From: guyysavage@aol.com (GuyySavage)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 01:15:56 EDT
Girvin wrote: "Each man commited the same crime, there should be equal punishment for both if both the forfieture and the Honor duel are to be considered."
What you ask for is not justice at all Mr. Girvin. You demand blind obedience to a supposed "law" (which I would contend does not exist in those words). Justice may be blind, but it is not without compassion.
Two men commit "murder." One slays a child of 8 or 9. Another helps his terminally ill wife commit suicide (let's assume she is too enfeebled to act upon her own, so that he must commit the act himself). Would you contend that even though both are guilty of the same crime that the punishment should be the same for both? Justice is not served by blind obediance to the law.
It's my hope that the council will come to "FAIR" resolution. Fair for both Huma and Dalamar. It IS my belief that the circumstances surrounding the matter DO matter. The alleged crime has been committed in your eyes, but that does not mean justice is best served by the implementation of the same penalty.
Precedent has a purpose in a court of law, but precedent does not dictate an automatic verdict or punishment in later cases.
Each event passed to the baronial council for decision should be treated individually and fairly.
Girvin wrote: "Are morals not a personal choice, or would you prefer to be told that you have sinned, Guy, and marched about in disgrace for a law that you could never know you broke."
And in response to your comment about morals Mr. Girvin, again since I have not stated my opinion of what constitutes fair resolution in this matter, please do not put words into my mouth by presuming that I have sided with punishing Huma for anything. I have sided with neither Huma nor Dalamar. Nor have I need to do so. I am merely a spectator to this event.
A Question to the Baron's Council and the Officals of DoS
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From: occurs@aol.com (Occurs)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 03:08:00 EDT
<<<
Would you ask me that Huma were dishonorable, I would say yes without hesitation. Huma lacks honor, but that is by my definition of honor, which Baron Oakenshield bluntly pointed out to me many months back was my own definition, and should not be forced on the public as a whole, but now the council has placed its self as being able to decide on ethics, yet it is odd that there is no ethics clause in the definition of a baron or the Overlord. -
Girvin<<<<<
But Brian luv,
That is me thoughts exactly. Ta rules be simple. They be written out, but methinks that when something goes to ta council it be like sending it to a judge. Mayhaps ta Council purpose be ta interpret ta essence and ta meaning of ta rules.
I be proud ta stand beside ta Helix, and me thinks she be a fine coordinator; her ruling ta send it to ta council be an act that I admire. And in doing that she be saying something, that mayhaps ta council should look into ta situation - make a statement as to the merits of ta challenge.
I do nae think ta council be a bit of vanity fluff, I think ta council have meaning...and this be ta case that lets them show it. Aye, ta rules say "Blah blah blah blah..." But what is behind the intent of the rule?
The rule is that anyone can challenge who has the specified *whatever* but when ta one challenging has sworn in ta ring with an official that they will nae press their case if they lose; and they lose? Then they say "Hey, I was just kidding"?
Hence ta need and ta PURPOSE of ta council. It be messy, but it take inta account ta purityof honor, that no simple written recipe of how ta hold a duel could ever.
So Brian, with no disrespect to ya wife who I admire and yaself, if ta council reverse ya wife's decision, that be ta purpose. And it in no way shame ya wife, whose purpose is to interpret ta written word and nae take in ta nuances behind it. Helix be independent of ta intent, but ta Council pursue and interrupt ta intent.
Summer
Date: 18 Oct 1998 03:08:00 EDT
<<<
Would you ask me that Huma were dishonorable, I would say yes without hesitation. Huma lacks honor, but that is by my definition of honor, which Baron Oakenshield bluntly pointed out to me many months back was my own definition, and should not be forced on the public as a whole, but now the council has placed its self as being able to decide on ethics, yet it is odd that there is no ethics clause in the definition of a baron or the Overlord. -
Girvin<<<<<
But Brian luv,
That is me thoughts exactly. Ta rules be simple. They be written out, but methinks that when something goes to ta council it be like sending it to a judge. Mayhaps ta Council purpose be ta interpret ta essence and ta meaning of ta rules.
