Formal Acceptance of Demand for Challenge

[DoS Archive]

From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 21:09:30 EST

Repeated again...

From section One (General Rules):

The Warlord's Tournament...
-------------------------------------------------------------
* There will be a grace period of 24 days prior to each Warlord's tournament, during which no challenge may be issued to the Overlord.
<snip>
* The winner has the right to challenge the Overlord directly, superseding any outstanding challenge. This challenge must be made within one week of the Tournament outcome. This challenge is not subject to the "Right of Challenge" and can not be denied for any reason and will follow the "Universal terms of Challenge" with regard to response and dueling date.

From Section Two (Challenge Rules):

"Universal Terms of Challenge"...
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Where not specifically addressed all challenges are first come - first served. With the exception of challenges to Renegade & Neutral Barons (see below), only the first challenge is considered vital and all others are void based on Date/Time stamp of e-mails received by the Standings Keeper and the duelist challenged. This means there are no queues of challenges.

As per the rules underneath Section One, Warlord Tourney, 24 days before the Tourney started, a challenge was made--A prize in the tourney is an intercession free chance to fight the Overlord for his title. The only thing different from any other challenge is that we did not know the name of the challenger until the Warlord Tourney ended.

Now, I gently remind you that I expressed my concern over the fact that there is no legal way for a realigned baron to truly assert his/her right to immediately challenge without disregarding the above-quoted rules. What I suggested was that this issue be resolved so that a realigned baron would not have to resort to "breaking" rules to press the right.

I believe a realigned baron deserves the right to immediate challenge. However, the rules do not explicitly allow that.

That is my argument. Because of how the rules are written, under no circumstances do I believe anyone has the right to step on someone else's challenge rights.

[DoS Archive]

From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 21:17:36 EST

Lady Cornwall:

"As per the rules underneath Section One, Warlord Tourney, 24 days before the Tourney started, a challenge was made--A prize in the tourney is an intercession free chance to fight the Overlord for his title. The only thing different from any other challenge is that we did not know the name of the challenger until the Warlord Tourney ended.FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0">"

You are drawing your own assumption here. In fact, the winner does NOT RECEIVE a "free challenge." They receive the right TO challenge, as evidenced by the fact that someone can decline to offer it.

By your logic, if I go out and earn 15 peer wins this weekend, a challenge has been offered. It has not, and neither has the challenge a tourney-winner earns the right to issue... until such time as they do so.

Ian Rex.

[DoS Archive]

From: zenblack@aol.com (Zen Black)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 21:34:52 EST

Well, Eric said he issued his challenge today.

What does that do to things?

Zen

[DoS Archive]

From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 21:37:01 EST

Ian sir,

I did not say a free challenge in the excerpt you quoted. I said an INTERCESSION free challenge. The word "free" is attached to the word "intercession" not "challenge."

::sending the straw man back::

[DoS Archive]

From: carnage669@aol.com (Carnage669)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 22:08:45 EST


Instead of fighting needlessly over this, why not we all just wait until Golden has ruled on it.






Cletus

House Rising

Humble Warlord of DoS

[DoS Archive]

From: marzan@aol.com (Marzan)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 22:19:18 EST

Sword Brothers and Sisters,

While we await a ruling on who shall be challenging first, I would offer the following:

As I stated, I am offering Lord Uziel an Intercession free Challenge, so that he may defend his slighted Honor.

Should Eric be granted the right to challenge first, and should I win, I offer Lord Uziel the chance to Challenge immediately after the conclusion of Eric's Challenge. (The Same night.) If Lord Uziel is granted the right to Challenge first, and should I win, I offer Eric the chance to Challenge Immediately after the conclusion of Lord Uziel's Challenge.
Both of these challenges would not involve a Test of Worthiness.

If Eric goes first, and wins, then Lord Uziel's Challenge would be irrelevant, as we all know.

