From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 14:57:20 EST
I would like to submit the following suggestion for the consideration of the Community and the Sport in light of the controversy surrounding Huma's challenge to Dal, the subsequent forfeir, and the Duel of Honor that followed. Most of the controversy stemmed from this duel, and arguments about whether or not the Baron's Council should consider or enforce it. What's done
is done, and the past cannot be changed whether we agree or disagree with the decision.
Something can be done however, to prevent such controversies from reaching similar points in the future. I would suggest that an unnofficial, nonpolitical body be formed to deal with such disputes. Such a group would codify rules for such disputes, and regulate the duels themselves. Because they would have no official power, and would be unpolitical in nature, its only purpose would be to monitor and regulate such matches.
I would propose that such a group be made of Barons and Warlords, and that it operate as an formal, but unofficial, body. I would be very interested in hearing the thoughts and opinions of the other members of the Community and Sport.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Member of House Dragoon-Talandor
Headmaster, Clermont Academy
Captain, Rising Stars
A Suggestion For Your Consideration
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From: humadragbn@aol.com (HumaDragbn)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 15:15:03 EST
::puts up a sticky pad note::
Percy, save yourself the headache and just put it to rest.
Huma
Date: 23 Nov 1998 15:15:03 EST
::puts up a sticky pad note::
Percy, save yourself the headache and just put it to rest.
Huma
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 15:23:56 EST
Pardon my confusion here, Percival. I'm honestly hoping to clarify this as how I see it.
What I am reading (correct me if I'm wrong), is that you want an unofficial group to regulate these duels of honor? If that is the case, then you and I get to disagree again. I have a few reasons:
- Personally, I feel the duels of honor are stupid. It forces people to do things they don't feel is right. For example, if two people were to hold a duel of honor to see which one HAD to help an old lady cross the road, the "true honor" would be to help the lady because you think it's right. That's the basic principle.
- The duels of honor should be unofficial by nature, regardless of who calls it. If an official does call it, the duelers should let the officials know that they don't want it to be official. If the caller refuses to make it unofficial, then the duelers have the option to have a different caller. I personally don't think there should be any honor matches, but it's like smoking in the arena; I can't make others stop, so that's just some words of
advice.
That's all I'm going to say until I am sure I'm on the right track.
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Holder of the Tenth Ring¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
Date: 23 Nov 1998 15:23:56 EST
Pardon my confusion here, Percival. I'm honestly hoping to clarify this as how I see it.
What I am reading (correct me if I'm wrong), is that you want an unofficial group to regulate these duels of honor? If that is the case, then you and I get to disagree again. I have a few reasons:
- Personally, I feel the duels of honor are stupid. It forces people to do things they don't feel is right. For example, if two people were to hold a duel of honor to see which one HAD to help an old lady cross the road, the "true honor" would be to help the lady because you think it's right. That's the basic principle.
- The duels of honor should be unofficial by nature, regardless of who calls it. If an official does call it, the duelers should let the officials know that they don't want it to be official. If the caller refuses to make it unofficial, then the duelers have the option to have a different caller. I personally don't think there should be any honor matches, but it's like smoking in the arena; I can't make others stop, so that's just some words of
advice.
That's all I'm going to say until I am sure I'm on the right track.
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Holder of the Tenth Ring¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 15:41:41 EST
Var,
Why are honor duels stupid? Sometimes ya can't settle a matter with an official duel, because officials don't have power over da world; just our sport.
Hypothetical:
Dueler X kidnapps Noelle. He comes forth and challenges ya ta a duel of honor. Should you win he will return yer wife unharmed, should he win he wants ya ta retire yer ring and in return will den return Noelle unharmed. How could officials intercede here? Granted a unofficial body could do very little except try and find yer wife, but ya see me point. Sometimes ya gotta fight over somethin' dat da DoS RDIs have no power ta control.
~J
Date: 23 Nov 1998 15:41:41 EST
Var,
Why are honor duels stupid? Sometimes ya can't settle a matter with an official duel, because officials don't have power over da world; just our sport.
