From: carnage669@aol.com (Carnage669)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 09:44:59 EST
Well, I believe that everyone knows where I stand on this matter. So there is no use repeating it...but I ask one question to our oathbreaking Overlord. What reason(s) did you have for testing the Baron?
Cletus
Seeing things in a different way
Guardian of Polaris
Renegade Baron of the 5th
Member of The Rising Stars (TDL)
Hipocracy
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From: occurs@aol.com (Occurs)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 13:40:24 EST
::reads Tom's note to her:: >Summer, I never said I wanted Dal to step down, in fact, I didn't state I
>wanted -anything- to happen to Dal. I just want him to start acting like the
>good dueler, and Overlord he is.
>
::replies::
Now Tom,
I nae be talking about ya. Me problem with ya is that ya be jawing about how ya like ta see me Jeff bleed. I hae been known ta hae a problem about that.
As for ta particular statement of Stupid: It hae come ta me attention that ta person I overheard intended it ta be a comment upon ta whole situation - nae a comment upon Magnus himself.
Given it could be understood ta hae meant as I saw it, and he saw it; I guess it best ta say he know his heart best and mayhaps I be mistaken.
Summer
Date: 04 Jan 1999 13:40:24 EST
::reads Tom's note to her:: >Summer, I never said I wanted Dal to step down, in fact, I didn't state I
>wanted -anything- to happen to Dal. I just want him to start acting like the
>good dueler, and Overlord he is.
>
::replies::
Now Tom,
I nae be talking about ya. Me problem with ya is that ya be jawing about how ya like ta see me Jeff bleed. I hae been known ta hae a problem about that.
As for ta particular statement of Stupid: It hae come ta me attention that ta person I overheard intended it ta be a comment upon ta whole situation - nae a comment upon Magnus himself.
Given it could be understood ta hae meant as I saw it, and he saw it; I guess it best ta say he know his heart best and mayhaps I be mistaken.
Summer
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From: waikrboh@aol.com (WaIkrBoh)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 13:54:59 EST
I could sum up this whole discussion in a few short words, but I have never been one to make such blatant insults (at least, I haven't mean it). Perhaps this discussion could use an influx of new ideas?
There are a few facts many, including Dalamar seem to be forgetting. Looking back on Dalamar's reign, there have been only two intercession against challengers for his title that have succeeded. Around 8 (I'm not sure here, just guessing) have failed. In Best of Three Series, which has been used around 7 times or so, Dalamar has won all of them (obviously), and a couple in only two duels. Dalamar also has had two single duel defenses.
All those of you who decry that the Overlord is not fighting is own fights is dead wrong. Usually his champions fail miserably. He has won around 24 matches in defense of his title. His champions have won 2 (not counting against Renegade intercessions, but they are not directly in defense of the title).
If anyone wants to say that the matches are tiring out the challenger, then perhaps the challenger doesn't deserve to be the Overlord if they cannot last through two matches. Personally, I find the tests a complete waste of time for all involved if they fail, which they have done in the past. All they do for Dalamar is give him an increased chance of a defense. As such a good dueler that he is, I would think that he would be able to beat any
challenger 2 out of 3. But, as we all know, he's so selfish that he'll waste the crowd's and everyone else's time with an small attempt to raise the chance of him successfully defending.
Both sides of this make me completely nauseated, with each of them ignoring important facts. The "debate" over Dalamar's policy is pointless. Those that hate him have another reason to, those that are Loyal find it completely within reason (heck, they're not going to be challenging him, what do they care?). Both sides in it for their own gain, as they should be, but both sides believing it to be for the common good. It sickens me.
Let me state this: I do not necessarily seek the common good in this place. I seek the best path to further my own goals, whatever they are. I do not delude myself with delusions of altruism. In my opinion, the world does not need the altruist, especially those that think they are when they most certainly are not. Figure out your goals, and act most appropriately in reaching them. If I seem to you to not follow this philosophy, that is because
you have no idea what my goals are.
