From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 12:38:42 EDT
Seamus,
This appears to be the second time you have changed your vote. I'll not condemn you for that, though I will go on to explain why I believe you are going about it the wrong way.
For everyone else, I would point out that despite the change of vote here, a majority still holds the opinion of allowing Dalamar to retain the title without challenge from Huma. As such, until someone else alters their vote, we would be well served to continue discussion on the other matters.
Seamus, you are correct that Dalamar is at fault for this issue being before the council in the first place. I certainly have made no claim that he should step away from this with no form of censure. If you believe his missing the match a grievous enough offense to remove the crown from his head, then by all means vote for that option..
However, you yourself wrote that: " I am not so concerned with Huma as I am the sanctity of the sport. " This in regard to allowing Huma to reschedule once you learned he would not keep his word.
Punishing Dalamar and allowing Huma to fight for the title are two completely separate things. You may certainly do one without the other. Rather than now go back upon your vote and allow Huma's challenge to go forward, why not seek a fitting punishment for Dalamar?
Perhaps, instead of punishing Dal in this manner, another option would be more suitable to your dilemma. Under the heading of "other" surely you could suggest that Dalamar fight a champion of the council's choosing. If he is victorious, the title remains his. If not, the title goes to a tournament. You might even throw an ironic twist and propose Huma as the champion, since he would have no right to the crown if he wins. Since he claims to have
no interest in it now other than to remove it from Dal, that might be fitting.
Voting on the first matter has not been closed off to us and the majority may alter their views. I shant, but certainly some of the others might. Either way, until the majority is broken, we should continue upon the current line of inquiry.
In closing please think carefully about what it is you wish to accomplish. I know you do not wish to sponsor the breaking of an oath.. you need not do so to achieve justice.
Respectfully
~Kalamere
One Baron's thoughts
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 12:46:57 EDT
Master Girvin
It is thee what be confused. Huma was not asked to wager his rights upon a duel, he insisted upon it and reiterated his offer before witnesses. As the Renegade Baron, Magnus being present could very well have stepped in should he have so choosen. I believe m'lord Kalamere was commenting upon the unavailability of a Renegade when he made his comment.
Jona.
Date: 17 Oct 1998 12:46:57 EDT
Master Girvin
It is thee what be confused. Huma was not asked to wager his rights upon a duel, he insisted upon it and reiterated his offer before witnesses. As the Renegade Baron, Magnus being present could very well have stepped in should he have so choosen. I believe m'lord Kalamere was commenting upon the unavailability of a Renegade when he made his comment.
Jona.
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 12:49:05 EDT
Master Girvin,
Thou claimeth to believe a man should stand by his word. I find that comment utterly amusing coming from thee.
Jona.
Date: 17 Oct 1998 12:49:05 EDT
Master Girvin,
Thou claimeth to believe a man should stand by his word. I find that comment utterly amusing coming from thee.
Jona.
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 13:32:23 EDT
Jonalyn,
Opinions may differ, which is why I stated in the beginning that the duel in question might easily have been seen as either an Intercession of simply a Duel of Honor. As for my own opinion, it was stated because I do not believe a renegade could have stepping into that match. Indeed, there was a renegade baron present, however, had he stepped into the match, the wager itself would not have been the same. That is, of course, my opinion alone.
~Kalamere...
Date: 17 Oct 1998 13:32:23 EDT
Jonalyn,
Opinions may differ, which is why I stated in the beginning that the duel in question might easily have been seen as either an Intercession of simply a Duel of Honor. As for my own opinion, it was stated because I do not believe a renegade could have stepping into that match. Indeed, there was a renegade baron present, however, had he stepped into the match, the wager itself would not have been the same. That is, of course, my opinion alone.
~Kalamere...
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From: gimmzak@aol.com (Gimmzak)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 13:52:01 EDT
First off I have to say the amount of mudslinging that is going on is very disheartening. Jona, I have watched you sling jibes at 3 or 4 people thus far in the last two weeks. Everyone is getting away from the mater at hand. *We* The Baron's Council are here to make a choice on the matter at hand, the veiled insults as well as the open insults only make this thing look worse then it is.
I implore everyone involved, please stop now. Stop the insults, stop the mudslinging. We as the Council need to sit down and just vote. I'm not trying to deny people an opinion, but I believe the insults are uncalled for. Can we not voice our views without downing another? Have we become that bad? If you wish to call someone an honorless curr...Do it privately, not only do you look foolish, but you make everyone involved here look bad as well.
Remember, others in Rhydin pass this corkboard. Is this what we want our sport to be seen as? Bickering, insulting people?
