Marius Challenge: Take 2

[DoS Archive]

From: verceterixfavre@aol.com (Verceterix Favre)
Date: 06 Sep 1999 16:27:50 EDT

Elijah,

Honestly. Either you name names about who on the council is out to get you, you stop insuting all of us, or you challenge whomever you think has such a grudge against you. This ranting is not helping you any.

-Rix
Baron of the Fifth

[DoS Archive]

From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 06 Sep 1999 16:45:07 EDT

"There are some on that worthless piece of crap council who have stated they don't like me and don't want to see me get power. Explain to me when all this stupid BS happens to me and I get screwed over, others are allowed to get away with things. What am I left to think when I have often been treated alot more unfair then others in the same situations."

Then I misread your writings; I felt that you were under the impression we were all out to get you based on the fact we voted for your title to be stripped. If that's not what you meant, then I'll hope you recognize it as much as I do, as a misunderstanding.
But I'm curious, who else is "getting away with this?" You seem so ticked off at the council, yet I have not heard from one member of the council thinking that Marius' challenge is valid.

Golden,
While I am not trying to nag or anything, but I still don't see the justification in why my peers are removed and Marius' aren't. The only justifiable difference, I see, is that my peer wins were valid. I don't see how people who handled the challenge according to the rules should be punished more severely than those who don't follow the rules, at least in this situation. Could things be different in different circumstances, I don't know.
As of now, however, I truly don't see a difference. I'm sorry, but renegade que or not, I don't see the difference.


Var Medici-Giovanni

Proud Father, Proud Husband

Phantom Scots Captain

Baron of the Tenth

Sorcerer of DoM

[DoS Archive]

From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 06 Sep 1999 17:29:38 EDT



I know I'll catch heat for this, and I don't care.


I just want to point out that technically, Morgan is not a patron of the Arena




Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Former Baron of the Sixth
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
The Llama-ask Huma
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"

[DoS Archive]

From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 06 Sep 1999 17:50:22 EDT

I hate when somebody has the balls to ask another for an apology. How irritating is that.

If you're going to ask, it's worth as much as my buck naked arse if anything.

So forth, it shouldn't make you feel too much better for the fact that you had to 'ask' for it. Dispicable.




- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke

[DoS Archive]

From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 06 Sep 1999 19:12:36 EDT



:::Pulls a Lyon and calmly takes away Drey's writing utensils::




Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Former Baron of the Sixth
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
The Llama-ask Huma
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"

[DoS Archive]

From: aspenminds@aol.com (AspenMinds)
Date: 06 Sep 1999 19:38:40 EDT

"Certes th' most blatant 'o Madame Girvin's errors wast 'er acceding t' a request from a servant 'o Madame Ashleana's an' permittin' an illegal challenge t' proceed."

AH HA! It is knowledge the public has... I didn't want to say anything but this challenge is the one I was referring to when I was talking to Drake. I told you I just got names confused....

Aspen

Warlord of the DoS

[DoS Archive]

From: carnage669@aol.com (Carnage669)
Date: 06 Sep 1999 19:53:43 EDT

> I just want to point out that technically, Morgan is not a patron of the
>Arena

Actually Cas, she is. Just because she doesn't duel anymore does not make her any less of a patron. In fact, I saw her in the Arena not more than a few weeks ago.

Oh, and by the way, I have always wondered why your signature is considerably longer than your posts...
Does your hand cramp up sometimes?


Cletus

[DoS Archive]

From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 06 Sep 1999 20:03:58 EDT

Oh, and by the way, I have always wondered why your signature is considerably longer than your posts...


Oh... So it's wrong to be proud of things? A few people have been left in the dark then, no?



- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke

[DoS Archive]

From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 06 Sep 1999 20:25:32 EDT



Folks, in anger I stated a vicious statement concerning Morgana le Fay on this cork. After thinking it over, I wish to apologize.




Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Former Baron of the Sixth
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
The Llama-ask Huma
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"

[DoS Archive]

From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 06 Sep 1999 22:20:44 EDT

>> I just want to point out that technically, Morgan is not a patron of the Arena<

My arse, Cas...anyone who steps through the Arena door is a patron of the Arena.

~Sidartha

[DoS Archive]

From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 07 Sep 1999 08:21:01 EDT

The commoner tacks a note to the cork.

Gaius Marius Colestae,

Unto thee I render an apology in the matter of questioning thine right to issue challenge.
However, sirrah, ast to whomever dost hold the First Ring, I shall nae consider the ring ast being held in the hands of an honorable or worthy personage. Thee sir, are crass, ill mannered, and pitiful excuse for a warlord, though, sadly tis the ranks of warlords seem to be rapidly filling with those of thine ilk. As to the Baron Turidan, the kindest thing to say ist that though he may wield blade with a modicum of adroitness, he hast the wit and
intelligence of a gnat.

Jonalyn Starfare

Baron Turidan,

Thee may hold the First Ring by dint of blade, but thine blind support of Madame Silvertree in this matter speaks more clearly of thine spinelessness ast well as thine less than adequate familiarity with the duels. Tis if anna lack of patience be apparent, tis the lack of patience cause by the continuing arrogance, misformation, attempts to defend the indefensible being done by Madame Silvertree, in her usual self pitying manner. Thou art too new
come to the basement to truly understand the blight that falls upon these ancient halls, and in that, perhaps thee canst be forgiven. For if'n thee dinna know what a glorious tradition and how highly honor and forthrightness wast displayed in past, how couldst thee know how mightily tis now fallen. When one takes upon oneself the duty and responsibility of wearing a uniform and further dost accept the duty and responsibility of a senior official to
this sport, tis it behooves that someone to be perceived ast doing an honest, unbiased and proper job. If'n one hast erred in that duty, tis one wouldst expect that individual to stand forth and correct anna mispronouncements. Madame Silvertree certes hae nae done that until she wast forced by the outcry to pen her reasonings. Perhaps thee hold that the community shouldst operate under a pall of secrecy, Baron?


Madame Silvertree,

Thee believe thou art due an apology? How utterly arrogant of thee, Madame. Thee hae been remiss in thine duties more oft than nae. Tis a shame those what aire so new come t' th' basement believe the mere fact that thee prance about in uniform somehow makes thee above comment, Madame. Ast an official of these ancient halls thee hae stated in this matter that the warlord Marius' bona fides hae been forfeit. Thee stood silently by, ast did Master
Evermeadow, until the matter reached a crescendo. Thee dinna stand forth and admit thine error, Madame. Much ast Madame Ashleana, thou chose to stand silent whilst another wast castigated for thine statement, nor didst thee rectify thine misstatement until now. Thou, Madame, art a blight upon the duels ast well ast a coward.

Thee will nae be held accountable for thine words being copied verbatim by Altara? Indeed, Madame, tis yuir own words aire what thee aire being held accountable fer, nae the fact that they were copied 'pon this stack of missives. A verra simple premise, but perhaps that escapes thee in thine rush to avoid admitting thine error, Madame.

Further, and I address this unto both thee and Master Evermeadow. Prithee, wherefore shouldst official statements and rulings be held privily unto thee and Master Evermeadow and withheld from the community at large? Hae the officials of the duels set themselves above the community and now hold matters that may affect the duelist ast being secret? Prithee, Madame, an interesting premise, one that perhaps would better suit a dictatorship. Perhaps
the community ist so far beneath thee and the officials of the duels that thee feel thee need nae deign to apprise the community? T'was most oft the way under Madame Girvin, and flatly, the demise of honor and forthrightness seemed to rise with her and dost seemingly yet permeate the cavern. Most adroit, Madame, for in secrecy do those who wish to acquire power conspire to keep the public befuddled and ignorant. Thee may wish to narrow thine
comments to "this particular debate on this particular stack of missives", Madame. How convenient to eschew thine previous wrongdoings by dismissing them so cavalierly ast nae pertaining to this matter. Tis an accumulation, a preponderance if thee will, Madame, of missives 'pon this cork wherein thee hae misspoken thineself.