I will not be challenging Dalamar anytime soon. The rules states that the Overlord is the Supreme Dueler of the Duel of Swords. I do not believe that I am that person as long as Dalamar shows that he is. Do so many other people actually think they are? Apparently.
Although I may be doing this myself, I hope that this discussion does not drag out into pointless arguments over who is right. You both are right. You will not convince each other that the other is wrong. You will make yourself look like fools by calling each other hypocrites and tearing apart weak arguments while offering weak arguments of your own. Will the cycle ever stop?
-Walker Boh
Baron of the 12th
Date: 04 Jan 1999 13:54:59 EST
I could sum up this whole discussion in a few short words, but I have never been one to make such blatant insults (at least, I haven't mean it). Perhaps this discussion could use an influx of new ideas?
There are a few facts many, including Dalamar seem to be forgetting. Looking back on Dalamar's reign, there have been only two intercession against challengers for his title that have succeeded. Around 8 (I'm not sure here, just guessing) have failed. In Best of Three Series, which has been used around 7 times or so, Dalamar has won all of them (obviously), and a couple in only two duels. Dalamar also has had two single duel defenses.
All those of you who decry that the Overlord is not fighting is own fights is dead wrong. Usually his champions fail miserably. He has won around 24 matches in defense of his title. His champions have won 2 (not counting against Renegade intercessions, but they are not directly in defense of the title).
If anyone wants to say that the matches are tiring out the challenger, then perhaps the challenger doesn't deserve to be the Overlord if they cannot last through two matches. Personally, I find the tests a complete waste of time for all involved if they fail, which they have done in the past. All they do for Dalamar is give him an increased chance of a defense. As such a good dueler that he is, I would think that he would be able to beat any
challenger 2 out of 3. But, as we all know, he's so selfish that he'll waste the crowd's and everyone else's time with an small attempt to raise the chance of him successfully defending.
Both sides of this make me completely nauseated, with each of them ignoring important facts. The "debate" over Dalamar's policy is pointless. Those that hate him have another reason to, those that are Loyal find it completely within reason (heck, they're not going to be challenging him, what do they care?). Both sides in it for their own gain, as they should be, but both sides believing it to be for the common good. It sickens me.
Let me state this: I do not necessarily seek the common good in this place. I seek the best path to further my own goals, whatever they are. I do not delude myself with delusions of altruism. In my opinion, the world does not need the altruist, especially those that think they are when they most certainly are not. Figure out your goals, and act most appropriately in reaching them. If I seem to you to not follow this philosophy, that is because
you have no idea what my goals are.
I will not be challenging Dalamar anytime soon. The rules states that the Overlord is the Supreme Dueler of the Duel of Swords. I do not believe that I am that person as long as Dalamar shows that he is. Do so many other people actually think they are? Apparently.
Although I may be doing this myself, I hope that this discussion does not drag out into pointless arguments over who is right. You both are right. You will not convince each other that the other is wrong. You will make yourself look like fools by calling each other hypocrites and tearing apart weak arguments while offering weak arguments of your own. Will the cycle ever stop?
-Walker Boh
Baron of the 12th
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 14:05:21 EST
No one ever seems ta read my posts so I'll say it once more and I'll keep it short and simple.
I wanted a piece of Magnus cause I didn't want him ta be OL. I asked Dalamar fer a shot at him and was granted my shot. Period. Policies or no I made a request and it was granted. Wake up folks it was my askin' not a test of worthiness.
~J
Date: 04 Jan 1999 14:05:21 EST
No one ever seems ta read my posts so I'll say it once more and I'll keep it short and simple.
I wanted a piece of Magnus cause I didn't want him ta be OL. I asked Dalamar fer a shot at him and was granted my shot. Period. Policies or no I made a request and it was granted. Wake up folks it was my askin' not a test of worthiness.