Stop now before it gets worse.
Gimzak Stonecutter
Date: 17 Oct 1998 13:52:01 EDT
First off I have to say the amount of mudslinging that is going on is very disheartening. Jona, I have watched you sling jibes at 3 or 4 people thus far in the last two weeks. Everyone is getting away from the mater at hand. *We* The Baron's Council are here to make a choice on the matter at hand, the veiled insults as well as the open insults only make this thing look worse then it is.
I implore everyone involved, please stop now. Stop the insults, stop the mudslinging. We as the Council need to sit down and just vote. I'm not trying to deny people an opinion, but I believe the insults are uncalled for. Can we not voice our views without downing another? Have we become that bad? If you wish to call someone an honorless curr...Do it privately, not only do you look foolish, but you make everyone involved here look bad as well.
Remember, others in Rhydin pass this corkboard. Is this what we want our sport to be seen as? Bickering, insulting people?
Stop now before it gets worse.
Gimzak Stonecutter
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 13:54:42 EDT
Jona,
I very rarely disagree with you, but this is how I see it.
If it were truly an intercession, and not a duel of honor, then I believe Magnus would be given the opportunity to take part.
However, this was a match of honor, and I believe Magnus would have been criticized if he were to "interfere with Huma and Jeff's match of honor".
In answer to Kal.
I accept the sincere apology, but you seem to have misunderstood why I didn't like the voting system.
I admit, it was probably a poor choice of wording on my part, but it has already been established as to Huma not being allowed to face the overlord again. Thus so, the option is bringing the council back to square one; do Huma and Dal get to fight a rematch?
Regarding me voting, the council reached their decision based on Huma changing his mind. Would I be brought to justice when I've already told everyone I would abstain, but later change my mind?
I'm treating this whole thing hypothetically. It brings the fairest decisions. Moreover, the mention of me abstaining because I "did not get my way" by another baron insulted me greatly. I don't find it fair that most of my decisions have been criticized by one loyal baron or another, when not once, did I dissect the baron's reasoning for choosing choice A.
There are many reasons for my abstaining, and I shall keep my word.
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Holder of the Tenth Ring¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
Date: 17 Oct 1998 13:54:42 EDT
Jona,
I very rarely disagree with you, but this is how I see it.
If it were truly an intercession, and not a duel of honor, then I believe Magnus would be given the opportunity to take part.
However, this was a match of honor, and I believe Magnus would have been criticized if he were to "interfere with Huma and Jeff's match of honor".
In answer to Kal.
I accept the sincere apology, but you seem to have misunderstood why I didn't like the voting system.
I admit, it was probably a poor choice of wording on my part, but it has already been established as to Huma not being allowed to face the overlord again. Thus so, the option is bringing the council back to square one; do Huma and Dal get to fight a rematch?
Regarding me voting, the council reached their decision based on Huma changing his mind. Would I be brought to justice when I've already told everyone I would abstain, but later change my mind?
I'm treating this whole thing hypothetically. It brings the fairest decisions. Moreover, the mention of me abstaining because I "did not get my way" by another baron insulted me greatly. I don't find it fair that most of my decisions have been criticized by one loyal baron or another, when not once, did I dissect the baron's reasoning for choosing choice A.
There are many reasons for my abstaining, and I shall keep my word.
Simply,
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Holder of the Tenth Ring¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 14:03:28 EDT
M'Lord Kalamere.
I thank thee most kindly for the clarification upon the matter. Tis verra kind of thee.
Jona.
Date: 17 Oct 1998 14:03:28 EDT
M'Lord Kalamere.
I thank thee most kindly for the clarification upon the matter. Tis verra kind of thee.
Jona.
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 14:34:12 EDT
M'lord Var.
Indeed we rarely disagree. Thine point ist well taken, m'lord. We shall ne'er know, however, for the Baron Magnus wast nae given opportunity to intercede, nor did he take the opportunity to step forward. Had he done so, it would have been a point of Honor to intercede and, from me at least, would have met no criticism had he done so.
Ast thou hast stated, he may well have met criticism had he stepped forward betwixt Jeffrey and Huma, but again, nae from me, ast that would also have been a point of Honor and methinks the Baron would have withstood it.
If I may say, m'lord, thee remind me, most fondly, I might add, of the once Baron, Torquillan Aspendale, he that was a student of Fandral Kurgan, most commonly known as "Bishop" Firm in his beliefs he was, an elf of his word, though upon rare occasion given to flashes of temper, and a Baron who didst retire his ring rather than accept the Overlordship of the dark elf, Feadur Feamegil.
Jona.
