From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 06:16:04 EST
Drey,
Tis quite obvious thee hae failed to present annthing beyond the usual drivel. Tis also apparent that t'would be a waste of good coinage to enroll thee in Nursery School.
Tis also quite apparent that most things fly o'er that head of yuirs. Ye need nae crouch down to hae that happen tis plain.
Ast to finger pointing, Master Starke, though Ah spent mine youth among thieves, scoundrels and others of such ilk, one thine I hae nae acquired wast the rude habit of finger pointing.
Rest assured, Drey, thine invitation wouldst be declined, though I oft ponder what village thee hae left bereft of its fool.
Jonalyn Starfare
Ten Peer Wins Burning a Hole in Your Pocket?
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 06:36:32 EST
"Who are you to deem what is and what is not an insult to the sport?"
Sid, my dear...
I find it troubling that I have said much the same thing about many situations, and have never been called to task for it.
Now, either:
a) When Ian MacKenzie says someone is a disgrace to the sport, well, then, by God, they are; or
b) Everyone knows when Ian MacKenzie says someone is a disgrace to the sport, he's offering his opinion, in which case don't you think the same should apply not only to Jonalyn but to anyone else?
Take your pick. (If the masses somehow, in their finite wisdom, think the first option to be correct, please, by all means, inform young Lord Evermeadow, so that I might lead him blindly around by the nose, and we can all enjoy the Duel of Ian as it was meant to be...)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 06:36:32 EST
"Who are you to deem what is and what is not an insult to the sport?"
Sid, my dear...
I find it troubling that I have said much the same thing about many situations, and have never been called to task for it.
Now, either:
a) When Ian MacKenzie says someone is a disgrace to the sport, well, then, by God, they are; or
b) Everyone knows when Ian MacKenzie says someone is a disgrace to the sport, he's offering his opinion, in which case don't you think the same should apply not only to Jonalyn but to anyone else?
Take your pick. (If the masses somehow, in their finite wisdom, think the first option to be correct, please, by all means, inform young Lord Evermeadow, so that I might lead him blindly around by the nose, and we can all enjoy the Duel of Ian as it was meant to be...)
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From: novagreys@aol.com (Nova GreyS)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 10:04:07 EST
Nova's tongue was sticking out of the side of his mouth as he read Ian's response to Sidartha. It was obvious he was mulling over the multiple choice question. After much debate, he circled "b)" (in red ink, no less), and carried on.
Date: 07 Mar 2000 10:04:07 EST
Nova's tongue was sticking out of the side of his mouth as he read Ian's response to Sidartha. It was obvious he was mulling over the multiple choice question. After much debate, he circled "b)" (in red ink, no less), and carried on.
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From: morganalefay@aol.com (Morgana le Fay)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 10:07:56 EST
>Had she said "I believe that
This is not a required phrase when stating one's opinion. In fact, intelligent people believe that when people make a statement such as "X is a disgrace to this function" that the person is, indeed, stating an opinion. It is unecessary to pepper statements with the words "I believe", "I think", "in my opinion." If it wasn't what you believe, think, or in your opinion, you wouldn't be writing it, would you?
Stating a fact is when you give verifiable, researchable information to support an argument. Such as offering a date for when someone didn't show up and having others corroborate that incident, that is what is known as "stating a fact."
Furthermore, stating a fact doesn't make the the fact correct. It is up to the person disagreeing with the fact giver to disprove the facts offered in order to weaken the fact giver's argument.
This is basic logic and debate, Sidartha.
Date: 07 Mar 2000 10:07:56 EST
>Had she said "I believe that
This is not a required phrase when stating one's opinion. In fact, intelligent people believe that when people make a statement such as "X is a disgrace to this function" that the person is, indeed, stating an opinion. It is unecessary to pepper statements with the words "I believe", "I think", "in my opinion." If it wasn't what you believe, think, or in your opinion, you wouldn't be writing it, would you?
Stating a fact is when you give verifiable, researchable information to support an argument. Such as offering a date for when someone didn't show up and having others corroborate that incident, that is what is known as "stating a fact."
Furthermore, stating a fact doesn't make the the fact correct. It is up to the person disagreeing with the fact giver to disprove the facts offered in order to weaken the fact giver's argument.
