From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 19 Feb 1999 22:47:11 EST
Jona,
I would like to clarify something. That whole bit about the Challenging Warlord making thier preferences known isn't true. When myself and Tom Evasion challenged Darkness, we were included in the Mailings for the decision process about what to do. Then, Tom and I were removed as it was judged to be solely a Council Decision, that Tom and I had say in the matter. So, it really won't matter what Drake or Var request or say, it's still up to the
Council. Though I would hope the Barons Council is respectful enough to accept both their wishes in this matter.
G'nort Espelande G'neesmacher Dragoon Talanador
Head of House Dragoon Talanador
Thrice Baron of the DoS
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master"
N
As most would expect
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From: maxim128@aol.com (Maxim128)
Date: 20 Feb 1999 00:23:20 EST
::reads Tom's name and silently bows his head for a couple seconds::
Date: 20 Feb 1999 00:23:20 EST
::reads Tom's name and silently bows his head for a couple seconds::
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 20 Feb 1999 02:53:19 EST
G,
I dinna write t'was nae a decision fer the council. I commented that, in past, the warlord made his thoughts and preferences known to the Council. Madame Silvertree, being a current member of said Council wouldna hae anna vote in the matter, naturally, should the question e'en come before the council. Dinna thee apprise the members of the Council your thoughts and preferences? Thee hae nae anna compunction agin answering mine question with regard
to thine feelings in wishing to nae obtain that ring without a duel. Certes, tis the decision ist up to the Council, G. One wouldst hope the Council wouldna act without taking into consideration all matters pertaining to such a decision, neh?
Jona
Date: 20 Feb 1999 02:53:19 EST
G,
I dinna write t'was nae a decision fer the council. I commented that, in past, the warlord made his thoughts and preferences known to the Council. Madame Silvertree, being a current member of said Council wouldna hae anna vote in the matter, naturally, should the question e'en come before the council. Dinna thee apprise the members of the Council your thoughts and preferences? Thee hae nae anna compunction agin answering mine question with regard
to thine feelings in wishing to nae obtain that ring without a duel. Certes, tis the decision ist up to the Council, G. One wouldst hope the Council wouldna act without taking into consideration all matters pertaining to such a decision, neh?
Jona
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 20 Feb 1999 10:46:06 EST
Regarding the question of the Council acting with all the information before them, it would be instructive to note that (I believe) the Council has never been presented with a case where a challenger and a Baron agree on what should be done in the event the Baron is unable to appear.
Should this occur, in this case, it will be rather interesting to see what decision they arrive at, think you not?
Ian Rex.
Date: 20 Feb 1999 10:46:06 EST
Regarding the question of the Council acting with all the information before them, it would be instructive to note that (I believe) the Council has never been presented with a case where a challenger and a Baron agree on what should be done in the event the Baron is unable to appear.
Should this occur, in this case, it will be rather interesting to see what decision they arrive at, think you not?
Ian Rex.
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From: sirbeiver@aol.com (Sir Beiver)
Date: 20 Feb 1999 11:10:23 EST
Again with the petty name calling. Can we just stop? Is that so hard?
Signed,
Sir Beiver,
Church Knight,
General Nice Guy
Date: 20 Feb 1999 11:10:23 EST
Again with the petty name calling. Can we just stop? Is that so hard?
Signed,
Sir Beiver,
Church Knight,
General Nice Guy
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From: alyxz@aol.com (Alyxz)
Date: 20 Feb 1999 17:00:59 EST
>>Again with the petty name calling. Can we just stop? Is that so hard?
Signed,
Sir Beiver,<<
Who's calling names? I'm not calling names. Why are you insinuating that we're always being insulting? Why don't you grow up and get some manners and stop accusing everyone here of wrong doing huh?
Jokingly,
Alyxz
"When in Rome..."
Date: 20 Feb 1999 17:00:59 EST
>>Again with the petty name calling. Can we just stop? Is that so hard?
Signed,
Sir Beiver,<<
Who's calling names? I'm not calling names. Why are you insinuating that we're always being insulting? Why don't you grow up and get some manners and stop accusing everyone here of wrong doing huh?
Jokingly,
Alyxz
"When in Rome..."
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 21 Feb 1999 05:23:06 EST
To the Community.
After extensive research, including talks with many of the personages who had challenged for a Ring and not been met by the Baron of that Ring... either because the Baron failed to respond in a timely manner or the Baron had simply vanished...
None of the persons I had consulted with had been consulted by the Baron's Council as to their opinions or wishes.