Date: 17 Oct 1998 14:34:12 EDT
M'lord Var.
Indeed we rarely disagree. Thine point ist well taken, m'lord. We shall ne'er know, however, for the Baron Magnus wast nae given opportunity to intercede, nor did he take the opportunity to step forward. Had he done so, it would have been a point of Honor to intercede and, from me at least, would have met no criticism had he done so.
Ast thou hast stated, he may well have met criticism had he stepped forward betwixt Jeffrey and Huma, but again, nae from me, ast that would also have been a point of Honor and methinks the Baron would have withstood it.
If I may say, m'lord, thee remind me, most fondly, I might add, of the once Baron, Torquillan Aspendale, he that was a student of Fandral Kurgan, most commonly known as "Bishop" Firm in his beliefs he was, an elf of his word, though upon rare occasion given to flashes of temper, and a Baron who didst retire his ring rather than accept the Overlordship of the dark elf, Feadur Feamegil.
Jona.
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From: qxz137@aol.com (QXZ137)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 15:25:32 EDT
What I'm interested in is whether, if Dragonbane won the vote, how many Barons would switch their alignment...?
--Quizxs Xysar Zzaasdp
Common Guy, 3-4-0
Once Swordsman
The Slasher of all Antislashers.
Anti-Antislasher?
Quack.
Date: 17 Oct 1998 15:25:32 EDT
What I'm interested in is whether, if Dragonbane won the vote, how many Barons would switch their alignment...?
--Quizxs Xysar Zzaasdp
Common Guy, 3-4-0
Once Swordsman
The Slasher of all Antislashers.
Anti-Antislasher?
Quack.
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 16:23:14 EDT
Also, I would like to add this, since I was hasty and neglected to mention this in my last letter to the Council.
I may not agree with Walker or Var's decisions to abstain at one time or another. I may not agree with many of Walker's attitudes, opinions of the Overlord and loyal barons, comments, mindset, and so on. I, however, do admire both of their commitments to conviction and/or personal codes of honor.
Respectfully,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
Date: 17 Oct 1998 16:23:14 EDT
Also, I would like to add this, since I was hasty and neglected to mention this in my last letter to the Council.
I may not agree with Walker or Var's decisions to abstain at one time or another. I may not agree with many of Walker's attitudes, opinions of the Overlord and loyal barons, comments, mindset, and so on. I, however, do admire both of their commitments to conviction and/or personal codes of honor.
Respectfully,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 16:23:17 EDT
To: QuickVarMG, Kalamere, XJaycyndaX, Maxim128
To: J Oaknshld, AJaybird2, Jakvaltrds, Zen 80s
To: Sartan Z, X Gnort X, Gimmzak, WaIkrBoh
CC: RDI Helix
If a Baron cannot behave as a Baron and accept the responsibilities of the title, then perhaps it is best to step down.
Everyone had an opportunity to bring up their points. Everyone had the opportunity to come up with options. Someone was kind enough to consolidate the various options into a viable four. We were asked to vote which option so we could further discuss the details, and we did. Majority rules and sometimes what the majority rules is not your solution. That, unfortunately, is not a valid reason to refuse to vote or to threaten us with your abstaining
if we do not choose your solution. Abstaining means nothing more than acting irresponsibly. As a child told me today when upset over a playmate's behavior, "It isn't right to take your marbles and go home just because you didn't get your way."
Make your choices based on what options were voted for, and do so in a timely manner. If you feel that strongly against the option, then vote for the least penalty toward one and the most penalty toward the other (or whichever one is the closest to the option you originally wanted).
We are among peers. We are all equal and we all vote on the issues we, in the majority, agreed upon. You may not think you are voting on a decision, but by not joining in the decision-making process you are giving up your right and your responsibility to your peers, your community, and yourself; a very clear casting of preference, a vote, to the wind.
Regards,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
-------------------------------------------------------------------
To: QuickVarMG, Kalamere, XJaycyndaX, Maxim128
To: J Oaknshld, AJaybird2, Jakvaltrds, Zen 80s
To: Sartan Z, X Gnort X, Gimmzak, WaIkrBoh
CC: RDI Helix
Let me be blunt.
Var said: << Now, claiming I am choosing to abstain because I am irresponsible and that I don't get my way is equally insulting.>>
Remember there are TWO of you abstaining. Did you say anything along the lines of "since my suggestions were ignored I am going to abstain?" No, you did not. Obviously, that particular comment was not geared toward you and instead geared toward the baron that said something most similar to that - to be direct, that would be Walker.