I be proud ta stand beside ta Helix, and me thinks she be a fine coordinator; her ruling ta send it to ta council be an act that I admire. And in doing that she be saying something, that mayhaps ta council should look into ta situation - make a statement as to the merits of ta challenge.
I do nae think ta council be a bit of vanity fluff, I think ta council have meaning...and this be ta case that lets them show it. Aye, ta rules say "Blah blah blah blah..." But what is behind the intent of the rule?
The rule is that anyone can challenge who has the specified *whatever* but when ta one challenging has sworn in ta ring with an official that they will nae press their case if they lose; and they lose? Then they say "Hey, I was just kidding"?
Hence ta need and ta PURPOSE of ta council. It be messy, but it take inta account ta purityof honor, that no simple written recipe of how ta hold a duel could ever.
So Brian, with no disrespect to ya wife who I admire and yaself, if ta council reverse ya wife's decision, that be ta purpose. And it in no way shame ya wife, whose purpose is to interpret ta written word and nae take in ta nuances behind it. Helix be independent of ta intent, but ta Council pursue and interrupt ta intent.
Summer
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From: moralitor@aol.com (Moralitor)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 08:27:40 EDT
Members of the community,
I must say that I am in total agreement with Girvin on this matter. The Baron's Council has no right to judge Huma DragonBane in his Duel of Honor with Jeffrey Oakenshield. This matter is outside their realm of influence and is something the community as a whole makes judgement on. Yet, if you wish to ignore this simple truth, then let me ask you this. Are you ready to make judgement on Jeffrey Oakenshield for the outlandish behavior he displayed
towards Huma Dragonbane prior to Huma issuing the challenge for a Duel of Honor? The remarks were scathing and yes, quite unhonorable, yet I do not hear anyone crying foul.
This is the problem with what you are doing. Deciding what is right and wrong behavior is outside the rules of the sport, it always has, and should always be so. The judgement that comes forth from the Baron's Council, at the least, should be a rescheduling of the match if Huma Dragonbane has decided to press his challenge. Any other ruling is a slap in the face to this sport. For it was the Overlord, for whatever reason, that violated a written
rule. Not Huma Dragonbane.
Now, let me also clarify my personal position on all of this, before anyone starts crying about my friendship with Huma Dragonbane. It no longer exists. His breaking of his word to Jeffrey Oakenshield, no matter my opinion of the dwarf, was something I cannot, and will not support. Yet, that is the limits of my power to punish Huma Dragonbane for those actions. Were I a sitting Baron at present, it would not be my right to punish him within the
rules of the sport. For any Baron to do otherwise will bring nothing but a terrible injustice to this sport and those of us who have participated in it over the years.
Sincerely,
Moralitor the Black
Date: 18 Oct 1998 08:27:40 EDT
Members of the community,
I must say that I am in total agreement with Girvin on this matter. The Baron's Council has no right to judge Huma DragonBane in his Duel of Honor with Jeffrey Oakenshield. This matter is outside their realm of influence and is something the community as a whole makes judgement on. Yet, if you wish to ignore this simple truth, then let me ask you this. Are you ready to make judgement on Jeffrey Oakenshield for the outlandish behavior he displayed
towards Huma Dragonbane prior to Huma issuing the challenge for a Duel of Honor? The remarks were scathing and yes, quite unhonorable, yet I do not hear anyone crying foul.
This is the problem with what you are doing. Deciding what is right and wrong behavior is outside the rules of the sport, it always has, and should always be so. The judgement that comes forth from the Baron's Council, at the least, should be a rescheduling of the match if Huma Dragonbane has decided to press his challenge. Any other ruling is a slap in the face to this sport. For it was the Overlord, for whatever reason, that violated a written
rule. Not Huma Dragonbane.
