From: jolasavage@aol.com (JolaSavage)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 09:29:06 EST
Jola tacks up a copy of the missive she sent to Golden for all to read.
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Supervisor Golden,
It is my understanding that you are in a position to rule on this matter. Therefore,
I herein present my final, amended proposal regarding children in the Duel of Swords arena. I am presenting these such that, if one part of the proposal is not accepted, it should not automatically mean the other parts are rejected as well. Please take each point separately under consideration.
1) No adult(1) would be allowed to duel a child(2) in an official match that affects standings.
2) A Junior Dueling League/System should be set up to accomodate child duelists. This system would have rankings, moves, etc, as the adult system does. The exception would be that the weapons of choice are limited to non-damaging weapons.
3) Any child in the arena must be accompanied by their parent or guardian, either in person, or by magical means.
4) To attain the rank of Baron or Overlord, a duelist must be an adult.
Footnotes:
(1) An adult, in this document, is considered to be someone at or over the age of maturity for their particular race or species. The age of maturity for any race or species is something that is typically available from all races and species and would not require a determination from anyone, as the precedents are already set in
their society.
(2) A child in this document is considered any person under the age of maturity for their particular race or species.
Thank you for your time.
Jola Savage
Final Proposal as sent to Golden
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 17:36:01 EST
Madame Savage
In perusuing your missive unto Golden, it goes e'en beyond thine original proposal.
1: Thee seek to now enforce strictures and sanctions upon the adult population ast well ast those thee consider "children".
2: The wouldst set up an exclusionary league and dictate the appropriate weaponry. Who, prithee would thee hae oversee such?
3: The wouldst attempt to force the staff into a position of policing each and every entrant by requiring someone to ascertain whether (a) Tis a child and (b) the child is accompanied and by what means. Tis manna parents wouldst nae wish the means used to protect their children to become public in that by knowing how a child ist protected, brigands, kidnappers, and all manner of heinous gangs or individuals may come by the knowledge and in so doing
be able to jeopardize the child.
4: Thine proposal wouldst deny unto those the titled ranks by an accident of birth.
In thine footnotes:
1: Aire thee planning to make a survey of each and every society and representative of the hundreds, nae, thousands, nae millions of races and species extant upon, above, below the planet of Rhydin, nae to mention those societies and representatives of each and every single one of the myriad and uncountable planets, universes, planes, dimensions, star systems, that aire known to exist?
2: Unless thee hae accurately accomplished (1) this proposal ist nae only impractical, tis nigh onto ludicrous.
Jonalyn Starfare
Date: 27 Jan 1999 17:36:01 EST
Madame Savage
In perusuing your missive unto Golden, it goes e'en beyond thine original proposal.
1: Thee seek to now enforce strictures and sanctions upon the adult population ast well ast those thee consider "children".
2: The wouldst set up an exclusionary league and dictate the appropriate weaponry. Who, prithee would thee hae oversee such?
3: The wouldst attempt to force the staff into a position of policing each and every entrant by requiring someone to ascertain whether (a) Tis a child and (b) the child is accompanied and by what means. Tis manna parents wouldst nae wish the means used to protect their children to become public in that by knowing how a child ist protected, brigands, kidnappers, and all manner of heinous gangs or individuals may come by the knowledge and in so doing
be able to jeopardize the child.
4: Thine proposal wouldst deny unto those the titled ranks by an accident of birth.
In thine footnotes:
1: Aire thee planning to make a survey of each and every society and representative of the hundreds, nae, thousands, nae millions of races and species extant upon, above, below the planet of Rhydin, nae to mention those societies and representatives of each and every single one of the myriad and uncountable planets, universes, planes, dimensions, star systems, that aire known to exist?
2: Unless thee hae accurately accomplished (1) this proposal ist nae only impractical, tis nigh onto ludicrous.
Jonalyn Starfare
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From: occurs@aol.com (Occurs)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 17:49:01 EST
Ta all,
I be one ta see ta ban as unenforceable, and when ya make a rule that ya can nae enforce, then it be a waste of paper.