I do not think you are abstaining because you did not get your way, and I apologize for implying that. I do think you would be irresponsible to abstain from voting. As I said earlier, you are a Baron and you have a responsibility to the title. Part of that responsibility is to serve on the Barons' Council. You are not serving on the council if you do not vote. If you do not follow through on your responsibility, then you are the opposite of
responsible (irresponsible).
I am still not clear on what your objection is. You are personally insulted and object to the council because there might still be a possibility that Huma and Dalamar will still fight? (reference your quote, " I believe my honor was insulted, then insulted again with this option, so I chose not to vote.")
I sincerely want to understand your position. I understand you feel strongly about something important, but I am not sure exactly what the something important is. Humor and old woman and explain to me how your honor is compromised because there is a possibility that the Council may vote that Huma and Dalamar may fight under the chosen choice that Dalamar keeps his crown?
Respectfully,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
To: WaIkrBoh, QuickVarMG, Kalamere, XJaycyndaX
To: Maxim128, J Oaknshld, AJaybird2, Jakvaltrds
To: Zen 80s, Sartan Z, X Gnort X, Gimmzak
CC: RDI Helix
Sent on: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214
I originally stated "Make your choices based on what options were voted for, and do so in a timely manner."
Walker asks in response: "Then why aren't you after Zen for not voting at all?"
Who in the world do you think I was referring to? Zen has not responded to mail in over two weeks.
Walker, at one point you DID threaten the council with abstaining because we did not vote the way you thought we should have, and that was precisely what I was responding to. First you say you are going to abstain, and then Var says he will and those two elements combined prompted my response. Yes, you did vote and I have NO ISSUE with the choice you made. I have issue with your threat of abstaining initially and find it irresponsible and I did
infer from your words that you threatened abstaining because you did not like what the majority voted for (in other words, you did not get what you wanted). If this is not the case, then I stand corrected and I apologize to you.
You said, "I am not asking you to necessarily agree with me, but I would you would at least listen to my opinion. "
I ask the same.
If you object to the perceived notion that I am ordering you around, then I object to your threats and slander, both direct and indirect, here and on the boards.
You also object that I do not deal with your issues and your opinions. That is because your posts and letters are rife with emotion, insults, ad hominem attacks, and propaganda. You know nothing of me but are so willing to plaster the boards that I am a self-serving, lapdog, corrupt, ad nauseum, simply because I aligned myself loyal to the current Overlord. How does one respond in the logical manner you demand when faced with such illogical
rhetoric?
You constantly insinuate that we voted to punish Huma Dragonbane. I have done no such thing. In the preliminary voting I chose option A, which was to allow Dalamar to retain his crown, with or without possible censure. That is not punishing Huma for anything.
To all,
Let me recap the choices that were before us:
A) Dalamar retains his crown, with or without censure;
B) Huma receives the crown;
C) Schedule a rematch;
D) Other: Walker's suggestion of a Baronial Tourney, or other option.
Logically, if A is that Dalamar retains his crown, the C must assume that his crown is in question and that he cannot act as Overlord until the rematch has been fought.
It is my opinion that we assure the community that we do, indeed, have an acting, full-charge Overlord, despite the fact we are currently discussing how to handle the dilema of Dalamar's inability to show up for the match because his father died.
It makes perfect sense to me to rule that Dalamar keeps his crown WITHOUT question and have one of the options be to allow Dalamar to reschedule the match as befits decency and respect to the grieving (other options would be to fine Dalamar, or disallow the TOW next challenge, or take away a fancy, or all of the options combined).
I have not yet discussed that because we are STILL hashing out how we do not agree with how the majority voted, or others are facillating back and forth on their decisions, and yet others throw up their hands in disgust and refuse to vote. What is so hard about this? We voted in the majority that Dal retains his crown. Now please, let us move on to resolving the rest of this mess. Someone, please list out the options available, I do not wish to
do so because then I get accused of ordering people around. Here are some possibilities (keep in mind that not all of them I agree with, I am simply adding what I have heard previously):
A.1) strip Huma of his peer wins
A.2) strip Huma of his right to challenge for one cycle
A.3) Order that Dalamar and Huma reschedule the match in respect to his grieving, with no restrictions placed on either party
A.4) Order that Dalamar and Huma reschedule and force Dalamar to use the Best of Three option
A.5) Order that Dalamar and Huma reschedule and bind Dalamar by restricted fancy use.
A.6) Fine Dalamar a certain sum of money to be distributed
A.7) Rule that Huma must fight a Council-appointed champion
A.8) any combination of the above
And so on... feel free to add your own ideas, but remember, the vote was tallied that Dalamar Retains His Crown. Let's move on and establish the details. Seamus, Jaycynda, I say this respectfully, but this is going nowhere if we do not cut off the voting time limits. It simply looks bad for the council as a whole to keep facillating about. At the most fundamental level, it makes us look undecisive and lacking commitment to conviction.