~J
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From: lrdevasion@aol.com (LrdEvasion)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 14:26:14 EST
Jeff... after knowingly known that Dal took the oath..?
~Tom
Date: 04 Jan 1999 14:26:14 EST
Jeff... after knowingly known that Dal took the oath..?
~Tom
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From: ixdaelinxi@aol.com (IXDaelinXI)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 14:33:55 EST
Alrighty, that really sorts things out. But either way, as both Var and Zen pointed out, Even if it was a "personal" oath to Kal, Dal announced it publicly. Who knows, maybe that was part of the deal to announce it to the dueling community. Either way, if he meant as long as Kal was a Baron he should have said so...he did not and so he is breaking an oath however minute as some people may see it. Although Jeff points out
that he wanted to fight Magnus to prevent him from becoming Overlord and that it was not a Test, the Overlord could have declined, but to grant the wishes of his friend is in good taste...however, maybe we should have been notified of this as well.
::scrawled in blazing blue ink::
~Daelin Dragonsblade~
~Warlord of the DoS~
~Regent King of Dragonia~
~Member of House Dragoon-Talanador~
~~Two wrongs don't make a right~~
~~However, two lefts do~~
Date: 04 Jan 1999 14:33:55 EST
Alrighty, that really sorts things out. But either way, as both Var and Zen pointed out, Even if it was a "personal" oath to Kal, Dal announced it publicly. Who knows, maybe that was part of the deal to announce it to the dueling community. Either way, if he meant as long as Kal was a Baron he should have said so...he did not and so he is breaking an oath however minute as some people may see it. Although Jeff points out
that he wanted to fight Magnus to prevent him from becoming Overlord and that it was not a Test, the Overlord could have declined, but to grant the wishes of his friend is in good taste...however, maybe we should have been notified of this as well.
::scrawled in blazing blue ink::
~Daelin Dragonsblade~
~Warlord of the DoS~
~Regent King of Dragonia~
~Member of House Dragoon-Talanador~
~~Two wrongs don't make a right~~
~~However, two lefts do~~
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 15:06:22 EST
<<Although Jeff points out that he wanted to fight Magnus to prevent him from becoming Overlord and that it was not a Test, the Overlord could have declined, but to grant the wishes of his friend is in good taste...however, maybe we should have been notified of this as well.>>
Daelin,
I've posted on dis subject at least 3 times, explainin' me position and request each time. People are just out ta scream at Dal.
Also, I'd like everyone ta recognize Dalamar has defend himself more dan ANY other Overlord in da history of DoS. But heaven forbid he uses a champion on occassion ta appease a loyalist. Anyhow keep writin' nonsense folks, when ya realize what's goin' on here maybe it'll make more sense ta ya. Seems Daelin is da only one who can read and comprehend.
~J
Date: 04 Jan 1999 15:06:22 EST
<<Although Jeff points out that he wanted to fight Magnus to prevent him from becoming Overlord and that it was not a Test, the Overlord could have declined, but to grant the wishes of his friend is in good taste...however, maybe we should have been notified of this as well.>>
Daelin,
I've posted on dis subject at least 3 times, explainin' me position and request each time. People are just out ta scream at Dal.
Also, I'd like everyone ta recognize Dalamar has defend himself more dan ANY other Overlord in da history of DoS. But heaven forbid he uses a champion on occassion ta appease a loyalist. Anyhow keep writin' nonsense folks, when ya realize what's goin' on here maybe it'll make more sense ta ya. Seems Daelin is da only one who can read and comprehend.
~J
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From: xxlucianxx@aol.com (XxLucianxX)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:00:20 EST
Just as an educational point to the postings.. I believe the word that so many of you are trying to convey is "hypocrisy". I believe "hipocracy" is more of a form of government amongst large beasts, perhaps, than the ideas that you are trying to convey.. although I could be totally off base here and be missing the zoology of it all..