If Lord Uziel goes first, and wins, I would challenge him to also offer Eric an immediate, intercession free Challenge upon the conclusion of our duel.


~~~~~Blessings of Twilight~~~~~
Lord Eros DeBurgo
XXIX Overlord of Swords

[DoS Archive]

From: lrdartides@aol.com (LrdArtides)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 23:10:14 EST

::pouts:: Cletus is trying to take -all- the fun out of this.

[DoS Archive]

From: alyxz@aol.com (Alyxz)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 23:10:28 EST

Well hell I've got the Right to challenge. I've just got to face about thirty intercessions first.

The rules allow for two possibilities:

1) The tourney winner may Challenge the current overlord, and if he wins, the Baron gets Jack.

2) The baron challenges the Overlord and if he wins, the tourney winner retains the right to intercession free challenge of the one who is overlord at that time.

Now that everyone's established five thousand excuses for either option, which one will be used?

Personally, I think option two is preferable, in that the tourney winner is meant to challenge the overlord, whereas the Baron is intended to challenge one specific overlord.

It makes all the difference in the world to the Baron who is overlord during his challenge, to the tourney winner it is merely the overlord, and not specifically, the current overlord.

[DoS Archive]

From: rlupton@aol.com (RLupton)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 23:42:22 EST

"Instead of fighting needlessly over this, why not we all just wait until Golden has ruled on it."


Primarily, because Golden reads the boards, and the best arguement will guide his decision.



~ Lupton

[DoS Archive]

From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 23:46:37 EST

Morgan,

No offense, lass, but the 24 day rule doesn't apply here.
It states:

* There will be a grace period of 24 days prior to each Warlord's tournament, during which no challenge may be issued to the Overlord.

The tourney was already in progress as Jeff Oakenshield pointed out and there is no notation on a challenge being issued during a tourney nor is there a waiting period given for how long one must wait after a tournament to issue challenge.

The word immediate seems to be a rule exception. Since a Loyalist Baron is allowed immediate challenge if he is banished to Renegade, that's where the clarfication needs to be made. The challenge is either immediate or it is not, but is seems to be a loophole.

Collie

[DoS Archive]

From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 24 Feb 1999 23:55:10 EST

On da matter of supercedin' challenges...

Loyalist barons realigned ta renegade DO supercede all other outstandin' challenges, even without a clause statin' such in our rulebook.

Please remember da honorable Overlady Alais, when she did realign me fer supportin' her challenger Leto. My right ta challenge superceded Leto's already issued challenge. However, I ended up recindin' me challenge and Leto's was allowed ta procede.

Realigned barons do take precedence, just as WL tourney winners do, perhaps ta da same extent, let us see how Golden rules.


~Jeffrey Oakenshield~
Senior Baron of DoS

[DoS Archive]

From: eagleecore@aol.com (EagleEcore)
Date: 25 Feb 1999 06:10:00 EST

There was once a Warlord Tourney Winner by the name of Jo Kicklen ElbinKnyght, the Guardian of the LyfeStone of Mount Bane, during the reign of the honorable cleric, Athlstan. However, his challenge never came to reality though he was granted the prize to challenge Intercession free.

Directly after the challenge, ElbinKnyght was forced to leave RhyDin, and could not possibly return until a month later. A day after the Swords Coordinator, Devon Goral, ruled the challenge was no longer availible, ElbinKnyght had returned to RhyDin.

So in a way prescedent has been set that a Warlord Tourney prize winner who claims the Intercession Free challenge to the Overlord has up to 30 days to lay claim to the prize of issueing challenge.

My suggestion to the Warlord Tourney winner is simply this. Let the Egos battle it out and come in and clean up the mess afterwards for yourself. In many scenarios I have read thus far, the Warlord Tourney winner of the Intercession free challenge to Overlord might have to fight both of these people for the same title as a result of a matter of honor. Let the political showcase be a warm up to a simple more profound tradition of just shutting up
and dueling.

As an additional thought, I have known a few individuals who have taken claim to the Intercession Free Challenge to the Overlord over any availible Barons rings when given the choice of both.

~Ecore
~Has been that never was.

[DoS Archive]

From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 25 Feb 1999 11:56:09 EST

After the 24 day period, there is an actual person. That person then has one week to make arrangements with the Overlord.

The 24 day period is primarily for taking care of any outstanding challenge that was given prior to the grace period so that there can be no questions about queueing of challenges after a prizeholder is declared.

How many times does the clause have to be quoted before people read it?

"* There will be a grace period of 24 days prior to each Warlord's tournament, during which no challenge may be issued to the Overlord.
<snip>