Respectfully, if not bluntly,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
Date: 17 Oct 1998 16:23:17 EDT
To: QuickVarMG, Kalamere, XJaycyndaX, Maxim128
To: J Oaknshld, AJaybird2, Jakvaltrds, Zen 80s
To: Sartan Z, X Gnort X, Gimmzak, WaIkrBoh
CC: RDI Helix
If a Baron cannot behave as a Baron and accept the responsibilities of the title, then perhaps it is best to step down.
Everyone had an opportunity to bring up their points. Everyone had the opportunity to come up with options. Someone was kind enough to consolidate the various options into a viable four. We were asked to vote which option so we could further discuss the details, and we did. Majority rules and sometimes what the majority rules is not your solution. That, unfortunately, is not a valid reason to refuse to vote or to threaten us with your abstaining
if we do not choose your solution. Abstaining means nothing more than acting irresponsibly. As a child told me today when upset over a playmate's behavior, "It isn't right to take your marbles and go home just because you didn't get your way."
Make your choices based on what options were voted for, and do so in a timely manner. If you feel that strongly against the option, then vote for the least penalty toward one and the most penalty toward the other (or whichever one is the closest to the option you originally wanted).
We are among peers. We are all equal and we all vote on the issues we, in the majority, agreed upon. You may not think you are voting on a decision, but by not joining in the decision-making process you are giving up your right and your responsibility to your peers, your community, and yourself; a very clear casting of preference, a vote, to the wind.
Regards,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
-------------------------------------------------------------------
To: QuickVarMG, Kalamere, XJaycyndaX, Maxim128
To: J Oaknshld, AJaybird2, Jakvaltrds, Zen 80s
To: Sartan Z, X Gnort X, Gimmzak, WaIkrBoh
CC: RDI Helix
Let me be blunt.
Var said: << Now, claiming I am choosing to abstain because I am irresponsible and that I don't get my way is equally insulting.>>
Remember there are TWO of you abstaining. Did you say anything along the lines of "since my suggestions were ignored I am going to abstain?" No, you did not. Obviously, that particular comment was not geared toward you and instead geared toward the baron that said something most similar to that - to be direct, that would be Walker.
I do not think you are abstaining because you did not get your way, and I apologize for implying that. I do think you would be irresponsible to abstain from voting. As I said earlier, you are a Baron and you have a responsibility to the title. Part of that responsibility is to serve on the Barons' Council. You are not serving on the council if you do not vote. If you do not follow through on your responsibility, then you are the opposite of
responsible (irresponsible).
I am still not clear on what your objection is. You are personally insulted and object to the council because there might still be a possibility that Huma and Dalamar will still fight? (reference your quote, " I believe my honor was insulted, then insulted again with this option, so I chose not to vote.")
I sincerely want to understand your position. I understand you feel strongly about something important, but I am not sure exactly what the something important is. Humor and old woman and explain to me how your honor is compromised because there is a possibility that the Council may vote that Huma and Dalamar may fight under the chosen choice that Dalamar keeps his crown?
Respectfully,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
To: WaIkrBoh, QuickVarMG, Kalamere, XJaycyndaX
To: Maxim128, J Oaknshld, AJaybird2, Jakvaltrds
To: Zen 80s, Sartan Z, X Gnort X, Gimmzak
CC: RDI Helix
Sent on: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214
I originally stated "Make your choices based on what options were voted for, and do so in a timely manner."
Walker asks in response: "Then why aren't you after Zen for not voting at all?"
Who in the world do you think I was referring to? Zen has not responded to mail in over two weeks.
Walker, at one point you DID threaten the council with abstaining because we did not vote the way you thought we should have, and that was precisely what I was responding to. First you say you are going to abstain, and then Var says he will and those two elements combined prompted my response. Yes, you did vote and I have NO ISSUE with the choice you made. I have issue with your threat of abstaining initially and find it irresponsible and I did
infer from your words that you threatened abstaining because you did not like what the majority voted for (in other words, you did not get what you wanted). If this is not the case, then I stand corrected and I apologize to you.
You said, "I am not asking you to necessarily agree with me, but I would you would at least listen to my opinion. "
I ask the same.
If you object to the perceived notion that I am ordering you around, then I object to your threats and slander, both direct and indirect, here and on the boards.