Witness again, Madame thine listing of those thee chose to remove from the official standings. I did notice the removal, finally, of a warlord what hae nae dueled for a full three cycles whilst thee didst remove others what hae dueled within the previous two cycles. This I shall presume wast at thine self proclaimed 'discretion'.

Thee stand silent e'en now, knowing that the warlord Elijah didst in fact tender his official retirement unto thee and the Barons amidst the Council's deliberations, else why wouldst thee hae place notification upon this verra cork that the warlord hae indeed retired?

Tis indeed ast thou hast writ, tis thine duty and responsibility to make rulings on the validity of challenges and to do so in a timely manner. Yet, Madame, thee hae indeed ruled challenges valid, when in fact, they were nae valid. Witness the challenge of the warlord Goldie unto the then Baron Magnus Eques. Madame, how convenient that the documents what wouldst lay the lie unto thine jottings hae somehow 'vanished'. Witness the challenge of the
warlord Elijah against the then Baron Daelin Dragonsblade.

Madame, ast wast said of Madame Girvin, tis this isnae the Duel of Madame Silvertree, nor ist it the Duel of Master Evermeadow. Tis the Duel of Swords. Madame Silvertree, if anna apolgies be due, tis that of the officials unto this community

Elijah,

Thou dost whimper and whine like a whipped cur. Thee in fact tendered thine retirement. Kindly dinna distort the facts or claim thee hae been badly used. Thee well know that once thee tendered thine official retirement for what ever reason thee declaim, that thee were indeed retired and hae the Council deigned to rule in thine favor, the simply act of thine retirement wouldst hae placed that Ring in the coming Warlord's Tourney. Thee would nae
stand and face the Council, but fled in pique. Much ast thee claim thee dinna earn thine first Baron's ring by attempting an unearned maneuver, the witnesses and the history of that eve yet remain to give the lie to thine claim. Tis if annaone ruined thine dueling career, t'was thee, Elijah for no one but thee put quill to parchment; no one but thee sent the missive on its way. Indeed, Elijah, ast thee thineself stated, "Break the rules, pay the
piper". The pipes are skirling, Elijah, and thee hae paid for the music.

Thine insults to the Council of Barons ast a whole be something thee hae repeated. Yet, t'was it nae thee what hae sought a seat upon the self same Council which thee so loudly decry? Tis seeming ast always, Elijah, thee but think of only thineself. That hae nae changed in manna a long year. Rest assured, I for one, do recall the insulting words thee cast unto Siera of Redwin, words that were neatly forced down thine throat, when Billy Ray didst
set thee aside preventing thee from setting foot upon the sands with the grand Siera.

Master Evermeadow,

Tis an interesting premise thee hae set forth as being condoned by Madame Girvin. Per thine own words, a warlord may issue challenge, thereby preventing another from issuing a challenge, then withdraw said challenge with nae penalty. Tis certes then the warlord may do so again and again and again, thereby preventing a challenge to actually go forth, ad infinitum. Yet in the verra same missive, thee hae stated that Madame Girvin hae ruled that
should anna challenge a Renegade, and find themselves in a queue, they shall be penalized by the loss of their bona fides. When then is a challenge defined ast being "met", sir? On the one hand thee be saying that tis nae met if withdrawn and therefore tis nae penalty, and 'pon the other thee are saying tis met when issued even if'n nae blade crosses blade.