While I have not spoken to every challenger, I believe that having consulted with a majority of them, I can firmly state that the Rules of Engagement have been followed to the letter. Neither the Baron, nor the Challenger should be consulted... for, except in rare times, the two will hardly be in full agreement.
Full details of my research are available for the asking.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
Date: 21 Feb 1999 05:23:06 EST
To the Community.
After extensive research, including talks with many of the personages who had challenged for a Ring and not been met by the Baron of that Ring... either because the Baron failed to respond in a timely manner or the Baron had simply vanished...
None of the persons I had consulted with had been consulted by the Baron's Council as to their opinions or wishes.
While I have not spoken to every challenger, I believe that having consulted with a majority of them, I can firmly state that the Rules of Engagement have been followed to the letter. Neither the Baron, nor the Challenger should be consulted... for, except in rare times, the two will hardly be in full agreement.
Full details of my research are available for the asking.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 21 Feb 1999 08:21:18 EST
Madame Silvertree,
I request of thee the "full details" of thine research.
Jonalyn Starfare.
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare
Commoner, Duel of Swords
Regent of Auravia
Co-Chancellor of Starhaven
Queen of Westridge, and the Provinces.
Regent for the heirs to Auravia and Westridge.
Date: 21 Feb 1999 08:21:18 EST
Madame Silvertree,
I request of thee the "full details" of thine research.
Jonalyn Starfare.
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare
Commoner, Duel of Swords
Regent of Auravia
Co-Chancellor of Starhaven
Queen of Westridge, and the Provinces.
Regent for the heirs to Auravia and Westridge.
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From: khrystawlf@aol.com (KhrystaWlf)
Date: 21 Feb 1999 10:39:15 EST
Drake~~~
I, too, would like to have a copy of your research. I may never challenge for title, but I would like to have that little bit of history for future reference should I actually make Warlord and decide to challenge someday....
Thank you....
Khrys
Date: 21 Feb 1999 10:39:15 EST
Drake~~~
I, too, would like to have a copy of your research. I may never challenge for title, but I would like to have that little bit of history for future reference should I actually make Warlord and decide to challenge someday....
Thank you....
Khrys
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 22 Feb 1999 03:05:59 EST
Khrys and Lady Jonalyn.
Having felt the best way to research if someone had been consulted on their opinion was to ask that person, I did so.
I researched the Histories of the Baronial Rings, seeking out every mention of when a Baron failed to answer a challenge.
With said data in hand, I preceded to write letters to the stated challengers... here are the details I have uncovered.
The First Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
The Second Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
The Third Ring. Darkness failed to show on the night of a challenge from Sartan. Sartan and Darkness met a few days later, before the Council had finished their deliberations, and dueled. Said duel was declared invalid. Two persons who were on the Council at the time said to me that they never sought Sartan's opinion on the matter... and indeed it took a tie-breaking vote by the Overlord to decide upon a rematch.
The Fourth Ring. Challenge match defaulted by Shade 9. Lupton, the challenger, told me that the matter was handled by the Supervisor without any consultation, as the Baron's Council did not exist at the time. Lupton also told me that this was the case when Shade 9 defaulted in a match against Phlag... who was unavailable for consultation by myself.
The Fifth Ring. Defaulted by Juan Shanchez Villalobos Ramirez in a challenge by Leto Covington. While he did not make it clear to me whether or not the Baron's Council existed at the time... and given that Zen Rising's default on 8/27/96 is said to be the first Baron's Council, I think it did not. However, he did make it clear that he was not consulted on how the matter should be handled.
The Sixth Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
The Seventh Ring. Challenge defaulted by Dirk Random in a challenge made by the Cleric, Athlstan. Having been granted his permission, I quote him here. "'Twas long ago, milady. Forsooth, I cannot recall if the baron's Council even existed in those days - methinks not. I am certain that I was not asked mine opinion. 'Twas the Coordinator of Duels who rendered decisions then." COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>
The Eighth Ring. Retired by Midnight Blue while under challenge by Elijah, whom I have been unable to consult with. However, given that the Ring was placed in the Warlord's Tourney, I tend to doubt his opinion was asked. Challenge defaulted by Ulath Fici in a challenge made by Raiyko Hideo. After speaking with Raiyko, he made it clear that he was uncertain of the exact details, given how long ago it was, but he was reasonably certain that he was
not asked his opinion.
The Ninth Ring. Challenge defaulted by Zen Rising in a challenge made by Daegarth Mithmellon. I have sent a missive to Lord Daegarth, but I have been told he has not checked his mail since, so I have no information from him. However, given that this was the first time the Baron's Council was ever convened, and that this was the first time a Ring was ever defended by someone who was not the current Baron of that Ring, it is not unreasonable to
state that he was probably not consulted.