-- Lucian
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:00:20 EST
Just as an educational point to the postings.. I believe the word that so many of you are trying to convey is "hypocrisy". I believe "hipocracy" is more of a form of government amongst large beasts, perhaps, than the ideas that you are trying to convey.. although I could be totally off base here and be missing the zoology of it all..
-- Lucian
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From: zen80s@aol.com (Zen 80s)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:17:11 EST
Daelin,
To be technical, two lefts make a backwards... three lefts make a right...
Lucian,
Haven't you noticed? The Duel of Swords Community has turned into a zoo.
Zen Rising
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:17:11 EST
Daelin,
To be technical, two lefts make a backwards... three lefts make a right...
Lucian,
Haven't you noticed? The Duel of Swords Community has turned into a zoo.
Zen Rising
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:17:27 EST
Why is it Dalamar's problem that most of you are too ignorant to know how treaties and pacts work?
The matter is very simple. Dalamar and Kalamere had an agreement. Dalamar agreed he would not test barons if Kalamere declared his loyalty to Dalamar. Kalamere is no longer a baron. Kalamere is unable to uphold his part of the bargain, thereby rendering the agreement void. Despite this simplicity, Kalamere took the time as a courtesy to formally release Dalamar from an agreement that was already null, just in case someone needed the extra
help at understanding such a basic concept. If anyone needs more help, try reading a book on treaties before talking about something you know nothing about.
Anyone who still upholds one part of the bargain without expecting the other person to uphold theirs, please let me know. You and everything you hold dear are ripe for takeover because you are too stupid to know any better and do not deserve to have anything of worth.
The abundance of ignorance and mob mentality along with the lack of maturity in this community is apalling and embarrassing. What ever happened to people knowing what they were talking about before they opened their mouths? It seems now all the fashion to show everyone how a person is utterly lacking in common sense and basic education.
Sick of it all,
Morgan
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:17:27 EST
Why is it Dalamar's problem that most of you are too ignorant to know how treaties and pacts work?
The matter is very simple. Dalamar and Kalamere had an agreement. Dalamar agreed he would not test barons if Kalamere declared his loyalty to Dalamar. Kalamere is no longer a baron. Kalamere is unable to uphold his part of the bargain, thereby rendering the agreement void. Despite this simplicity, Kalamere took the time as a courtesy to formally release Dalamar from an agreement that was already null, just in case someone needed the extra
help at understanding such a basic concept. If anyone needs more help, try reading a book on treaties before talking about something you know nothing about.
Anyone who still upholds one part of the bargain without expecting the other person to uphold theirs, please let me know. You and everything you hold dear are ripe for takeover because you are too stupid to know any better and do not deserve to have anything of worth.
The abundance of ignorance and mob mentality along with the lack of maturity in this community is apalling and embarrassing. What ever happened to people knowing what they were talking about before they opened their mouths? It seems now all the fashion to show everyone how a person is utterly lacking in common sense and basic education.
Sick of it all,
Morgan
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:25:59 EST
"Even if it was a "personal" oath to Kal, Dal announced it publicly."
So what? It was announced as a courtesy. It does not give the public any more right or say in the matter than it did before. The agreement was between two people: Dalamar and Kalamere, are you either of them? No. Dalamar chose to release the nature of the agreement. That does not mean it automatically puts the public in partnership with either of the people involved in the agreement.
If you are not Dalamar or you are not Kalamere, you do not have a say in how they handle the agreement, you simply do not have the right and it does not concern you.
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:25:59 EST
"Even if it was a "personal" oath to Kal, Dal announced it publicly."
So what? It was announced as a courtesy. It does not give the public any more right or say in the matter than it did before. The agreement was between two people: Dalamar and Kalamere, are you either of them? No. Dalamar chose to release the nature of the agreement. That does not mean it automatically puts the public in partnership with either of the people involved in the agreement.
If you are not Dalamar or you are not Kalamere, you do not have a say in how they handle the agreement, you simply do not have the right and it does not concern you.
