery, to Zaradda... even to me, a time or two.
It's because you acted like a complete jerk.
And if you don't like hearing that, Altruis... well, I'd give you the same advice you offered me, but oddly, it seems those comments have been ripped from the board.
From: IainMacKnz
Altruis...
That is as may be. However, for you - at this point in the game - to even have the temerity to speak of Dalamar's attitiude toward your challenge is gall of the highest order.
Rules be *damned,* Draven, it was crass and boorish of you to challenge the man apparently before he'd even had an opportunity to return home from his victory. He had every right to take offense; I'd have been so bloody enraged that I wouldn't have *cared* about whether the rules made your challenge worthless. And then, when you faced the firestorm of criticism that you can't *possibly* have been dull-witted enough to have failed to expect, you immediately begain wailing.
Of course, you can prove me wrong on that score by ceasing this endless whining about how everyone is being mean to you and you get no respect. There is a *reason* people are being mean to you, Altruis. It's the same reason people have been mean to Ecore, to Billy Ray, to Jeffery, to Zaradda... even to me, a time or two.
It's because you acted like a complete jerk.
And if you don't like hearing that, Altruis... well, I'd give you the same advice you offered me, but oddly, it seems those comments have been ripped from the board.
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Date: 9/5/97 6:03 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: Kalamere
Collie,
Exactly which question did you adderess to me? In this particular thread, I see only a question to Baphe. Perhaps the question you are refering to is under the other heading which Dalamar began.
If you are somehow concerned that Iain has not sufficiently answered in my stead, let me assure you that he has quite nicely summed up my opinion in most of the pertinent areas here. I had remained silent so as not to become repetitive. Apparently you require an answer none-the-less, so by all means, allow me to rephrase what Iain has already said and place it in my own light.
Simply put: Blindly following the leader is as unbecoming on you as it was on Sidartha. Though, if Draven wants to think of himself as the latest incarnation of Ecore then I suppose your job is to fill that slot.
Thus far the arguments you have offered are utterly without merit.
~ Draven didn't post his challenge here on the board, so this makes you wonder just what people are reading around here.
Come now. We both know that Draven challenged, so just what is that supposed to mean? The challenge is somehow valid for being placed in the hands of only the Overlord and standings keeper? A challenge is a challenge is a challenge. There is no requirement that they be placed on the board at all, does that mean that everyone involved in the DoS must turn a blind eye towards it?
I would address the other points you have made in this heading, however those were specifically addressed to Iain. I'd not want to upset the matter by answering for him. Though.. there is one thing I must say.
If you and Draven wish to claim some sufferance for having been singled out, that is, of course, your right. Before continuing to do so, however, I would advise you to open your eyes and look around you. There have been 3 invalid challenges in just the last week and a half. Many others before that. Draven is not the only one being addressed at the time. His case may take special care, as he is, without a doubt, the most obnoxious of the challengers, but he is certainly not the only one being
instructed as to the error. For months now there has been talk of penalizing those who challenge without first making themselves familiar with the standards. Consider that before continuing this self pitty line of argument.
~Kalamere...
From: Kalamere
Collie,
Exactly which question did you adderess to me? In this particular thread, I see only a question to Baphe. Perhaps the question you are refering to is under the other heading which Dalamar began.
If you are somehow concerned that Iain has not sufficiently answered in my stead, let me assure you that he has quite nicely summed up my opinion in most of the pertinent areas here. I had remained silent so as not to become repetitive. Apparently you require an answer none-the-less, so by all means, allow me to rephrase what Iain has already said and place it in my own light.
Simply put: Blindly following the leader is as unbecoming on you as it was on Sidartha. Though, if Draven wants to think of himself as the latest incarnation of Ecore then I suppose your job is to fill that slot.
Thus far the arguments you have offered are utterly without merit.
~ Draven didn't post his challenge here on the board, so this makes you wonder just what people are reading around here.
Come now. We both know that Draven challenged, so just what is that supposed to mean? The challenge is somehow valid for being placed in the hands of only the Overlord and standings keeper? A challenge is a challenge is a challenge. There is no requirement that they be placed on the board at all, does that mean that everyone involved in the DoS must turn a blind eye towards it?
I would address the other points you have made in this heading, however those were specifically addressed to Iain. I'd not want to upset the matter by answering for him. Though.. there is one thing I must say.
If you and Draven wish to claim some sufferance for having been singled out, that is, of course, your right. Before continuing to do so, however, I would advise you to open your eyes and look around you. There have been 3 invalid challenges in just the last week and a half. Many others before that. Draven is not the only one being addressed at the time. His case may take special care, as he is, without a doubt, the most obnoxious of the challengers, but he is certainly not the only one being
instructed as to the error. For months now there has been talk of penalizing those who challenge without first making themselves familiar with the standards. Consider that before continuing this self pitty line of argument.
~Kalamere...
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Date: 9/6/97 1:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: SidarthaE
Iain~
Depends on how you form your opinion. I don't judge people for their opinions, I judge them by *how* the opinion is stated. If someone says, "I can't believe you think that. You must be stupid," it's their opinion, but it is stated in a rude manner, which, no matter how you toss it around, it's still wrong.
If Kalamere thinks it's stupid to support somebody whom they feel has no redeemable qualities to support, so be it, but telling them that it's "unbecoming of them" is just downright rude.
This is supposed to be an area where we debate, not just insult each other.
From: SidarthaE
Iain~
Depends on how you form your opinion. I don't judge people for their opinions, I judge them by *how* the opinion is stated. If someone says, "I can't believe you think that. You must be stupid," it's their opinion, but it is stated in a rude manner, which, no matter how you toss it around, it's still wrong.
If Kalamere thinks it's stupid to support somebody whom they feel has no redeemable qualities to support, so be it, but telling them that it's "unbecoming of them" is just downright rude.
This is supposed to be an area where we debate, not just insult each other.