The Tenth Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
The Eleventh Ring. Challenge defaulted by Darkness in a pair of challenges made by G'nort Dragoon Talanador and Tom Evasion. G'nort has told me that he was not asked his opinion on the matter, and it was hinted that giving his opinion on how the matter should be handled would be frowned upon. I was unable to locate Tom for his statement... however, from personal knowledge as both men are good friends of mine and were at the time, I clearly recall
a conversation where both men said that, 1) they felt the Council would strip Darkness of the ring, 2) they felt the Council would appoint a Champion to duel for the ring, 3) they would have preferred to duel each other for the right to wear the ring, and 4) they were not going to protest whatever decision the Council made.
Twelfth Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
Thirteenth Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
On a side note, just to check for equalities' sake, I asked Roland Sal Roa if his opinion was sought in the matter where he was challenged for the Twelfth Ring but his opponent failed to show. He told me that he was not asked and did not wish to be asked.
If requested, I will publish the findings of my missives with Daegarth... once I receive them.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
Date: 22 Feb 1999 03:05:59 EST
Khrys and Lady Jonalyn.
Having felt the best way to research if someone had been consulted on their opinion was to ask that person, I did so.
I researched the Histories of the Baronial Rings, seeking out every mention of when a Baron failed to answer a challenge.
With said data in hand, I preceded to write letters to the stated challengers... here are the details I have uncovered.
The First Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
The Second Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
The Third Ring. Darkness failed to show on the night of a challenge from Sartan. Sartan and Darkness met a few days later, before the Council had finished their deliberations, and dueled. Said duel was declared invalid. Two persons who were on the Council at the time said to me that they never sought Sartan's opinion on the matter... and indeed it took a tie-breaking vote by the Overlord to decide upon a rematch.
The Fourth Ring. Challenge match defaulted by Shade 9. Lupton, the challenger, told me that the matter was handled by the Supervisor without any consultation, as the Baron's Council did not exist at the time. Lupton also told me that this was the case when Shade 9 defaulted in a match against Phlag... who was unavailable for consultation by myself.
The Fifth Ring. Defaulted by Juan Shanchez Villalobos Ramirez in a challenge by Leto Covington. While he did not make it clear to me whether or not the Baron's Council existed at the time... and given that Zen Rising's default on 8/27/96 is said to be the first Baron's Council, I think it did not. However, he did make it clear that he was not consulted on how the matter should be handled.
The Sixth Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
The Seventh Ring. Challenge defaulted by Dirk Random in a challenge made by the Cleric, Athlstan. Having been granted his permission, I quote him here. "'Twas long ago, milady. Forsooth, I cannot recall if the baron's Council even existed in those days - methinks not. I am certain that I was not asked mine opinion. 'Twas the Coordinator of Duels who rendered decisions then." COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>
The Eighth Ring. Retired by Midnight Blue while under challenge by Elijah, whom I have been unable to consult with. However, given that the Ring was placed in the Warlord's Tourney, I tend to doubt his opinion was asked. Challenge defaulted by Ulath Fici in a challenge made by Raiyko Hideo. After speaking with Raiyko, he made it clear that he was uncertain of the exact details, given how long ago it was, but he was reasonably certain that he was
not asked his opinion.
The Ninth Ring. Challenge defaulted by Zen Rising in a challenge made by Daegarth Mithmellon. I have sent a missive to Lord Daegarth, but I have been told he has not checked his mail since, so I have no information from him. However, given that this was the first time the Baron's Council was ever convened, and that this was the first time a Ring was ever defended by someone who was not the current Baron of that Ring, it is not unreasonable to
state that he was probably not consulted.
The Tenth Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
The Eleventh Ring. Challenge defaulted by Darkness in a pair of challenges made by G'nort Dragoon Talanador and Tom Evasion. G'nort has told me that he was not asked his opinion on the matter, and it was hinted that giving his opinion on how the matter should be handled would be frowned upon. I was unable to locate Tom for his statement... however, from personal knowledge as both men are good friends of mine and were at the time, I clearly recall
a conversation where both men said that, 1) they felt the Council would strip Darkness of the ring, 2) they felt the Council would appoint a Champion to duel for the ring, 3) they would have preferred to duel each other for the right to wear the ring, and 4) they were not going to protest whatever decision the Council made.
Twelfth Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
Thirteenth Ring. The histories indicate there were no defaulted challenges by the holders of this ring.
On a side note, just to check for equalities' sake, I asked Roland Sal Roa if his opinion was sought in the matter where he was challenged for the Twelfth Ring but his opponent failed to show. He told me that he was not asked and did not wish to be asked.
