Question

[DoS Archive]

From: eagleecore@aol.com (EagleEcore)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 17:35:06 EDT

I think I and atleast a few other people have post the basic "Challenge 101" rules of the road before with the apprpriate excerps from the DoS Universal Terms of Challenge, along with long standing traditions and pagentry involved.

The rules are there to be observed and to be followed, though I may not agree with all the rules, I still respect them. People talk about making repruccussions if people don't follow the rules, but nothing is ever enforced. Prescedent has been set in this community because the officials and the baron's council are either too lazy or too afraid of conflict to step up to this sort of behavior. Things like challenging wrong before used to get
serious attention, now it's swept up under the rug as "...one of those things that happen..."

Its time for spring cleaning and get the rug shaked out in the yard. Atrocieties and other disregards to basic respect for the way of the duels need to be stopped, made examples of, and due punishments levied for such blunders and disrespects for simply following the rules.

~Ecore

[DoS Archive]

From: sartanz@aol.com (Sartan Z)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 17:35:58 EDT

In regards to Jaycy's invalid challenge:

From what I recall of the situation, and I recall almost, if not all of it, two people were planning on challening Evan, Jaycy and one other person. Both were aware of the other's intent, so sending in the challenge a few hours early did, in fact, make a large difference, because the other person was cheated out of his opportunity to challenge because he waited until the Standings were posted and followed the rules.

Sartan

[DoS Archive]

From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 18:01:07 EDT

>>The only thing that is proven by none having challenged the Baron in question....... is that she has been untested other than by a single match that should not have been allowed to proceed in the first place.<<

Kalamere,

If you read the histories, you will see that Jaycy has been challenged twice. The first time was by Lucian. They dueled. No intercession, no preludes, they dueled. Jaycy won. Solidly. The second was by K'yorl Jarlaxle. This time Dalamar chose to intercede, and K'yorl defeated him. Then Jaycy defeated K'yorl.
Two warlords, both considered competent, have stepped into the ring with Jaycynda. Both have been solidly defeated. No one has challenged since. I agree that there are other reasons that she may not have been challenged since. However, when two challengers have been soundly thrashed by a Baron and no one else challenges, the possibility that her strength is one of the reasons she isn't challenged can be said to exist.
Just sharing information that is necessary to the discussion. Besides, I miss arguing with you. Going to be around while?



Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont

[DoS Archive]

From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 18:01:31 EDT

Either way, that is the number at which a duelist is considered worthy of being called warlord. If one has not achieved, or cannot maintain, that level of skill deemed to be the highest... then s/he does not embody
the strength of the lion.

Kalamere, does a record equate ta strength? Or perhaps could a record be more of da cunning ya speak of. Surely one could fight commoners and abuse fancy manuevers, gaining many WoLs, but would such actions prove strength? Is it not reasonable ta base ones strength off of a match with another of great talent (ie a Baronial challenge match). Placing da excuse of luck aside, is it not logical ta argue besting a baron shows strength? Not ta mention
getting da requirements (peer wins) ta make such a challenge could also be seen as strength.

I suppose I am curious why ya believe Jaycy lacks da "strength of a lion" when indeed she did earn her rank of warlord and best a baron. Records can be manufactured with little effort, so how can records stand as a basis of strength or lack of it?

Another point. Our officials record both wins and losses, our titles however are not based solely on victories, but also on losses (WoLs). So if Jaycynda bests a great warrior (Warlord) in combat, and follows it with a loss ta da same great warrior, she has made no progress. If she bests a great warrior, but loses twice in subsequent battles, she falls a bit in our standings. But if she does not possess strength, how did she best da warrior in da
first place? I reason it takes great strength ta best a great warrior. If ya lose it means yer opponent exhibited greater ability, but does it mean ya are weak...I would say nae. Jaycynda bested a baron, she is among da elite 13 of our sport, she has shown strength ta best a baron, if she loses a few battles ta great warriors does it mean she is weak, Kalamere?

Ever curious,

~J

[DoS Archive]

From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 19:02:31 EDT

Summer

There be nae compacts between lions and men, and wolves and lambs hae nae concord.

If Madame Ashleana be a lion, she be a mangy, flea bitten excuse fer one. If she be a wolf, may the sheep beware, and may the shepherd guard well the flock.