You also object that I do not deal with your issues and your opinions. That is because your posts and letters are rife with emotion, insults, ad hominem attacks, and propaganda. You know nothing of me but are so willing to plaster the boards that I am a self-serving, lapdog, corrupt, ad nauseum, simply because I aligned myself loyal to the current Overlord. How does one respond in the logical manner you demand when faced with such illogical
rhetoric?
You constantly insinuate that we voted to punish Huma Dragonbane. I have done no such thing. In the preliminary voting I chose option A, which was to allow Dalamar to retain his crown, with or without possible censure. That is not punishing Huma for anything.
To all,
Let me recap the choices that were before us:
A) Dalamar retains his crown, with or without censure;
B) Huma receives the crown;
C) Schedule a rematch;
D) Other: Walker's suggestion of a Baronial Tourney, or other option.
Logically, if A is that Dalamar retains his crown, the C must assume that his crown is in question and that he cannot act as Overlord until the rematch has been fought.
It is my opinion that we assure the community that we do, indeed, have an acting, full-charge Overlord, despite the fact we are currently discussing how to handle the dilema of Dalamar's inability to show up for the match because his father died.
It makes perfect sense to me to rule that Dalamar keeps his crown WITHOUT question and have one of the options be to allow Dalamar to reschedule the match as befits decency and respect to the grieving (other options would be to fine Dalamar, or disallow the TOW next challenge, or take away a fancy, or all of the options combined).
I have not yet discussed that because we are STILL hashing out how we do not agree with how the majority voted, or others are facillating back and forth on their decisions, and yet others throw up their hands in disgust and refuse to vote. What is so hard about this? We voted in the majority that Dal retains his crown. Now please, let us move on to resolving the rest of this mess. Someone, please list out the options available, I do not wish to
do so because then I get accused of ordering people around. Here are some possibilities (keep in mind that not all of them I agree with, I am simply adding what I have heard previously):
A.1) strip Huma of his peer wins
A.2) strip Huma of his right to challenge for one cycle
A.3) Order that Dalamar and Huma reschedule the match in respect to his grieving, with no restrictions placed on either party
A.4) Order that Dalamar and Huma reschedule and force Dalamar to use the Best of Three option
A.5) Order that Dalamar and Huma reschedule and bind Dalamar by restricted fancy use.
A.6) Fine Dalamar a certain sum of money to be distributed
A.7) Rule that Huma must fight a Council-appointed champion
A.8) any combination of the above
And so on... feel free to add your own ideas, but remember, the vote was tallied that Dalamar Retains His Crown. Let's move on and establish the details. Seamus, Jaycynda, I say this respectfully, but this is going nowhere if we do not cut off the voting time limits. It simply looks bad for the council as a whole to keep facillating about. At the most fundamental level, it makes us look undecisive and lacking commitment to conviction.
Respectfully, if not bluntly,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
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From: maxim128@aol.com (Maxim128)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 17:03:08 EDT
::finds his name a number of times and decides now he had better say something::
The reason I didn't intercede was for a couple of things. One was that I didn't know that I could intercede in an *honor* duel. Another would be that it was between Jeff and Huma. I had no part in this fight, and didn't wish to get involved in it. A third, I would have most likely been declined by Huma if I did step forward, for it was him that challenged Jeff, if I am correct, and Huma wouldn't challenge someone and then have someone step in to
fight it for him.
Another thing, and this is not to be harsh, is I keep seeing "Ifs". If I woulda stepped forward, this woulda happened. Yes, things may have been different, but they still may have not. It was a duel of *honor*. The honor of the duelers should bind that agreement, and it should not be the council who sees that it is withheld.
~Magnus~
Baron of the 13th
Guardian of Polaris
Date: 17 Oct 1998 17:03:08 EDT
::finds his name a number of times and decides now he had better say something::
The reason I didn't intercede was for a couple of things. One was that I didn't know that I could intercede in an *honor* duel. Another would be that it was between Jeff and Huma. I had no part in this fight, and didn't wish to get involved in it. A third, I would have most likely been declined by Huma if I did step forward, for it was him that challenged Jeff, if I am correct, and Huma wouldn't challenge someone and then have someone step in to
fight it for him.
Another thing, and this is not to be harsh, is I keep seeing "Ifs". If I woulda stepped forward, this woulda happened. Yes, things may have been different, but they still may have not. It was a duel of *honor*. The honor of the duelers should bind that agreement, and it should not be the council who sees that it is withheld.
~Magnus~
Baron of the 13th
Guardian of Polaris
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From: xgnortx@aol.com (X Gnort X)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 17:53:53 EDT
Magnus,
What they refer to you as is being able to intercede in the official challenge had Dalamar arrived. Dal would use the Test of Worthiness on Huma, then you could have stepped in for that. I don't believe they refer to the Honor match at all.
