Baron's Tournament.

[DoS Archive]

From: shivblade@aol.com (SHIV BLADE)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 00:16:51 EDT

The way I see it is that as soon as the Crown was vacated, all barons at the time had the chance to "challenge" for it. Thus while not in the rules, it only seems logical that those barons should get the chance to go for it. They were the barons at the time. As for Steve's challenge, it came after the vacated crown. Therefor the first baron had already laid his claim to going for the crown. Why should he be faulted for
wanting the chance for the crown?

Baron of the 12th
Avery Shiv Blade


As written by Christopher

[DoS Archive]

From: carnage669@aol.com (Carnage669)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 01:23:17 EDT

>I do not see the need to keep pieces of mail for longer than perhaps a month,
>if even that long. The archives are full enough as it is.

This does not then justify why I was ignored when I first asked for the so called 'second set' of peer wins. I made this request less than one week after said challenge was issued.


Cletus

[DoS Archive]

From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 01:30:48 EDT

Madame Silvertree

May I point out certain facts to thee, Madame. The challenge issued unto the Baron Magnus Eques by the Warlord Goldie wast upon its initial issuance invalid. T'was invalid the instant it wast presented, nae the instant thee didst deign ta began ta verify it. Therefore, Madame, thee accepted and didst proceed to validate an improperly issued challenge, flouting the rules of engagement ast thee so blithely managed in the matter of the challenge of
the warlord Ecore unto the Baron Daelin Dragonsblade.

Tis seeming thee were requested by Cletus Ganderfald, kinsman of the Baron Magnus Eques, to provide the later added bona fides. Tis seeming those bona fides were nae presented either unto the challenged Baron nor unto his kinsman when they were requested shortly after the initial challenge became known. Now tis thine claim that thee canna produce them. Verra odd, Madame. A challenge validated with a list of 'secret' bona fides, nae presented unto
the challenged Baron?

In the matter of the Baron's Tourney, a few facts for thee and the entire senior staff of officials. Perhaps thee canna e'en read the history, for if thee had, thee would note that the last Overlord to retire wast the gnome, Gnimish Gnimoi. Further thee wouldst notice that between his retirement and the subsequent Baron's Tourney, the warlord Shade 9 didst present challenge unto the Baron Lupton est Dracoern and didst thereby garner the Fourth
Ring. Further, thee wouldst notice that the warlord, Martigan Crow didst present challenge unto the Baron Wicked Deth and didst thereby garner the Second Ring. Thee might also take notice that the new Baron of the Second Ring, Martigan Crow, didst subsequently win the Baron's Tourney to become Overlord.

Since there canna be a queue of challengers for the crown, Madame, the claim that all the Barons aire challenging for it is spurious.T'would seem the senior officials hae chosen to disregard past precedent ast well ast the rules of engagement and hae chosen instead to protect the seated Barons.

Further, Madame, to present a tourney fairly and properly one would expect that all the duels required wouldst be permitted to take place with nae impediment placed upon it. Perhaps the senior officials should give further consideration to the matter.

Jonalyn Starfare

[DoS Archive]

From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 01:38:23 EDT

Baron Avery Shiv Blade

In fact tis covered in the rules of engagement and tis being flouted by the officials. There is nae ta be permitted a challenge queue for the title of Overlord. Therefore in no way can all the Baron's be challenging for the title. I am rather surprised, Baron, that that hast seemingly slipped thine mind ast well ast the minds of the senior officials.

Informatively,
Jonalyn Starfare

[DoS Archive]

From: waikrboh@aol.com (WaIkrBoh)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 02:04:31 EDT

>T'would seem the senior officials hae chosen to disregard past precedent ast
>well ast the rules of engagement and hae chosen instead to protect the seated
>Barons.

And the senior officials have every right to disregard past precedent. Disregarding the rules, however, usually is not part of their job description. The Saving Clause states:

"Any dispute that is not clearly covered under the preceeding rules shall fall under the jurisdiction of the DoS Supervisor to be ratified by the Forum Coordinator."