Jona

[DoS Archive]

From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 19:37:53 EDT

Summer, Ally

Quite simply, Madame Ashleana's challenge wast declared illegal by the then Standings Keeper, Master Golden Evermeadow. She then claims her servant didst seek another "opinion". Master Evermeadow's "proper" ruling wast set aside. She herself claims nae anna knowledge of her servants' actions, nor anna responsibility atall. Now, methinks in the hour or more she wast present that afternoon in the basement prior to meeting Evan later that eve,
though she claims her servant had nae anna idea where she might hae got off ta, well aire we expected to believe that she hae nae clue attal that her challenge wast improper? Dost she take the entire community for a bunch of dolts? If that be the case, tis then anna and all canst plead ignorance and press challenge ast long ast they git the "right" opinion.

She wast and is an official of these duels. She or her servant or both blatantly and with total disregard for anyone save herself, didst proceed, securing her ring in a duel that should nae hae taken place. There is nae excuse, none, lest of course, the community ist required to turn a blind eye and stand silently by when those who wear the uniform aire involved in such deceit and dishonorable acts.

Summer, yuir darling Jeffrey, wast more than prepared to relinquish his ring hae he fallen to Huma Dragonbane. A stance of true honor. What standard wouldst thee set for thine bairns, lass? That of a deceitful wench or that of thine bairns' father?

Feadur Feamigil laid his verra life on the line in the rings in aid of his swordsbrother, Bishop. Athlstan gave his life ast didst Prudence O'Shannessy for the honor and protection of these ancient halls and those who set foot in the rings. T'was mine observation that the Bishop ne'er accepted a win when he inadvertantly attempted a manuever which exceeded his skills. Siera of Redwin offered her blade unto her baron, the Lady Midnight Blue when
Elijah Basia Uhr didst task the lady with an insulting challenge. Alkron Goldensword, Billy Ray Karnafexx and Feadur Feamigil dueled for the honor of championing Siera of Redwin against Elijah, who hae agin offered a most insulting challenge unto that Grand Lady. In point of fact, Elijah tasked Siera sorely and most publicly and repeatedly in the basement, night after night, though carefully ne'er in the presence of the Bishop or Feadur. Devion
Silverblade didst lay challenge unto Percival the Chaste for the insult offered unto the lady Kaprielle. The Third now lays upon the hand of Madame Ashleana, by nothing less than a lie.

Jona

[DoS Archive]

From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 20:10:32 EDT

"Those such ast mineself and manna others who hae both the honor and the pleasure of knowing Dalamar ArD'aumon, long afore thee hae e'en lain eyes upon him knew him for the honorable and stalwart man he wast. Were Dalamar ne'er to hae attained the crown, he wouldst ast well hae been the man he was. Strong in adversity, loyal, forthright and upstanding e'en in the face of sadness and discouragement, e'en unto standing
forth for those who didst bear
the brunt of insults, willingly lifting blade with no thought to himself or seeking personal gain."

Jonalyn, I know this, and you know this. However, few bothered to look upon that fact. Also, I am not saying that *being* Overlord, in and of itself, is what made him a great dueler, even to his enemies, but his skill. Were he *not* have ever been Overlord, he would have the same skill.

As to your comment, "long afore thee hae e'en lain eyes upon him knew him for the honorable and stalwart man he wast", I'd rather we didn't get into a contest of who knew him longer and/or better. There is no point to it, really.

~Sidartha

[DoS Archive]

From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 20:12:31 EDT

"Summer

There be nae compacts between lions and men, and wolves and lambs hae nae concord.

If Madame Ashleana be a lion, she be a mangy, flea bitten excuse fer one. If she be a wolf, may the sheep beware, and may the shepherd guard well the flock.

Jona"

::snickers and writes::

Aye, no hate at all. Not one bit.

~Sid

[DoS Archive]

From: foxxgrrl@aol.com (Foxxgrrl)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 20:31:26 EDT

Sartan and Jona,
I thank you both for recounting the events of Jaycy's illegal challenge, though that was not my question. My issue lies more with this comment of Jona's.

>The Third now lays upon the hand of Madame Ashleana, by nothing less than a
>lie.