* The winner has the right to challenge the Overlord directly, superseding any outstanding challenge. This challenge must be made within one week of the Tournament outcome. This challenge is not subject to the "Right of Challenge" and can not be denied for any reason and will follow the "Universal terms of Challenge" with regard to response and dueling date."

The problem here is a conflict of rules. As it stands, I believe the rules are more heavily weighted toward the fact that the tourney winner has more of a right and that there are no queues of challenges (aside from the obvious exceptions of challenges to Renegades and Neutrals) since it is clearly described in detail. The clause regarding realigned barons is less detailed.

If if the argument holds that it's only the 24 days prior that a challenge cannot get made, the fact of the matter is that this part right here takes care of the possibility that there still might be a pending challenge:"The winner has the right to challenge the Overlord directly, superseding any outstanding challenge."

Eric has the right to challenge THE Overlord, not A Overlord, and cannot be denied. The Overlord is Marzan.

Eric does not deserve being put off any more than Uziel does. In my opinion, as the rules are currently written, the tourney prizeholder has more weight behind his cause than a realigned baron does. The realigned baron has one word in his/her favor: immediate. The tourney prize holder has several, many of them referring to other sections of the rules to support their validity. Since there can be no queue of challenges to the Overlord, if Uziel is
granted his right, then Eric is denied his right and the rules clearly say he cannot be denied his right. The rules do not say that in the case of a realigned baron.

Regarding the person who asked why people were "fighting." This is not a fight, this is a discussion and as Lupton pointed out, Golden does listen to what people have to say. People can disagree without hating each other and wanting to go to war. I adore most of the people that have different opinions on this matter, Jeff, Collie, even Ian, the insufferable goat.

[DoS Archive]

From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 25 Feb 1999 15:15:34 EST

Colleen

Tis I opine that the intent of the rules of engagement be that the warlord what earns the right to challenge ast a result of a Warlord's Tourney hast precedence to meet the Overlord superceding any outstanding challenge. I do further opine, that the intent, ast writ, ist that the winner, the First place finisher hast the right to meet the Overlord free of intercession. In the matter of the challenge being free of intercession,
tis the Overlord's choice, should the challenge come from a warlord what wast nae the First Place finisher in the tourney, to choose whether to Test, to offer the Best of Three, or to meet the warlord in single combat.

Morgan,

Lass, I offer thee an hypothetical circumstance. Let us presume, the Overlord retires during the grace period or immediately following a Tourney. The rules of engagement require a Tourney of Barons to seat a New Overlord. The warlord what hast taken the right of challenge from the Warlord's Tourney, wouldst then meet the newly crowned Overlord and nae the retired Overlord, neh?

Ecore, in the matter of Jo Kicklen Elbinknyght, the delay in Devon's announcement of the ruling dinna negate that Jo Kicklen Elbinknyght hae nae presented challenge within the required one week's time. If memory dinna fail, tis that Devon Goral wast Keeper of the Standings nae Swords Coordinator, during the reign of the cleric, Athlstan.


Jona

PS: Ian an insufferable goat? I thought that wast G. Och, nae, G wast oinking, Ian just be an insufferable old fart, but cute, neh?


::flees::

[DoS Archive]

From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 25 Feb 1999 15:17:32 EST

Essentially, Adonai was going to realign himself as he posted, but only chose to challenge. The question that comes to my mind at the moment with this event is that whether or not the lack of notification to the standings keeper makes it an invalid alignment change.
That said, it's a rough situation no matter who you allow to challenge first. Even if it were settled with the toss of a coin, there would be a discrepancy as to which side the coin would be flipped from.
Both sides I think are well put, and of course when the rules were made, events like this weren't thought to happen. This is where we add notes to end any future discrepancies.

I will bring up how one situation was settled. The eleventh ring was forfeited by Rand, when G'nort and Tom challenged and were in a que. Both the duelists had to duel an appointed member from the council to see if either got the ring. Maybe someone from the council could duel Adonai and Eric. Or maybe Eric and Adonai can duel eachother.
Either that, or have Adonai and Eric come to some agreement.

Who do I think should challenge first? Eric. I think Adonai should accept the fact that he did initiate the alignment change by notifying the council. If it is the fact he didn't send the missive to the standings keeper allows the right to challenge, then I still think he should let Eric challenge first because I would like for him to see that it is the right thing. Then again, that's just my opinion.
Simply,

Var Medici-Giovanni

±

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|¯Warlord of Duel of Swords¯|
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