Now, let me also clarify my personal position on all of this, before anyone starts crying about my friendship with Huma Dragonbane. It no longer exists. His breaking of his word to Jeffrey Oakenshield, no matter my opinion of the dwarf, was something I cannot, and will not support. Yet, that is the limits of my power to punish Huma Dragonbane for those actions. Were I a sitting Baron at present, it would not be my right to punish him within the
rules of the sport. For any Baron to do otherwise will bring nothing but a terrible injustice to this sport and those of us who have participated in it over the years.
Sincerely,
Moralitor the Black
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From: cygnetsera@aol.com (CygnetSera)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 09:46:47 EDT
To all and any concerned,
I would dare say that what was sent to the council was not the matter of Huma's actions, but those of the Overlord.
It is undeniable that the circumstances of our dear Overlords failure to meet his challenger is most heartfelt, I also must consider that a man with his powers, be they physical or of a more mystical nature, could have, and should have done the respectful and honorable thing and sent word of his fathers passing, making his appearance impossible.
Where all things must be weighed, and a fair resolve put into action by Madame Helix and the Council, let it be in the scope of the Overlord's deeds and not those of Dragonbanes, which should never have been made a part of this matter.
I remain in Grace,
Cygnet Seraphin
1st of the 9 Orders
~CS~
Date: 18 Oct 1998 09:46:47 EDT
To all and any concerned,
I would dare say that what was sent to the council was not the matter of Huma's actions, but those of the Overlord.
It is undeniable that the circumstances of our dear Overlords failure to meet his challenger is most heartfelt, I also must consider that a man with his powers, be they physical or of a more mystical nature, could have, and should have done the respectful and honorable thing and sent word of his fathers passing, making his appearance impossible.
Where all things must be weighed, and a fair resolve put into action by Madame Helix and the Council, let it be in the scope of the Overlord's deeds and not those of Dragonbanes, which should never have been made a part of this matter.
I remain in Grace,
Cygnet Seraphin
1st of the 9 Orders
~CS~
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From: xxlucianxx@aol.com (XxLucianxX)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 10:16:56 EDT
::reads over the part It is undeniable that the circumstances of our dear Overlords failure to meet his challenger is most heartfelt, I also must consider that a man with his powers, be they physical or of a more mystical nature, could have, and should have done the respectful and
honorable thing and sent word of his fathers passing, making his appearance impossible. ... putting brackets around it::
Excuse me, but I think it is safe to say that most compassionate and feeling beings would have nothing *farther* from their mind at the time of their beloved father's passing than the fact that an honorless challenger was sitting at ringside with a rulebook. Maybe that's just my opinion. ::shrugs, tacking it up::
-- Lucian
Date: 18 Oct 1998 10:16:56 EDT
::reads over the part It is undeniable that the circumstances of our dear Overlords failure to meet his challenger is most heartfelt, I also must consider that a man with his powers, be they physical or of a more mystical nature, could have, and should have done the respectful and
honorable thing and sent word of his fathers passing, making his appearance impossible. ... putting brackets around it::
Excuse me, but I think it is safe to say that most compassionate and feeling beings would have nothing *farther* from their mind at the time of their beloved father's passing than the fact that an honorless challenger was sitting at ringside with a rulebook. Maybe that's just my opinion. ::shrugs, tacking it up::
-- Lucian
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From: cygnetsera@aol.com (CygnetSera)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 11:14:54 EDT
Seraph and Gnome read the boards, taking note of Lucian's repsonse.
"Oh dear, Nimmy... I feared this was to be. What great leaders of the multiverse would be held less accountable because of compassion leaves the good people at the mercy of emotional failing. This is a sign of troubling times. "
The gnome tightens his hold of the angels hand.
"Ah, foo. Dal's a cry baby. I've seen many buck up under more stress. Hell, look at all the other folks who lost someone in just as tragic a circumstance, yet managed to live up to their responsibilities. Dal's got a lot of nerve pulling the sympathy card."
The gnome grumbles.
Cyggy offers a gentle smile.
"And Cyggie, your the most compassionate, feeling being I know, and then some, I don't know why ya like Dal so much and stay loyal."
"He's been a good Overlord, Nimmy, you know that."