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:32:09 EST
>Anyone who still upholds one part of the bargain without expecting the other
>person to uphold theirs, please let me know. You and everything you hold
>dear are ripe for takeover because you are too stupid to know any better and
>do not deserve to have anything of worth.
This makes so much sense. Dal's words to the community have no meaning, right Morgan? It was no longer just between Kal and Dal when Dal mentioned this to the community, especially when he omitted the fact in his "policy change" that it was between him and Kal. He said, to the community, "From this point forth...".
Yeah, Morgan, it is sad to see people not knowing what they are talking about before they open their mouths.
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Holder of the Tenth Ring¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:32:09 EST
>Anyone who still upholds one part of the bargain without expecting the other
>person to uphold theirs, please let me know. You and everything you hold
>dear are ripe for takeover because you are too stupid to know any better and
>do not deserve to have anything of worth.
This makes so much sense. Dal's words to the community have no meaning, right Morgan? It was no longer just between Kal and Dal when Dal mentioned this to the community, especially when he omitted the fact in his "policy change" that it was between him and Kal. He said, to the community, "From this point forth...".
Yeah, Morgan, it is sad to see people not knowing what they are talking about before they open their mouths.
Var Medici-Giovanni
±
|¯Proud father, proud husband¯|
|¯Holder of the Tenth Ring¯|
|¯Soul dedicated to Noelle¯|
|¯Devoted to his children¯|
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From: carnage669@aol.com (Carnage669)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 17:21:56 EST
Then I guess I should ask this question to you Jeff...why didn't you want Magnus to be Overlord?
Just Curious,
Cletus
Date: 04 Jan 1999 17:21:56 EST
Then I guess I should ask this question to you Jeff...why didn't you want Magnus to be Overlord?
Just Curious,
Cletus
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From: xxlucianxx@aol.com (XxLucianxX)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 17:30:25 EST
To those that believe a party who is informed of an agreement somehow gains power over it,
I make an agreement with lord Oakenshield that I will offer dueling lessons to anyone in the realm, without cost, so long as he lets me live in his Manor. (Obviously this is hypothetical, as I would more likely be on the *taking* side of said lessons.) I announce on this ancient board "Dueling lessons, free of charge, contact me to set up a date and time to suit you," and many take me up on the offer. At a later date, as Jeffery and I have
become such close friends, he decides that he'll let me live in the Manor with no strings attached. I, in the interest of having more time for personal persuits, quit offering my lessons without any public notice. People who come to me are turned down politely. How many of you would come crying to me because I am dishonest for not informing the dueling public of every exact detail in my personal agreements? Far too many for me to stomach, I'd
imagine.
-- Lucian
Date: 04 Jan 1999 17:30:25 EST
To those that believe a party who is informed of an agreement somehow gains power over it,
I make an agreement with lord Oakenshield that I will offer dueling lessons to anyone in the realm, without cost, so long as he lets me live in his Manor. (Obviously this is hypothetical, as I would more likely be on the *taking* side of said lessons.) I announce on this ancient board "Dueling lessons, free of charge, contact me to set up a date and time to suit you," and many take me up on the offer. At a later date, as Jeffery and I have
become such close friends, he decides that he'll let me live in the Manor with no strings attached. I, in the interest of having more time for personal persuits, quit offering my lessons without any public notice. People who come to me are turned down politely. How many of you would come crying to me because I am dishonest for not informing the dueling public of every exact detail in my personal agreements? Far too many for me to stomach, I'd
imagine.
-- Lucian
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From: lrdevasion@aol.com (LrdEvasion)
Date: 04 Jan 1999 17:41:17 EST
Lucian, actually hipocracy isn't even a word. It's somewhat of a slang term referring to hipocrite. "The act of being a hipocrite"
~Tom
Date: 04 Jan 1999 17:41:17 EST
Lucian, actually hipocracy isn't even a word. It's somewhat of a slang term referring to hipocrite. "The act of being a hipocrite"
~Tom