First, there has to be a dispute. It seems the Standings Keeper thought the challenge to a Baron while a Baron's tournament was planned (but not scheduled) was a problem. She must have also thought it was not clearly covered by the rules. But the fact that the rules basically don't mention anything means that it clearly states that the supposed problem really isn't.

The UTC say:

"And where not specifically addressed all challenges must be answered within one week of validation (by the Date/Time stamp) and dueled within two weeks of the response. Any challenge not responded to within one week, setting a time and place, shall be considered an abdication."

In regards to the Baron's Tournament, the rules have to say:

" Should the Overlord retire a tournament of all Barons will be held to
determine the new Overlord. The impending Baron vacancy is filled by
the winner of the next scheduled Warlord's Tournament."

Nowhere does it say that the Baron's tournament in any way effects any pending challenge, regardless of when it was issued.
Since the Baron's tournament clause does not specifically state anything to contradict the UTC, the UTC should be followed.

Additionally, the rule about not being able to challenge a Baron who is challenging the Overlord also seems to be not present in the challenge rules.

In light of all of that, I really cannot understand the staff's position, other than the thought that Steve was challenging for a spot in the tourney. But if that was the case, wouldn't just challenging for Overlord be easier?

-Walker Boh

[DoS Archive]

From: xstevegx@aol.com (X SteveG X)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 02:36:56 EDT

I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of this. I guess they like trying to argue with the officials, trying to bend the rules how they see them.

I really don't care how long I wait to have the match go through. I've waited long enough to challenge anyway. Just another question to the officials, that I might as well ask now: If Baron Zafiroo wins the tournament, and I rescind my challenge, do I get to keep my Peer Wins? I doubt I could keep the right to challenge this cycle, but that I really could care less about.

-Steven Glowacki

[DoS Archive]

From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 03:00:31 EDT

There is a similar principle to what I am about to say, though at face value it may seem confusing; if you will bear with me.

A while ago, there was a warlord's tourney. In this tourney, there was a huge dispute over Lupton taking part of the tourney, because he became a baron the evening before when he won the ring from Cassius. Lupton had registered for the tourney, and in case he did lose the challenge, he could have dueled in the tourney. The fact he challenged Cassius didn't hinder his registration of the tourney; he just couldn't be in the tourney when he was no
longer a warlord.

This is not an attempt to argue with the call made, it's just a bit of food for thought. Challenges have never affected tournaments before, save for the grace period for the overlord. If Zafiroo wins, then there shouldn't be a problem participating in the tourney. If Steve wins, then, like in the case mentioned above, Zafiroo doesn't meet the requirements to be in the baron's tourney.


Var Medici-Giovanni

Proud Father, Proud Husband

Phantom Scots Captain

Baron of the 10th

[DoS Archive]

From: shivblade@aol.com (SHIV BLADE)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 03:29:11 EDT

Well, to go with Var's point think of this. There is no rule that says Lup shouldn't have been able to duel right? I mean he wasn't a baron yet because the standings said he wasn't. So he should have been able to fight in the tourney. Yet, everyone there argued against it. Why? Because it was wrong. There were no rules for it either way. Nothing that said a new baron couldn't fight in the WL tourney if it wasn't posted.
And nothing saying he could. The same thing is happening here. Yet we have something called common sense folks. Think about it. The barons that were barons at the time of the departed crown should get the first shot at the tourney. There should be no challenges during this time. It just makes sense. No rules support it either way. Just another thought.

Avery Shiv Blade
Baron of the 12th
Diamond


As written by Christopher

[DoS Archive]

From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 03:37:15 EDT

Perhaps we should let Magnus himself decide whether or not the long past matter concerning the challenge against *him* from Goldie should be pursued.

With that said, let's bring the discussion back to the BARON'S TOURNEY, shall we? That is the subject at hand.

~Sidartha Elgarette

[DoS Archive]

From: rdigryphn@aol.com (RDI Gryphn)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 04:09:20 EDT

All right...

Let it be known that I did not make any of the previous decisions regarding the Baron's Tourney. The matter was discussed by the senior staff and the final result was agreed upon by the entire senior staff.

Precedent is not law, and as such may be overruled or overturned.