Gnimish grumbles, "*Has* been."
Date: 18 Oct 1998 11:14:54 EDT
Seraph and Gnome read the boards, taking note of Lucian's repsonse.
"Oh dear, Nimmy... I feared this was to be. What great leaders of the multiverse would be held less accountable because of compassion leaves the good people at the mercy of emotional failing. This is a sign of troubling times. "
The gnome tightens his hold of the angels hand.
"Ah, foo. Dal's a cry baby. I've seen many buck up under more stress. Hell, look at all the other folks who lost someone in just as tragic a circumstance, yet managed to live up to their responsibilities. Dal's got a lot of nerve pulling the sympathy card."
The gnome grumbles.
Cyggy offers a gentle smile.
"And Cyggie, your the most compassionate, feeling being I know, and then some, I don't know why ya like Dal so much and stay loyal."
"He's been a good Overlord, Nimmy, you know that."
Gnimish grumbles, "*Has* been."
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From: foxxgrrl@aol.com (Foxxgrrl)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 12:07:09 EDT
"Each man commited the same crime, there should be equal punishment for both if both the forfieture and the Honor duel are to be considered." - Brian Girvin
I'm afraid, sir, I'll have to disagree with you there. Each man did not commit the same crime. Dalamar missed a challenge he had agreed to attend. Huma did not. Huma agreed to a substitute match, lost, and went back on his word. Dal did not.
There may be those who think that the basic crime (i.e., betraying one's word) is the same, and it is not my place to decide whether they are right or wrong. It is my place, however, to let my opinion be known here.
No two crimes are ever the same. Ever. On these very boards Guy Savage has already drawn an example of two "murders", and I don't feel I need to sprinkle more such examples throughout the community. The whole reason for the existence of the Baronial Council is this very fact, that every given situation is different and must be examined from different perspectives (the inevitable shifting of members). If we were to have one set course of
action, should it not be written down and placed in the rules for all time to be as underlying a tenet as the number of fancies available to certain ranks?
And furthermore, if these two crimes are indeed the same, then they are a matter of a man breaking his word, which clearly falls in the realm of ethics and morality. Is that what we mean to establish as the role of the Council?
~Ally
Date: 18 Oct 1998 12:07:09 EDT
"Each man commited the same crime, there should be equal punishment for both if both the forfieture and the Honor duel are to be considered." - Brian Girvin
I'm afraid, sir, I'll have to disagree with you there. Each man did not commit the same crime. Dalamar missed a challenge he had agreed to attend. Huma did not. Huma agreed to a substitute match, lost, and went back on his word. Dal did not.
There may be those who think that the basic crime (i.e., betraying one's word) is the same, and it is not my place to decide whether they are right or wrong. It is my place, however, to let my opinion be known here.
No two crimes are ever the same. Ever. On these very boards Guy Savage has already drawn an example of two "murders", and I don't feel I need to sprinkle more such examples throughout the community. The whole reason for the existence of the Baronial Council is this very fact, that every given situation is different and must be examined from different perspectives (the inevitable shifting of members). If we were to have one set course of
action, should it not be written down and placed in the rules for all time to be as underlying a tenet as the number of fancies available to certain ranks?
And furthermore, if these two crimes are indeed the same, then they are a matter of a man breaking his word, which clearly falls in the realm of ethics and morality. Is that what we mean to establish as the role of the Council?
~Ally
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From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 12:40:12 EDT
And furthermore, if these two crimes are indeed the same, then they are a matter of a man breaking his word, which clearly falls in the realm of ethics and morality. Is that what we mean to establish as the role of the Council?
~Ally
By the heavens Ally that is what I have been asking since this all began and no one yet has answered it.
~Brian
Date: 18 Oct 1998 12:40:12 EDT
And furthermore, if these two crimes are indeed the same, then they are a matter of a man breaking his word, which clearly falls in the realm of ethics and morality. Is that what we mean to establish as the role of the Council?
~Ally
By the heavens Ally that is what I have been asking since this all began and no one yet has answered it.