Hypothetical:
Dueler X kidnapps Noelle. He comes forth and challenges ya ta a duel of honor. Should you win he will return yer wife unharmed, should he win he wants ya ta retire yer ring and in return will den return Noelle unharmed. How could officials intercede here? Granted a unofficial body could do very little except try and find yer wife, but ya see me point. Sometimes ya gotta fight over somethin' dat da DoS RDIs have no power ta control.
~J
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From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 16:12:21 EST
Jeff,
I couldn't agree more that sometimes you have to fight over something that the RDIs in DoS have no control over.
Something like a lady's honor and the like, people have every right to duel over, but unless they take into the rings on an official night the results have nothing to do with DoS nor can those officials enforce the outcome if the match itself comes under the umbrella of the sport.
The jist? Well said.
Collie
Date: 23 Nov 1998 16:12:21 EST
Jeff,
I couldn't agree more that sometimes you have to fight over something that the RDIs in DoS have no control over.
Something like a lady's honor and the like, people have every right to duel over, but unless they take into the rings on an official night the results have nothing to do with DoS nor can those officials enforce the outcome if the match itself comes under the umbrella of the sport.
The jist? Well said.
Collie
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 16:24:40 EST
Folks,
Jeff, Collie, and Var all make excellent points, Var against the duels in question and Collie and Jeff for. But, in an attempt to get things on track, I will say this. The discussion is not the merits or demerits of honor duels. Enough people believe in them that they will continue to be fought whether some people believe in them or not.
My suggestion is that since they will be fought, there should be a body to regulate them somewhat. While they cannot be handled under the umbrella of the sport, there needs to be a way to set certain standards and codify certain procedures.
The question is this: what does everyone think of the idea as it was presented?
Date: 23 Nov 1998 16:24:40 EST
Folks,
Jeff, Collie, and Var all make excellent points, Var against the duels in question and Collie and Jeff for. But, in an attempt to get things on track, I will say this. The discussion is not the merits or demerits of honor duels. Enough people believe in them that they will continue to be fought whether some people believe in them or not.
My suggestion is that since they will be fought, there should be a body to regulate them somewhat. While they cannot be handled under the umbrella of the sport, there needs to be a way to set certain standards and codify certain procedures.
The question is this: what does everyone think of the idea as it was presented?
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 16:25:31 EST
...laughs sheepsishly and comes back ro sign his note...
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Member of HDT
Etc, etc
Date: 23 Nov 1998 16:25:31 EST
...laughs sheepsishly and comes back ro sign his note...
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Member of HDT
Etc, etc
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From: carnage669@aol.com (Carnage669)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:01:19 EST
Question Percy,
I would just like to know how a body could in fact help to regulate these.
Cletus
Still confused
Guardian of Polaris
Humble Warlord of DoS
Member of The Rising Stars (TDL)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:01:19 EST
Question Percy,
I would just like to know how a body could in fact help to regulate these.
Cletus
Still confused
Guardian of Polaris
Humble Warlord of DoS
Member of The Rising Stars (TDL)
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:31:55 EST
I just have this to say...
Should someone kidnap my Jhessail, or my daughter Delilah, then demand an "honor match" to gain their return... It's quite obvious to me that the person who demands such has no honor and deserves -only- to have their life ended.
The idea of so-called Honor Duels is bizarre in the extreme... Even more so, the idea of trying to force an Honor Duel on someone is the height of dis-honor.
If you have an issue with someone, duel them in an official duel. The idea that you should arrange a special duel just to satisfy honor makes no sense. In fact, the idea that you -have- to duel to satisfy honor makes little sense.
Duel to relax, duel to blow of steam, duel to exercize, duel to socialize... but above all, duel because you -want- to.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:31:55 EST
I just have this to say...
Should someone kidnap my Jhessail, or my daughter Delilah, then demand an "honor match" to gain their return... It's quite obvious to me that the person who demands such has no honor and deserves -only- to have their life ended.
The idea of so-called Honor Duels is bizarre in the extreme... Even more so, the idea of trying to force an Honor Duel on someone is the height of dis-honor.
If you have an issue with someone, duel them in an official duel. The idea that you should arrange a special duel just to satisfy honor makes no sense. In fact, the idea that you -have- to duel to satisfy honor makes little sense.