G'nort Espelande G'neesmacher Dragoon Talanador
Head of House Dragoon Talanador
Thrice Baron of the DoS
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master"
Date: 17 Oct 1998 17:53:53 EDT
Magnus,
What they refer to you as is being able to intercede in the official challenge had Dalamar arrived. Dal would use the Test of Worthiness on Huma, then you could have stepped in for that. I don't believe they refer to the Honor match at all.
G'nort Espelande G'neesmacher Dragoon Talanador
Head of House Dragoon Talanador
Thrice Baron of the DoS
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master"
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 18:01:33 EDT
To all,
I have not said much until now because I wanted to glean from the others and the community their thoughts before adding my own. I do not like saying something at one moment, then saying something else a moment later. I sincerely want to hear all sides and then I formulate my own judgements based on all the evidence.
Let it be made clear that I chose the vote that Dalamar retains his crown. Do not make the mistake of assuming I want Huma to be punished, or that Dalamar does not have to face repercussions. It would be falsely dichotomous to say that if my opinion is that Dalamar should retain his crown then Huma should be stripped of his peer wins (or any other form of personal punishment applied).
Brian brought up the point of red herrings. He is right, red herrings and straw men abound here.
What are the facts?
Dalamar did not show up for the match.
Huma says Helix told him he could not withdraw his challenge.
Reiver says Helix instructed him to bring the matter before the council.
Huma insisted that he did not want to reschedule the match and that he wanted to fight Dalamar that night, and no other.
Huma challenged Jeff to a duel of honor whereby if Huma won, Jeff would retire his ring, and if Jeff won, Huma would not press the challenge.
Jeff won.
Huma stated that it did not matter if he pressed for the match, Dalamar lost his crown, and that was all that he was after.
Huma posted a renege saying that he instead felt he deserved more than just Dalamar losing his crown.
Dalamar returned, apologized, and stated his father died.
The matter was turned over to the Council by Helix.
I have never understood the phrase, "Justice is blind." In my mind, justice is swift and sure and fair. Justice knows the difference between carelessness and matters beyond our control. Justice sees all the facts, all the motivations. Justice is anything but blind.
Nothing is set in stone and nothing is absolute. I firmly believe the council is here to decide things on a case by case basis. Many of you have brought up Clutch's challenge to Roland. The fact is, Clutch was careless. Everything about that challenge was controllable and the fact that it did not happen was because a man did not take the time out to know what was meant and, frankly, that man does not deserve to be a Baron if he cannot figure out
something as simple as our time conventions. I chose the course of action that allowed the Warlord to reflect and learn about Rhydin further.
In this case, Dalamar did not show up because his father died. That was completely out of his realm of controllables. When has Dalamar ever missed a challenge match? He has been Overlord for well over a year, and battled numerous duels and weathered many a criticism and he is still here. He is still here. How can we be so disrespectful as to discount his loss?
Huma wrote a letter to the council talking about how hard he has worked to save the well-being of Rhydin and the Arena. How is that done by throwing an honor match, Huma? How is that done by heartlessly throwing the rules around against a greiving man?
DALAMAR'S FATHER DIED and some do not seem to think this is understandable reason to be unavailable for a scheduled match. Over and over and over I hear people talk about how he did not show up and the rules say this and the rules say that but, good people, the rules cannot know every possible good or bad reason for a failure to show. The rules are not there to beat over our heads and be cold and callous about uncontrollables just because it suits
our own personal agendas.
Here is something to remember: The rules are there to guide us in the most general of matters and the council is there to guide in the most specific of matters. Generally speaking, if a Overlord or Baron does not show up for a challenge match, the match is forfeit, not necessarily the title. Specifically speaking, the Barons' Council rules on the outcome of the forfeit and if the title is forfeit or not based on actions of all
involved. That includes deciding whether the challenged had unavoidable circumstances out of his/her control or whether there was a disregard to the conventions, sanctity, and/or manifest ideals of the community.
The rules do not say that the challenged loses the title if the match is forfeit. I am quickly becoming tired of those who continuously say they do, tired of those who say the rules state it is Huma's right to the title because Dalamar did not show for the match in question, and tired of those who say the rules say it is required that Dalamar forfeit his crown.
The rules state that in the case of a forfeit, the matter is turned over to the council, and hence, here we are.