If requested, I will publish the findings of my missives with Daegarth... once I receive them.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
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From: eagleecore@aol.com (EagleEcore)
Date: 22 Feb 1999 09:50:32 EST
In regards to the Eigth Baron Ring,
When I challenged MidnytBlue, who initially took the ring from me, she accepted the challenge. Within a few days later she suddenly decided to retire the ring claiming health reasons, though later confessed that she was pressured to do it by certain parties. Individuals who did not want to see me regain title convinced her to be the first to retire a ring and/or forfiet one during challenge. A week later she was dueling normally again and
continued to duel normally for some time, regardless of supposed health reasons. I was never consulted or asked what I desired to happen, though I stated my opinion anyway upon these boards.
I lost my peer wins, I lost my right to challenge for the cycle, and the ring remained open for the next Warlord's Tourney, and I never got to step into the ring to resolve the challenge. There was no Baron's Council, but plenty of barons and other duelers voiced their opinions.
This would be the time when I started my trek to the darkside, because I realized this place is full of power tripping cliq type people who love to mess with other peoples lives. And yes, I am still angry about this because it was all wrong from the very begining on how the matter was handled and how I was treated, and showed exactly how people conspire and manipulate people around here to their own ends to ruin other peoples lives.
~Ecore
~A has been who never was but I could still kick all your arses in a duel most of the time.
Date: 22 Feb 1999 09:50:32 EST
In regards to the Eigth Baron Ring,
When I challenged MidnytBlue, who initially took the ring from me, she accepted the challenge. Within a few days later she suddenly decided to retire the ring claiming health reasons, though later confessed that she was pressured to do it by certain parties. Individuals who did not want to see me regain title convinced her to be the first to retire a ring and/or forfiet one during challenge. A week later she was dueling normally again and
continued to duel normally for some time, regardless of supposed health reasons. I was never consulted or asked what I desired to happen, though I stated my opinion anyway upon these boards.
I lost my peer wins, I lost my right to challenge for the cycle, and the ring remained open for the next Warlord's Tourney, and I never got to step into the ring to resolve the challenge. There was no Baron's Council, but plenty of barons and other duelers voiced their opinions.
This would be the time when I started my trek to the darkside, because I realized this place is full of power tripping cliq type people who love to mess with other peoples lives. And yes, I am still angry about this because it was all wrong from the very begining on how the matter was handled and how I was treated, and showed exactly how people conspire and manipulate people around here to their own ends to ruin other peoples lives.
~Ecore
~A has been who never was but I could still kick all your arses in a duel most of the time.
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 22 Feb 1999 14:41:59 EST
Baroness:
I shall fill in many holes here.
The Fifth: I held the Eighth at this time. There was no council. Gloin summarily awarded the title to Lord Covington.
The Seventh: Again, I held the Eighth at this time. Again, there was no council. (In fact, for the record, the Council did not exist until after I had relinquished the Eighth. More on this in a moment.)
The Eighth: Elijah was most likely not consulted, though his opinion was quite publicly expressed. The decision was the diametric opposite of his wishes in the matter, so if he was consulted, his opinion meant nothing. In regard to Lord ni Fici's abandonment to Lord Hideo, I served on that council, and he was not officially consulted. (In that instance, debate revolved primarily around the right of Lord ni Fici's declared second to stand in his
place.)
The Ninth: I seem to recall Lord Mithmellon being slightly perturbed that he was forced to face Baroness Maeax, when this step had never been taken in the past. I think it's safe to say he was not consulted.
Ian Rex.
Date: 22 Feb 1999 14:41:59 EST
Baroness:
I shall fill in many holes here.
The Fifth: I held the Eighth at this time. There was no council. Gloin summarily awarded the title to Lord Covington.
The Seventh: Again, I held the Eighth at this time. Again, there was no council. (In fact, for the record, the Council did not exist until after I had relinquished the Eighth. More on this in a moment.)
The Eighth: Elijah was most likely not consulted, though his opinion was quite publicly expressed. The decision was the diametric opposite of his wishes in the matter, so if he was consulted, his opinion meant nothing. In regard to Lord ni Fici's abandonment to Lord Hideo, I served on that council, and he was not officially consulted. (In that instance, debate revolved primarily around the right of Lord ni Fici's declared second to stand in his
place.)
The Ninth: I seem to recall Lord Mithmellon being slightly perturbed that he was forced to face Baroness Maeax, when this step had never been taken in the past. I think it's safe to say he was not consulted.
Ian Rex.
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 22 Feb 1999 14:54:30 EST
Madame Silvertree
I do thank thee for thine research.