~Brian
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 15:16:29 EDT
Gnimmie Poo.
Nice to see thee crawl out of the woodwork. Tis nae oft the community hast the chance to be so enlightened by thee. Let it nae be said that thee, only the second Overlord to abandon his title, whining that he could nae longer stand the pressures and burdens of the mantle, hast nae the right to express his opinions.
Cordially,
Jona.
Date: 18 Oct 1998 15:16:29 EDT
Gnimmie Poo.
Nice to see thee crawl out of the woodwork. Tis nae oft the community hast the chance to be so enlightened by thee. Let it nae be said that thee, only the second Overlord to abandon his title, whining that he could nae longer stand the pressures and burdens of the mantle, hast nae the right to express his opinions.
Cordially,
Jona.
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From: gnimishrw@aol.com (Gnimish RW)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 18:44:35 EDT
Jonalyn,
Obviously something I said must ring a little too truthful for your ears, since you seem to have resorted to attempting to insult me rather than address the questions and comments I have made.
-Gnimish Gnimoi
Companion and Love to Cygnet Seraphin
Lord of House Gnimoi
Emperor of Shylasa
Warlord of DoS
Date: 18 Oct 1998 18:44:35 EDT
Jonalyn,
Obviously something I said must ring a little too truthful for your ears, since you seem to have resorted to attempting to insult me rather than address the questions and comments I have made.
-Gnimish Gnimoi
Companion and Love to Cygnet Seraphin
Lord of House Gnimoi
Emperor of Shylasa
Warlord of DoS
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From: xxlucianxx@aol.com (XxLucianxX)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 21:12:25 EDT
Gnimmish,
Let me just put your worries at ease and say that I doubt *anything* you say could be taken as *too* truthful by the public at large. I hope my assurances put your mind to ease.
-- Lucian
Date: 18 Oct 1998 21:12:25 EDT
Gnimmish,
Let me just put your worries at ease and say that I doubt *anything* you say could be taken as *too* truthful by the public at large. I hope my assurances put your mind to ease.
-- Lucian
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 23:45:14 EDT
Brian...
I will question the words of Billy Ray.
You wrote, The duel of swords is about dueling, or does any here wish to question the wisdom of one of the most stellar duelers to have graced the rings, Billy Ray Karnefexx. He said on many occasions, "Honor don't mean nothin' if ya can't win."
Honor and skill are two separate things, and always should be. Many of the most honorable people I know remain in the lower ranks of the sport, while some of the more honorless persons attain the higher...
Honor must first mean something to -you-... then it will mean something to those close to you, and finally it will mean something to the community at large.
I thank you for your time.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon
Date: 18 Oct 1998 23:45:14 EDT
Brian...
I will question the words of Billy Ray.
You wrote, The duel of swords is about dueling, or does any here wish to question the wisdom of one of the most stellar duelers to have graced the rings, Billy Ray Karnefexx. He said on many occasions, "Honor don't mean nothin' if ya can't win."
Honor and skill are two separate things, and always should be. Many of the most honorable people I know remain in the lower ranks of the sport, while some of the more honorless persons attain the higher...
Honor must first mean something to -you-... then it will mean something to those close to you, and finally it will mean something to the community at large.
I thank you for your time.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 00:02:12 EDT
On two subjects brought up by this line of thought...
I have found Lord Gnimoi to be a good and loyal friend... if a bit acerbic at times. So would I say he knows what loyalty is? Yes, without a doubt.
As I placed in a responce to Percival, though two murders may -not- be the same, they must -both- be brought before the law. No matter how well justified a thing is, the law -must- be served. It is Justice that answers to the mitigating circumstance, not the law.
I thank you for your time.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon
Date: 19 Oct 1998 00:02:12 EDT
On two subjects brought up by this line of thought...
I have found Lord Gnimoi to be a good and loyal friend... if a bit acerbic at times. So would I say he knows what loyalty is? Yes, without a doubt.