However, given the general outcry on this, I will tentatively rescind the protection upon the Barons. The final decision resting in the hands of the Supervisor, whom I shall contact swiftly. For those Warlords who still wish to challenge, read the rules carefully, and think before you act.

As for the Warlord Glowacki, I ask that he contact my office as soon as possible.

In closing, I offer this.
Lady Starfare, as you obviously believe that you are more than capable of performing the duties of the Supervisor, the Standing's Keeper and the Rules Lawyer... I invite you to join the staff posthaste. Then, after the minimum required period of employment, take over all three jobs.
I am uncertain as to Master Evermeadow's wishes in this regard, but were I to know that you would be taking these jobs, I would gladly give mine over to you.

My apologies for drifting from the subject for a moment there.


Lady Drake, aka The Gryphon...



Standing's Keeper for the Duel of Swords.

[DoS Archive]

From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 05:13:07 EDT

Drakewyn,

Perhaps you believe Jonalyn does indeed imply she would be a more capable standings keeper, however her post was not written fer such a purpose. Never once has Jonalyn suggested she should take over yer job, she merely makes commentary on your actions. You were not around when Gnimish Gnimoi retired his crown, Jonalyn was. I, too, was not around and found her historical recount quite interesting and pertinent in ruling on da matter of barons
being challenged.

Does it sting you so badly dat Jonalyn's opinion is backed by precidence and you merely rely on "it was a senior staff decision", fer as I see it both are of importance. Long has DoS stood on da shoulders of duelers who fought in its earlier days, many councils have ruled in light of precidence set by others, and I do not forsee dat ever changing. It is no secret Jonalyn and you often stand in opposition, but rather dan take offense at
corrections by Madame Starfare, perhaps you would view it objectively and take such a matter up with Goldendust. I highly doubt Jonalyn would be able ta argue a decision layed down by Golden, he is da law until Jonalyn or another takes his position. Unfortunately fer ya, when you speak fer da "senior staff" yer voice will not be given da credibility or importance Golden's will. While we are all indebted ta ya fer yer hard work and service ta DoS,
you cannot expect a ruling by da standings keeper ta carry da same weight as one by da Supervisor.

While some assume you speak on behalf of Golden, others, much like Jona, might just as easily assume you have made da decision alone and felt so empowered ta institute it. If you truely seek yer service ta better DoS, take corrections such as da ones Jonalyn points out and try and craft a better solution. If it is not yer decision ta make, pass on what Jonalyn has ta say ta Goldendust himself.

Becoming defensive and forcing an ultimatum upon Jonalyn, rather dan using her experience in DoS, helps no one but yerself. While yer grief in dealing with Jonalyn might be allieviated in some manner by lashing out, da community on a whole will not benefit.

I have always respected yer hard work fer DoS, but I also believe Jonalyn has much ta contribute and although she chooses not ta do so in an official manner, she should not be ignored and discarded either.


~J

[DoS Archive]

From: rdigryphn@aol.com (RDI Gryphn)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 05:33:33 EDT

Baron Oakenshield.

Thank you for your comments.

I had thought that my posts were clear enough, but just in case it was not, I will state this in as clear and basic form as possible.

Except for my decision to remove the hold on challenges to the Barons, all decisions in this matter were made collectively by the senior staff.

I have not in the past, nor will I in the future, make policy decisions without consulting with the Supervisor. Anyone who believes otherwise should speak with the Supervisor himself.
If called upon to make an immediate decision without being able to consult the Supervisor, I have always stated that such a decision is tentative only.



Lady Drake, aka The Gryphon...



Standing's Keeper for the Duel of Swords.

[DoS Archive]

From: valmion@aol.com (Valmion)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 09:57:43 EDT

Well said Baron Oakenshield.

Valmion

[DoS Archive]

From: methous45@aol.com (Methous45)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 12:20:40 EDT

Can everybody just leave Drake alone, here bash me awhile, since I have all 10 peer wins now and do plan to challenge.



Meth

[DoS Archive]

From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 18 Jul 1999 13:15:31 EDT

I think it is time for the "senior staff" to come out of hiding and cease allowing Drakewyn to take the heat for decisions the "senior staff" makes.

Golden, you really need to be more of a presence on the boards, especially when questions are asked directly to you.