Thee hae made interim rulings in the matter of Huma Dragonbane's challenge unto the then Baroness Morgana le Fay ast well ast in the matter of which takes precedence, a baron re-aligned to renegade or the challenge of the winner of the Warlord's Tourney. Both matters thee hae writ shouldst nae considered to be established ast writ in stone until such time ast thee made them official. By thine own missive, thee didst state thee wouldst make official
comment upon the question afore the next tourney. Another Tourney now looms, Master Evermeadow, and nae word from thee upon the questions set forth. Perhaps were the officials of this ancient sport more forthcoming in their adjudications, the entire fiasco wouldst indeed nae hae taken place. Perhaps, the so called bad information may indeed be due to the officials nae making public their involvement and their adjudications to the community. Rest
assured, I shall hae me scribes research past rulings and shall ast well seek to confirm or refute thine statements with regard to the way matter hae been handled for years.

Jonalyn Starfare.

[DoS Archive]

From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 07 Sep 1999 11:26:33 EDT

Ah, I love the *sincere* apologies set forth by our Godbreathed Judge, Jury and Executioner of everyone, including the Supervisor of this Sport.

"I apologize, but you are a dishonorable jerk". Ah, the tact just makes my heart leap with joy.

Good gods, no wonder the Sport has fallen into a pit of idiocy. Even Cassius had more tact, and that frightens me.

Unable to decide whether to be amused or disgusted,
~Sidartha Elgarette

[DoS Archive]

From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 07 Sep 1999 13:09:50 EDT

>I didn't want to say anything but this challenge is the one I was referring
>to when I was talking to Drake. I told you I just got names confused....

Hmmmm. Jaycynda Ashleana, Drakewyn Silvertree. Jaycynda Ashleana, Drakewyn Silvertree. I can see how you made a mistake, Aspen. I can't tell the names apart either. Nor, really, can I tell the ladies apart. They look so much alike.....



Percy

[DoS Archive]

From: aspenminds@aol.com (AspenMinds)
Date: 07 Sep 1999 13:41:22 EDT

When i was talking with my freind we talked abut many things and i got names mixed up with what was going on!

Aspen

Warlord of the DoS

[DoS Archive]

From: morganalefay@aol.com (Morgana le Fay)
Date: 07 Sep 1999 16:25:45 EDT

I wrote, "Also, the Standings Keeper should refrain from mixing her opinion in with her rulings as her authoritative position confuses the issue between what is her opinion and what is her ruling. If it is not her ruling, then she should not mention it."

Golden responded, "One of the duties of the standings keeper is to void invalid challenges and handle the punishments accordingly. That is simply part of Drakewyn's job."

Golden, your response makes no sense in relation to the comments you quoted. How does that relate to the matter of her using her position to expound on her opinions which is what the quoted commentary is expressly about?

I wrote, "This fiasco is the responsibility of two people: you and Golden, no one else and yes, I expect an apology for it."

To which Golden responds, "I don't completely agree with that assessment. I think a big reason for this "fiasco" is the bad information that has been posted by various duelists."

That bad information, in part, came from what Drakewyn herself wrote, acting as Standings Keeper, which was quoted by Altara when Marius challenged again using peer wins that Drakewyn previously said were stripped.

The rest of the bad information comes from unclear positions of supervisors on intepretations of the rules.

"To place all the blame on Drakewyn and myself is a bit extreme, in my opinion."

On the contrary. You and Drakewyn are the last word when it comes to interpretation of the rules, as many of us know who have had the displeasure of being on the shafted end of that ruling. I very much can, and will, place blame upon both of your shoulders for stubbornly making confusing and arbitrary interpretations of a badly written and ambiguous document.

Perhaps if you, as Supervisor, took the time to put it into the rules what the definition of a "met" challenge is, for example, then we would not fall prey so easily to using bad information based on bad interpretation of an ambiguous and poorly written set of rules.

Each time you interpret a clause as having a certain meaning, the rules document should reflect the Supervisor's definition, justification for the interpretation, and when the amendment was made. In this way, there can be no other arguments about the decision, other than on a philosophical level. Why? Because the matter is already clearly defined.

For lack of this common-sense procedure, there is only one group to hold responsible when bad information runs rampant: those that interpret and enforce the rules definitively but do not take the time to officially document the justifications, i.e. you and Drakewyn.