As I placed in a responce to Percival, though two murders may -not- be the same, they must -both- be brought before the law. No matter how well justified a thing is, the law -must- be served. It is Justice that answers to the mitigating circumstance, not the law.
I thank you for your time.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon
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From: gnimishrw@aol.com (Gnimish RW)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 00:08:51 EDT
Lucian....
I give you the same words I offered Jonalyn.
Sticking to the subject might bring the debate to a more expedient resolution.
-Gnimish Gnimoi
Companion and Love to Cygnet Seraphin
Lord of House Gnimoi
Emperor of Shylasa
Warlord of DoS
Date: 19 Oct 1998 00:08:51 EDT
Lucian....
I give you the same words I offered Jonalyn.
Sticking to the subject might bring the debate to a more expedient resolution.
-Gnimish Gnimoi
Companion and Love to Cygnet Seraphin
Lord of House Gnimoi
Emperor of Shylasa
Warlord of DoS
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From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 19 Oct 1998 07:57:51 EDT
Drake,
Well said, but as I recall my feelings on honor where scoffed at by many of the same people that now seek to champion honor. There is no room for honor to apply in one situation and not in the other. Honor, nor the law, changes on any man's wishes. If the Baron's council was so enamored with honor, they would have done all that they could to have prevented a man that has shown no respect for the title of Baron a chance to soil yet another ring by
winning it and tossing it aside. Should that man have won it would have removed a renegade from the council at the time of a vote on the Overlord himself, so is that why there was no attempt to stop this challenge? I have seen much talk of the "Questrion Rising" and how those that took part lacked honor, tell me that no one else can see a pattern here. A man only challenges Renegades at strategic times and yet that is not politically driven? I
cannot say that I have a shred of proof to what I have stated. Simple observation shows that people in DoS only cry for honor when their agenda is called to question.
Yes, I do have a strong value in Honor, but Baron Oakenshield told me I should remember that is it mine and cannot be applied to anyone else. I believe Honor superceeds all and is constant, and thus I choose to say that either the council is to be consistant in enforcing honor, or it is to stay from it. The more the Baron's council become a body politic the less
touch they have with the very people you point out Drake, the common folk. The people that break their back in their living. I have never seen one political body will to give up prestige to truely understand and live with the common folk. The people that make any kingdom or power work. It is never those of high authority, but humility is the first lesson of honor.
I fear far too few in the Arena have yet to learn the lesson that the man that lifts himself up will fall, but the man that lowers himself becomes great.
Constant,
~Brian Girvin
Date: 19 Oct 1998 07:57:51 EDT
Drake,
Well said, but as I recall my feelings on honor where scoffed at by many of the same people that now seek to champion honor. There is no room for honor to apply in one situation and not in the other. Honor, nor the law, changes on any man's wishes. If the Baron's council was so enamored with honor, they would have done all that they could to have prevented a man that has shown no respect for the title of Baron a chance to soil yet another ring by
winning it and tossing it aside. Should that man have won it would have removed a renegade from the council at the time of a vote on the Overlord himself, so is that why there was no attempt to stop this challenge? I have seen much talk of the "Questrion Rising" and how those that took part lacked honor, tell me that no one else can see a pattern here. A man only challenges Renegades at strategic times and yet that is not politically driven? I
cannot say that I have a shred of proof to what I have stated. Simple observation shows that people in DoS only cry for honor when their agenda is called to question.
Yes, I do have a strong value in Honor, but Baron Oakenshield told me I should remember that is it mine and cannot be applied to anyone else. I believe Honor superceeds all and is constant, and thus I choose to say that either the council is to be consistant in enforcing honor, or it is to stay from it. The more the Baron's council become a body politic the less
touch they have with the very people you point out Drake, the common folk. The people that break their back in their living. I have never seen one political body will to give up prestige to truely understand and live with the common folk. The people that make any kingdom or power work. It is never those of high authority, but humility is the first lesson of honor.
I fear far too few in the Arena have yet to learn the lesson that the man that lifts himself up will fall, but the man that lowers himself becomes great.
Constant,
~Brian Girvin