But I do see ta Jola's point. She done want ta protect children, and I hae no quarrel with that. But I do see a problem in ta way she go about it. Making a flat rule nae work for ta Arena, it just be impossible ta enforce.
Under ya rule, me Jeff could nae take his daughter in ta ring, and gently lead her through her first lessons. Now I dare any of ya ta tell me Jeff that he can nae take our Charlie inta a ring if he be of mind. And I dare any of ya ta suggest, that me Jeff would ever harm a hair on our Charlie's head.
I also be disturbed, deeply disturbed, when we begin talk on ta banning anyone from ta rings. Ta life here be too rich, too exciting for that. Now who here can even tell me at what age a dragon be considered a babe, or a windling? Ta age fourteen be too arbitrary: for a dwarf it be a babe, for a pixie it be one step from ta grave.
But mayhaps we there could be room for compromise here, a way ta send out ta message that skewering a seven year olds guts inta ta sand nae be something that we respect in a warrior, yet admitting that there be children, like ta Rhi, who be blessed or cursed with an uncommon skill.
I admit, I done seen a few young ones that should be picked up by their ears and sent ta bed. Why one lad done run inta a challenge ring without so much as a get go.
I be interested in seeing a few ideas.
Summer
Date: 27 Jan 1999 17:49:01 EST
Ta all,
I be one ta see ta ban as unenforceable, and when ya make a rule that ya can nae enforce, then it be a waste of paper.
But I do see ta Jola's point. She done want ta protect children, and I hae no quarrel with that. But I do see a problem in ta way she go about it. Making a flat rule nae work for ta Arena, it just be impossible ta enforce.
Under ya rule, me Jeff could nae take his daughter in ta ring, and gently lead her through her first lessons. Now I dare any of ya ta tell me Jeff that he can nae take our Charlie inta a ring if he be of mind. And I dare any of ya ta suggest, that me Jeff would ever harm a hair on our Charlie's head.
I also be disturbed, deeply disturbed, when we begin talk on ta banning anyone from ta rings. Ta life here be too rich, too exciting for that. Now who here can even tell me at what age a dragon be considered a babe, or a windling? Ta age fourteen be too arbitrary: for a dwarf it be a babe, for a pixie it be one step from ta grave.
But mayhaps we there could be room for compromise here, a way ta send out ta message that skewering a seven year olds guts inta ta sand nae be something that we respect in a warrior, yet admitting that there be children, like ta Rhi, who be blessed or cursed with an uncommon skill.
I admit, I done seen a few young ones that should be picked up by their ears and sent ta bed. Why one lad done run inta a challenge ring without so much as a get go.
I be interested in seeing a few ideas.
Summer
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From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 18:59:12 EST
Duelists,
You have all hopefully seen my daughter's writing on this issue. If not.. I'm sure you will find that she does indeed know that weapons are not toys among other things.
Since a request for formal debate had been made in missives, I offer this to the public.
The Duel of Swords is not a daycare center nor is it a preschool and the staff nor the participants are responsible for anyone's injuries regardless of their age. The issue of maturity was brought up, I have known many that are physically adults that do not have half the good manners and mature attitude of Miss Aislain Uziel, age eight, who sent her thoughts via Morgan on this issue. She is a credit to her parents and the dueling community at large.
Do not tell me that a young lady who ranks All Star in the TDL doesn't understand the sport.
Many people in this place preach of honor and virtue, but do they truly practice it? Honor is in reality a matter of being true to one's own code as a lady I know once said of someone departed. Is it honorable to strip away a what to some is a right earned among their people, to be a warrior?
Truth is my daughter has earned her right to participate in the rings, she currently holds the rank of Master at Arms, and has formerly held Grand Master, the youngest to ever do so. None can argue against the fact that she has earned her spurs as they say. Do you any of you, personally, wish to be the one there to deliver the news that she can't accomplish her goal of being the youngest person ever to be warlord?