This is basic logic and debate, Sidartha.
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 14:47:29 EST
>I find it troubling that I have said much the same thing about many
>situations, and have never been called to task for it.
>
I believe that several people called you to task when you made statements that Gimmzak and Jaycynda might be disgraces to the sport for their actions and intentions regarding one of the challenges that occurred when they were both Renegade Barons. Myself, G, and at least one or two others made answering statements at least as public and as annoying as yours.
I am sure that I called you to task in a least one of them. I am sure someone else did as well.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Captain, Rising Stars
The White Duke
Date: 07 Mar 2000 14:47:29 EST
>I find it troubling that I have said much the same thing about many
>situations, and have never been called to task for it.
>
I believe that several people called you to task when you made statements that Gimmzak and Jaycynda might be disgraces to the sport for their actions and intentions regarding one of the challenges that occurred when they were both Renegade Barons. Myself, G, and at least one or two others made answering statements at least as public and as annoying as yours.
I am sure that I called you to task in a least one of them. I am sure someone else did as well.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Captain, Rising Stars
The White Duke
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 17:10:35 EST
"I believe that several people called you to task when you made statements that Gimmzak and Jaycynda might be disgraces to the sport for their actions and intentions regarding one of the challenges that occurred when they were both Renegade Barons. Myself, G, and at least one or two others made answering statements at least as public and as annoying as
yours."
You believe incorrectly--at least insofar as what I mean by being called to task.
Yes, I was questioned on why I felt the way I did. A couple of people, yourself being one, posted on this cork in a rather polite way to ask, and several people approached me directly.
In other words, Percival, while people disagree with me, with the exception of a couple of folks in the past who have, indeed, been disgraces to this sport, opinion aside, nobody ever says "What right do you have to judge, Ian MacKenzie?" or "Who do you think you are speaking for this sport, Ian MacKenzie?"
And they shouldn't. Frankly, "Who are you to judge?" is a non-answer to the debate (except in one scenario, which I'll explain in a moment). It does not in anyway address one's opinion, but rather attacks the speaker for stating it without regard to the content. In short, it is childish, pointless, and a sign that the objector has little substance with which to argue.
The exception is when the speaker is decrying someone for stating an opinion which their previous actions have shown them not necessarily to be in objection to in the first place; for instance, "Who are you to judge?" would be an acceptable comment if made to, say, a Baron who, having failed to answer a challenge, began smearing another for doing the same thing.
If, indeed, it is the intent to claim that Jonalyn is a disgrace to this sport and therefore is in no position to judge others for the same failure, then please, by all means, get your nerves up and make the claim. Otherwise, she has every right to "judge," just as we all do in general.
Not only do we have the right, we do it daily, every one of us. The only souls who might claim otherwise are those who like everyone without exception, never see anything wrong with anything that happens, and need the drool wiped off their chins because they're obviously lobotomized.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 07 Mar 2000 17:10:35 EST
"I believe that several people called you to task when you made statements that Gimmzak and Jaycynda might be disgraces to the sport for their actions and intentions regarding one of the challenges that occurred when they were both Renegade Barons. Myself, G, and at least one or two others made answering statements at least as public and as annoying as
yours."
You believe incorrectly--at least insofar as what I mean by being called to task.
Yes, I was questioned on why I felt the way I did. A couple of people, yourself being one, posted on this cork in a rather polite way to ask, and several people approached me directly.
In other words, Percival, while people disagree with me, with the exception of a couple of folks in the past who have, indeed, been disgraces to this sport, opinion aside, nobody ever says "What right do you have to judge, Ian MacKenzie?" or "Who do you think you are speaking for this sport, Ian MacKenzie?"
And they shouldn't. Frankly, "Who are you to judge?" is a non-answer to the debate (except in one scenario, which I'll explain in a moment). It does not in anyway address one's opinion, but rather attacks the speaker for stating it without regard to the content. In short, it is childish, pointless, and a sign that the objector has little substance with which to argue.
The exception is when the speaker is decrying someone for stating an opinion which their previous actions have shown them not necessarily to be in objection to in the first place; for instance, "Who are you to judge?" would be an acceptable comment if made to, say, a Baron who, having failed to answer a challenge, began smearing another for doing the same thing.