Duel to relax, duel to blow of steam, duel to exercize, duel to socialize... but above all, duel because you -want- to.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:58:27 EST
Drake,
How was my duel with Huma dishonorable? He proposed a solution, I accepted. Up until he reneged, where was da dishonor?
Awaiting an answer,
~J
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:58:27 EST
Drake,
How was my duel with Huma dishonorable? He proposed a solution, I accepted. Up until he reneged, where was da dishonor?
Awaiting an answer,
~J
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 24 Nov 1998 00:37:57 EST
Well,
If I may speak for Drake here, Jeff. I don't believe she was calling your duel with Huma dishonorable. I believe her point was that Honor Duels are unnessacery.
And besides, no specific duels were mentioned.
G'nort Espelande G'neesmacher Dragoon Talanador
Head of House Dragoon Talanador
Thrice Baron of the DoS
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master"
Date: 24 Nov 1998 00:37:57 EST
Well,
If I may speak for Drake here, Jeff. I don't believe she was calling your duel with Huma dishonorable. I believe her point was that Honor Duels are unnessacery.
And besides, no specific duels were mentioned.
G'nort Espelande G'neesmacher Dragoon Talanador
Head of House Dragoon Talanador
Thrice Baron of the DoS
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master"
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 24 Nov 1998 00:39:24 EST
Well Jeff...
I didn't say your duel with Huma was dishonorable, I just said that it didn't make any sense. If, in fact, Dalamar had told you -and- Nycholas that you were to be his Champion and Test Huma, then you should have said so from the begining. Then the duel could have gone forward as a Test of Worthiness, not as an "Honor Duel."
I am sorry if that sounds accusatory, especially so long after the fact... I just don't know any better way to say it... and you did ask.
What I'm trying to say here is... so-called "Honor Duels" rarely serve to solve anything.
I believe I said it once before... just because a person is a better dueler than someone else does not make that person more honorable or more correct.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon
Date: 24 Nov 1998 00:39:24 EST
Well Jeff...
I didn't say your duel with Huma was dishonorable, I just said that it didn't make any sense. If, in fact, Dalamar had told you -and- Nycholas that you were to be his Champion and Test Huma, then you should have said so from the begining. Then the duel could have gone forward as a Test of Worthiness, not as an "Honor Duel."
I am sorry if that sounds accusatory, especially so long after the fact... I just don't know any better way to say it... and you did ask.
What I'm trying to say here is... so-called "Honor Duels" rarely serve to solve anything.
I believe I said it once before... just because a person is a better dueler than someone else does not make that person more honorable or more correct.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 24 Nov 1998 01:45:26 EST
" I believe I said it once before... just because a person is a better dueler than someone else does not make that person more honorable or more correct."
Agreed!
Date: 24 Nov 1998 01:45:26 EST
" I believe I said it once before... just because a person is a better dueler than someone else does not make that person more honorable or more correct."
Agreed!
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 24 Nov 1998 10:28:55 EST
I think that if a group, unofficial or not, needs to be brought in to monitor an honor duel, then it defeats the point of the honor duel in the first place -- promising something on no more than your honor that if you win, this will happen, and if you lose, that will happen. An honorable person, fighting an honor duel, will keep his oath without having someone hanging over his shoulder to make sure he follows
through-- that is the point. Bringing in a group to monitor it takes some of the meaning away from the honor duel.
But really, do we not already have an unofficial body judging honor duels? Case in point, Jeff and Huma's honor duel. Unofficially, just about everyone who had knowledge of the matter had an opinion and "judged" accordingly.
Date: 24 Nov 1998 10:28:55 EST
I think that if a group, unofficial or not, needs to be brought in to monitor an honor duel, then it defeats the point of the honor duel in the first place -- promising something on no more than your honor that if you win, this will happen, and if you lose, that will happen. An honorable person, fighting an honor duel, will keep his oath without having someone hanging over his shoulder to make sure he follows
through-- that is the point. Bringing in a group to monitor it takes some of the meaning away from the honor duel.
But really, do we not already have an unofficial body judging honor duels? Case in point, Jeff and Huma's honor duel. Unofficially, just about everyone who had knowledge of the matter had an opinion and "judged" accordingly.