Now, here's more food for thought. Often women who are pregnant duel, if this issue passes then NONE of them under the rules would be allowed to duel in the interests of their unborn. The unborn would be under 14 years of age and wouldn't be allowed to enter the ring. That again takes freedom of choice from the parent. I know that Drake and myself have both dueled at least in the early stages and that Summer's daughter was literally born in the ring.
The names of several mothers are among the duelists, now tell them if that they no longer have a choice in the matter of whether they can or not duel when pregnant.
Should this issue pass, I will delight in the day when women or wives of men who support this issue attempt to enter the ring while in a gravid state and are refused service.
Colleen Lasher
Date: 27 Jan 1999 18:59:12 EST
Duelists,
You have all hopefully seen my daughter's writing on this issue. If not.. I'm sure you will find that she does indeed know that weapons are not toys among other things.
Since a request for formal debate had been made in missives, I offer this to the public.
The Duel of Swords is not a daycare center nor is it a preschool and the staff nor the participants are responsible for anyone's injuries regardless of their age. The issue of maturity was brought up, I have known many that are physically adults that do not have half the good manners and mature attitude of Miss Aislain Uziel, age eight, who sent her thoughts via Morgan on this issue. She is a credit to her parents and the dueling community at large.
Do not tell me that a young lady who ranks All Star in the TDL doesn't understand the sport.
Many people in this place preach of honor and virtue, but do they truly practice it? Honor is in reality a matter of being true to one's own code as a lady I know once said of someone departed. Is it honorable to strip away a what to some is a right earned among their people, to be a warrior?
Truth is my daughter has earned her right to participate in the rings, she currently holds the rank of Master at Arms, and has formerly held Grand Master, the youngest to ever do so. None can argue against the fact that she has earned her spurs as they say. Do you any of you, personally, wish to be the one there to deliver the news that she can't accomplish her goal of being the youngest person ever to be warlord?
Now, here's more food for thought. Often women who are pregnant duel, if this issue passes then NONE of them under the rules would be allowed to duel in the interests of their unborn. The unborn would be under 14 years of age and wouldn't be allowed to enter the ring. That again takes freedom of choice from the parent. I know that Drake and myself have both dueled at least in the early stages and that Summer's daughter was literally born in the ring.
The names of several mothers are among the duelists, now tell them if that they no longer have a choice in the matter of whether they can or not duel when pregnant.
Should this issue pass, I will delight in the day when women or wives of men who support this issue attempt to enter the ring while in a gravid state and are refused service.
Colleen Lasher
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From: rlupton@aol.com (RLupton)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 21:37:17 EST
Colleen,
Simply because your daughter has achieved rank does not mean she should be dueling. Perhaps, and very likely, due to a desire not to hurt the child, our kind-hearted duelists did not duel her like they would others, and thus she rose in rank.
Dueling is a sport. Do you see children playing with adults in other physical sports? No, of course not. Do they play? Yes, indeed, but among themselves.
Under Jola's proposal, young Rhi can still make Warlord, dueling her peers while her parent is present. Safety and common sense is not bigotry or discrimination, but rather laws we govern our lives by.
~Lupton
Date: 27 Jan 1999 21:37:17 EST
Colleen,
Simply because your daughter has achieved rank does not mean she should be dueling. Perhaps, and very likely, due to a desire not to hurt the child, our kind-hearted duelists did not duel her like they would others, and thus she rose in rank.
Dueling is a sport. Do you see children playing with adults in other physical sports? No, of course not. Do they play? Yes, indeed, but among themselves.
Under Jola's proposal, young Rhi can still make Warlord, dueling her peers while her parent is present. Safety and common sense is not bigotry or discrimination, but rather laws we govern our lives by.
~Lupton
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From: tognakh@aol.com (Tognakh)
Date: 28 Jan 1999 14:12:27 EST
Tognakh marched up to the bulletin board and set his heavy-bladed glaive to the side as he hunched down to peer at the numerous pieces of paper tacked to it. He snorted as he read all the foolishness about excluding whelps from dueling in the rings.