Sincerely,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
Date: 17 Oct 1998 18:01:33 EDT
To all,
I have not said much until now because I wanted to glean from the others and the community their thoughts before adding my own. I do not like saying something at one moment, then saying something else a moment later. I sincerely want to hear all sides and then I formulate my own judgements based on all the evidence.
Let it be made clear that I chose the vote that Dalamar retains his crown. Do not make the mistake of assuming I want Huma to be punished, or that Dalamar does not have to face repercussions. It would be falsely dichotomous to say that if my opinion is that Dalamar should retain his crown then Huma should be stripped of his peer wins (or any other form of personal punishment applied).
Brian brought up the point of red herrings. He is right, red herrings and straw men abound here.
What are the facts?
Dalamar did not show up for the match.
Huma says Helix told him he could not withdraw his challenge.
Reiver says Helix instructed him to bring the matter before the council.
Huma insisted that he did not want to reschedule the match and that he wanted to fight Dalamar that night, and no other.
Huma challenged Jeff to a duel of honor whereby if Huma won, Jeff would retire his ring, and if Jeff won, Huma would not press the challenge.
Jeff won.
Huma stated that it did not matter if he pressed for the match, Dalamar lost his crown, and that was all that he was after.
Huma posted a renege saying that he instead felt he deserved more than just Dalamar losing his crown.
Dalamar returned, apologized, and stated his father died.
The matter was turned over to the Council by Helix.
I have never understood the phrase, "Justice is blind." In my mind, justice is swift and sure and fair. Justice knows the difference between carelessness and matters beyond our control. Justice sees all the facts, all the motivations. Justice is anything but blind.
Nothing is set in stone and nothing is absolute. I firmly believe the council is here to decide things on a case by case basis. Many of you have brought up Clutch's challenge to Roland. The fact is, Clutch was careless. Everything about that challenge was controllable and the fact that it did not happen was because a man did not take the time out to know what was meant and, frankly, that man does not deserve to be a Baron if he cannot figure out
something as simple as our time conventions. I chose the course of action that allowed the Warlord to reflect and learn about Rhydin further.
In this case, Dalamar did not show up because his father died. That was completely out of his realm of controllables. When has Dalamar ever missed a challenge match? He has been Overlord for well over a year, and battled numerous duels and weathered many a criticism and he is still here. He is still here. How can we be so disrespectful as to discount his loss?
Huma wrote a letter to the council talking about how hard he has worked to save the well-being of Rhydin and the Arena. How is that done by throwing an honor match, Huma? How is that done by heartlessly throwing the rules around against a greiving man?
DALAMAR'S FATHER DIED and some do not seem to think this is understandable reason to be unavailable for a scheduled match. Over and over and over I hear people talk about how he did not show up and the rules say this and the rules say that but, good people, the rules cannot know every possible good or bad reason for a failure to show. The rules are not there to beat over our heads and be cold and callous about uncontrollables just because it suits
our own personal agendas.
Here is something to remember: The rules are there to guide us in the most general of matters and the council is there to guide in the most specific of matters. Generally speaking, if a Overlord or Baron does not show up for a challenge match, the match is forfeit, not necessarily the title. Specifically speaking, the Barons' Council rules on the outcome of the forfeit and if the title is forfeit or not based on actions of all
involved. That includes deciding whether the challenged had unavoidable circumstances out of his/her control or whether there was a disregard to the conventions, sanctity, and/or manifest ideals of the community.
The rules do not say that the challenged loses the title if the match is forfeit. I am quickly becoming tired of those who continuously say they do, tired of those who say the rules state it is Huma's right to the title because Dalamar did not show for the match in question, and tired of those who say the rules say it is required that Dalamar forfeit his crown.
The rules state that in the case of a forfeit, the matter is turned over to the council, and hence, here we are.
Sincerely,
Morgan du Cornwall
Baron, 5th Ring
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From: xgnortx@aol.com (X Gnort X)
Date: 17 Oct 1998 18:19:08 EDT
Morgan,
Incredibly well said. Those are my thoughts almost to the letter that I didn't have the ability to put into words as eloquently as you have. I thank you and pray that what you have written opens the eyes of those who remain closed to the entire matter.
G'nort Espelande G'neesmacher Dragoon Talanador
Head of House Dragoon Talanador
Thrice Baron of the DoS
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master"
Date: 17 Oct 1998 18:19:08 EDT
Morgan,
Incredibly well said. Those are my thoughts almost to the letter that I didn't have the ability to put into words as eloquently as you have. I thank you and pray that what you have written opens the eyes of those who remain closed to the entire matter.
G'nort Espelande G'neesmacher Dragoon Talanador
Head of House Dragoon Talanador
Thrice Baron of the DoS
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master"