The question wasna whether the Council consulted the challenger or the Barons, the question wast hae they made their thoughts and preferences known unto the Council.
Thee might wish to add to thine notes, that in the matter of the challenge for the Third Ring involving Darkness and Sartan, Darkness hae assumed the Council would decide that he and Sartan would face each other and didst nae inform the official calling that match, the Lady Alais d Nitesong Sidhe that the matter of the challenge wast, at that time, before the Council.
On a side note, the Council of Barons became an official body upon the first day of the tenth month in the year 1996 by the common reckoning of the Duels of Swords.
Jonalyn Starfare.
Date: 22 Feb 1999 14:54:30 EST
Madame Silvertree
I do thank thee for thine research.
The question wasna whether the Council consulted the challenger or the Barons, the question wast hae they made their thoughts and preferences known unto the Council.
Thee might wish to add to thine notes, that in the matter of the challenge for the Third Ring involving Darkness and Sartan, Darkness hae assumed the Council would decide that he and Sartan would face each other and didst nae inform the official calling that match, the Lady Alais d Nitesong Sidhe that the matter of the challenge wast, at that time, before the Council.
On a side note, the Council of Barons became an official body upon the first day of the tenth month in the year 1996 by the common reckoning of the Duels of Swords.
Jonalyn Starfare.
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From: carnage669@aol.com (Carnage669)
Date: 22 Feb 1999 17:24:45 EST
> I was unable to locate Tom for his statement...
Baroness Silvertree,
The reason you were unable to locate Tom Evasion is becuase he is no longer alive in this world as we know it. He passed away about a month ago.
Cletus
House Rising
Humble Warlord of DoS
Date: 22 Feb 1999 17:24:45 EST
> I was unable to locate Tom for his statement...
Baroness Silvertree,
The reason you were unable to locate Tom Evasion is becuase he is no longer alive in this world as we know it. He passed away about a month ago.
Cletus
House Rising
Humble Warlord of DoS
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 23 Feb 1999 00:18:46 EST
Cletus...
I am saddened to hear of Tom Evasion's death, I recall friendly banter with him many a time.
Laird MacKenzie.
I thank you for your insight in this matter. Your knowledge of the histories is impeccible and I am sorry I did not think to consult you directly in the first place.
Ecore.
I thank you for your words... it shows to me that, in fact, the glory days were not quite so glorious as many expect.
Lady Jonalyn.
An unasked for opinion is more likely to provoke the opposite result than intended. Anyone can say what they feel should be done, but the Baron's Council is under no obligation to even listen to that person, much less take their wishes under consideration.
Neither Tom nor G'nort sent letters to the Baron's Council concerning their opinions on how the matter should be settled. Laird MacKenzie will tell me if Raiyko sent a letter to the Baron's Council voicing his opinion, but I have grave doubts that he did. Once Lord Mithmellon returns from his current trip, I am certain I shall be able to secure information on what occured in his challenge.
Please show to the community your own research to state that challenger's have "traditionally" given their opinion to the Baron's Council when the Baron they challenged failed to properly answer that challenge. Even better than that, show to the community where the Baron's Council has wished to hear from the challenger on how to handle such a matter.
In closing.
I respectfully ask all duelists who have served during a time where a Baron's Council was convened to send a missive to me, or place upon this cork, information that would help close this matter.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
Date: 23 Feb 1999 00:18:46 EST
Cletus...
I am saddened to hear of Tom Evasion's death, I recall friendly banter with him many a time.
Laird MacKenzie.
I thank you for your insight in this matter. Your knowledge of the histories is impeccible and I am sorry I did not think to consult you directly in the first place.
Ecore.
I thank you for your words... it shows to me that, in fact, the glory days were not quite so glorious as many expect.
Lady Jonalyn.
An unasked for opinion is more likely to provoke the opposite result than intended. Anyone can say what they feel should be done, but the Baron's Council is under no obligation to even listen to that person, much less take their wishes under consideration.
Neither Tom nor G'nort sent letters to the Baron's Council concerning their opinions on how the matter should be settled. Laird MacKenzie will tell me if Raiyko sent a letter to the Baron's Council voicing his opinion, but I have grave doubts that he did. Once Lord Mithmellon returns from his current trip, I am certain I shall be able to secure information on what occured in his challenge.
Please show to the community your own research to state that challenger's have "traditionally" given their opinion to the Baron's Council when the Baron they challenged failed to properly answer that challenge. Even better than that, show to the community where the Baron's Council has wished to hear from the challenger on how to handle such a matter.
In closing.
I respectfully ask all duelists who have served during a time where a Baron's Council was convened to send a missive to me, or place upon this cork, information that would help close this matter.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.