Glancing around for something to write on, Tognakh grabbed up a nearby table, ripped the legs off of it, and carved into its surface his reply.
"Itz no wunder that you sissy races kant stand up to orcs in battle. Ya' keep yer whelps from beginnin' their trainin' too long. We Orcs know better. As soon as the little runtz are redy to hold a weapon in their grubby hands we toss'em into the pits and let 'em fight it out so we kan make sure only the tuff ones survive to join the army.
"None of this pansy baby fightin' with wooden sticks that don' hurt or cut. How else are they gonna learn not to get beat up? Ya' teach'em that fightin' don' hurt, and they cry and wail when they really do get hurt. Start'em right. So whut if a few get killed early on? Better the weak ones get culled out fast, so ya' don' haf to coddle 'em later."
The orc, satisfied with his effort, and oblivious to the pile of wood shavings now littering the floor, grabbed a spike from his belt and hammered the tabletop into the wall next to the bulletin board so that the patrons of these rings could share in his orcish wisdom.
Date: 28 Jan 1999 14:12:27 EST
Tognakh marched up to the bulletin board and set his heavy-bladed glaive to the side as he hunched down to peer at the numerous pieces of paper tacked to it. He snorted as he read all the foolishness about excluding whelps from dueling in the rings.
Glancing around for something to write on, Tognakh grabbed up a nearby table, ripped the legs off of it, and carved into its surface his reply.
"Itz no wunder that you sissy races kant stand up to orcs in battle. Ya' keep yer whelps from beginnin' their trainin' too long. We Orcs know better. As soon as the little runtz are redy to hold a weapon in their grubby hands we toss'em into the pits and let 'em fight it out so we kan make sure only the tuff ones survive to join the army.
"None of this pansy baby fightin' with wooden sticks that don' hurt or cut. How else are they gonna learn not to get beat up? Ya' teach'em that fightin' don' hurt, and they cry and wail when they really do get hurt. Start'em right. So whut if a few get killed early on? Better the weak ones get culled out fast, so ya' don' haf to coddle 'em later."
The orc, satisfied with his effort, and oblivious to the pile of wood shavings now littering the floor, grabbed a spike from his belt and hammered the tabletop into the wall next to the bulletin board so that the patrons of these rings could share in his orcish wisdom.
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From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 28 Jan 1999 17:52:27 EST
::a veteran of countless battles steps up to the corkboard::::
I don't believe sir, I've ever battled your race.
Though I would suggest that if the orcish armies were to clash with Rome's Imperial Legions, you would find yourselves less than successful.
:::signs his name:::
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"
Date: 28 Jan 1999 17:52:27 EST
::a veteran of countless battles steps up to the corkboard::::
I don't believe sir, I've ever battled your race.
Though I would suggest that if the orcish armies were to clash with Rome's Imperial Legions, you would find yourselves less than successful.
:::signs his name:::
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"
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From: rlupton@aol.com (RLupton)
Date: 28 Jan 1999 23:50:14 EST
Rome fell to idiots. Orcs are really strong idiots. Put my money on the Orcs.
~ Lup
Date: 28 Jan 1999 23:50:14 EST
Rome fell to idiots. Orcs are really strong idiots. Put my money on the Orcs.
~ Lup
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 29 Jan 1999 16:02:01 EST
Hubie takes the bet at five to one odds on the Orcs.
Date: 29 Jan 1999 16:02:01 EST
Hubie takes the bet at five to one odds on the Orcs.
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From: gimmzak@aol.com (Gimmzak)
Date: 29 Jan 1999 18:25:12 EST
I replied to this in private and now I will respond in public. First I will address the Orc Issue.
Being a dwarf, I have fought, and defeated, orcs on many occasions they aren't that tough.
Now, onto the subject at hand.
I think it's wrong to try to ban children from the arena. If we ban the young, we may as well ban the old as well. I mean, who is to say that a dragon that is 900 years old has the best eyesight in the world? He would only be a danger to himself and his oponent.