I'd just like to know why presenting an improper challenge makes Jaycy "weak" and negates the duel for the ring, which she did in fact fight. Other Barons have gained rings through the former Baron's lack of response to the challenge. How is it that they are considered to have "earned" their rings, and Jaycy, who presented her challenge illegally but did duel and win, is thought of by some as little better than a thief?
-Ally

[DoS Archive]

From: rdicollie@aol.com (RDI Collie)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 21:28:12 EDT

Ladies and gentleman,

Again, decorum, please. Stick to the issues, please. No more name calling or notices will be removed.

Thank you,

Colleen Lasher

[DoS Archive]

From: eagleecore@aol.com (EagleEcore)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 22:01:44 EDT

Jona,

I didst as well state my opinions of the lady Siera Redwin when feadur and Bishop were about, and Feadur was well capable of taking me to task for those moments.

~Ecore

[DoS Archive]

From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 15 Apr 1999 22:29:28 EDT

A note.

Someone mentioned, either here or in another line of posts that, in effect, the Officials of the Duel of Swords should have disallowed Baroness Ashleana's challenge to the Overlord.
Amazingly enough, there was a person who decried the decision to allow Baron Uziel's challenge to Lord Eros to go through, based upon these self-same rules.
And yet, there was a person who clearly defended the right of Baron de Oro to challenge Lord Eros, even though the Baron had a lower than 15 WoL at the time.
There was a person who decried the "Test of Worthiness", and then turned around and decried the decision of a Baron to step in for a Warlord who was being tested in his challenge for a ring.

My personal opinion on this challenge remains my own and will be kept to myself, as both challenger and defender are friends of mine.


Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.

[DoS Archive]

From: occurs@aol.com (Occurs)
Date: 16 Apr 1999 00:30:43 EDT

Jona, Billy, and even Sartan,

I nae defending ta Jaycy's actions with respect ta her challenge. For I can nae.

I hae been speaking on ta matter of Wins over Losses is all. And I maintain, that they hae little ta do with being a Baron or even an OverLord, except ta maybe signal ta wolves that mayhaps one be ripe for ta picking.

Ta fact that a Baroness hae fallen ta GM, yet has gone unpicked, is what I want ya all ta ponder.


Summer

[DoS Archive]

From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 16 Apr 1999 01:25:01 EDT

"I'd just like to know why presenting an improper challenge makes Jaycy "weak" and negates the duel for the ring, which she did in fact fight."

What makes the matter distasteful is that the "fight" should never have been allowed to proceed.

I believe the argument here is that the weakness is inherent by sheer virtue of her challenging improperly and not recinding challenge once the illegality was explained to her. Not only did she break the rules to get her way, she cheated someone out of their legal right to challenge simply because he was waiting for the proper time. Weak people break rules to get their way. It is a fact of life that many times, the cheats and cowards actually
succeed.

Now then, it is my opinion that only a weak person would use her title, rather than her record (ability to win consistently), to force her "right" to challenge for the title of Overlord. I found it distasteful when Cristian forced his "right via title" on Marzan. I drew plenty of criticism for my stance and I expect to take plenty for my reasserting my opinion.

If Jaycynda had one shred of decency and regard for this community, she would rescind her challenge, much as she should have when her servant acted too hastily when she challenged Baron Rynth. But we all know she will not do that as time and again she puts her reputation aside to satisify her greed for glory, and this time, ladies and gentlemen, she wants to be your example of upstanding leadership.

Hip hip, huzzah! Gather 'round and rejoice; people of DoS. A new way of life is upon us! Our new phrase the officials shoud say before beginning the duel should be, "Enter, spit, and begin with questionable skill but with plenty of dishonor upon each of us as we cheat the rules at every opportunity!"

I do not know what is worse, the fact that she actually justifies to herself that she is entitled or that she actually has people standing beside her, encouraging her.

Disgusted still,

Morgan

[DoS Archive]

From: sirduel@aol.com (Sir Duel)
Date: 16 Apr 1999 16:00:55 EDT

The servent represented Jayc..Since the servant is proclaimed worthy by Jayc to submit a proper challenge which -she- will carry out, she should not carry out a challenge which wasn't issued properly..If she is going to receive a consequence for positive actions made by her servant, she should be ready and willing to receive a consequence for negative actions made by the servant; hence, no challenge should have been
the consequence.

Coron.