Sounds pretty silly don't it? I think so. I'm not saying what Jola said is silly. It isn't. She is concerned for the well being of the children and that is awesome. My point here is, if we start with banning children, what is to stop us from banning someone or something else.
Let's not start banning this place from anyone. If you don't feel comfortable dueling a child or someone of lesser age then yourself, then don't, but for Moradin's sake, don't ban the children. They are the future, they will be the ones dueling here when we are long gone. If we ban them now, who is to say they won't resent that forever and stop dueling and lead tp the eventual closing of the Duels forever. Drop a pebble in the river and watch the
ripples.
Just something else to think about.
Gim
Date: 29 Jan 1999 18:25:12 EST
I replied to this in private and now I will respond in public. First I will address the Orc Issue.
Being a dwarf, I have fought, and defeated, orcs on many occasions they aren't that tough.
Now, onto the subject at hand.
I think it's wrong to try to ban children from the arena. If we ban the young, we may as well ban the old as well. I mean, who is to say that a dragon that is 900 years old has the best eyesight in the world? He would only be a danger to himself and his oponent.
Sounds pretty silly don't it? I think so. I'm not saying what Jola said is silly. It isn't. She is concerned for the well being of the children and that is awesome. My point here is, if we start with banning children, what is to stop us from banning someone or something else.
Let's not start banning this place from anyone. If you don't feel comfortable dueling a child or someone of lesser age then yourself, then don't, but for Moradin's sake, don't ban the children. They are the future, they will be the ones dueling here when we are long gone. If we ban them now, who is to say they won't resent that forever and stop dueling and lead tp the eventual closing of the Duels forever. Drop a pebble in the river and watch the
ripples.
Just something else to think about.
Gim
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 29 Jan 1999 19:08:29 EST
Quirks a smile, pens a note.
Baron Gimmzak,
Dinna let Jake Thrash 'ere ye say th' bout Orcs.
Jona.
Chortling softly she wanders away from the cork.
Date: 29 Jan 1999 19:08:29 EST
Quirks a smile, pens a note.
Baron Gimmzak,
Dinna let Jake Thrash 'ere ye say th' bout Orcs.
Jona.
Chortling softly she wanders away from the cork.
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From: gimmzak@aol.com (Gimmzak)
Date: 29 Jan 1999 19:13:13 EST
::tacks up a quick response::
Well,
I never said I *liked* having to kill all those Orcs. It's a dwarf thing
Gim
::grinning as he responds::
Date: 29 Jan 1999 19:13:13 EST
::tacks up a quick response::
Well,
I never said I *liked* having to kill all those Orcs. It's a dwarf thing
Gim
::grinning as he responds::
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From: rlupton@aol.com (RLupton)
Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:07:54 EST
Gimmzak,
The difference between the old of sound mind and children is that the old are capable of mature choices for themselves based on a comprehension of everything involved. Children, usually, cannot.
~Lup
Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:07:54 EST
Gimmzak,
The difference between the old of sound mind and children is that the old are capable of mature choices for themselves based on a comprehension of everything involved. Children, usually, cannot.
~Lup
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From: monkecore@aol.com (Monk Ecore)
Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:15:02 EST
"In the age we live in within these rings it might be wise if the children of duelers were well armed as well as very skilled." ~ Ecore
Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:15:02 EST
"In the age we live in within these rings it might be wise if the children of duelers were well armed as well as very skilled." ~ Ecore
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From: xxlucianxx@aol.com (XxLucianxX)
Date: 29 Jan 1999 21:37:05 EST
Then, shall we ban the mentally incompetent from the rings as well..? Just a question, as everyone's sanity might come under scrutiny in such an instance..
-- Lucian
Date: 29 Jan 1999 21:37:05 EST
Then, shall we ban the mentally incompetent from the rings as well..? Just a question, as everyone's sanity might come under scrutiny in such an instance..
-- Lucian