If, indeed, it is the intent to claim that Jonalyn is a disgrace to this sport and therefore is in no position to judge others for the same failure, then please, by all means, get your nerves up and make the claim. Otherwise, she has every right to "judge," just as we all do in general.
Not only do we have the right, we do it daily, every one of us. The only souls who might claim otherwise are those who like everyone without exception, never see anything wrong with anything that happens, and need the drool wiped off their chins because they're obviously lobotomized.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: sidarthax@aol.com (Sidartha x)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 20:27:49 EST
"I find it troubling that I have said much the same thing about many situations, and have never been called to task for it."
Not one person, Ian? Odd, indeed.
"Now, either:
a) When Ian MacKenzie says someone is a disgrace to the sport, well, then, by God, they are; or
b) Everyone knows when Ian MacKenzie says someone is a disgrace to the sport, he's offering his opinion, in which case don't you think the same should apply not only to Jonalyn but to anyone else?"
I don't know about anyone else, but I was raised to believe that when something is your opinion, you state it as such.
"Take your pick. (If the masses somehow, in their finite wisdom, think the first option to be correct, please, by all means, inform young Lord Evermeadow, so that I might lead him blindly around by the nose, and we can all enjoy the Duel of Ian as it was meant to be...)"
You frighten me, love.
~Sid
Date: 07 Mar 2000 20:27:49 EST
"I find it troubling that I have said much the same thing about many situations, and have never been called to task for it."
Not one person, Ian? Odd, indeed.
"Now, either:
a) When Ian MacKenzie says someone is a disgrace to the sport, well, then, by God, they are; or
b) Everyone knows when Ian MacKenzie says someone is a disgrace to the sport, he's offering his opinion, in which case don't you think the same should apply not only to Jonalyn but to anyone else?"
I don't know about anyone else, but I was raised to believe that when something is your opinion, you state it as such.
"Take your pick. (If the masses somehow, in their finite wisdom, think the first option to be correct, please, by all means, inform young Lord Evermeadow, so that I might lead him blindly around by the nose, and we can all enjoy the Duel of Ian as it was meant to be...)"
You frighten me, love.
~Sid
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From: sidarthax@aol.com (Sidartha x)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 20:38:11 EST
"Furthermore, stating a fact doesn't make the the fact correct."
I can see your point in the beginning of your post, though I disagree, I'd like you to explain this sentance.
Does not the word "fact" denote something that is correct? A fact is a piece of information presented as having objective reality. How can a fact be incorrect?
~Sidartha Elgarette
Date: 07 Mar 2000 20:38:11 EST
"Furthermore, stating a fact doesn't make the the fact correct."
I can see your point in the beginning of your post, though I disagree, I'd like you to explain this sentance.
Does not the word "fact" denote something that is correct? A fact is a piece of information presented as having objective reality. How can a fact be incorrect?
~Sidartha Elgarette
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From: jeffoakenshield@aol.com (Jeff Oakenshield)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 21:51:18 EST
Sidartha,
You claim when one gives an opinion, it must be stated as such. You also claim every opinion must be accompanied by a disclaimer such as "I believe".
Some statements are obviously opinions, without such a disclaimer, because da speaker has no way of providing objective proof fer his statment.
Example:
"Occurs Summer Rose is da most beautiful woman in Rhydin."
Certainly, I would hope, you do not need an "I believe" ta ascertain my statement is an opinion not a proven fact. Ian was trying ta get ya ta see da exact same point. His example, were it reality, might frighten you. But it is a valid example fer our argument, please don't downplay it.
~J
Date: 07 Mar 2000 21:51:18 EST
Sidartha,
You claim when one gives an opinion, it must be stated as such. You also claim every opinion must be accompanied by a disclaimer such as "I believe".
Some statements are obviously opinions, without such a disclaimer, because da speaker has no way of providing objective proof fer his statment.
Example:
"Occurs Summer Rose is da most beautiful woman in Rhydin."
Certainly, I would hope, you do not need an "I believe" ta ascertain my statement is an opinion not a proven fact. Ian was trying ta get ya ta see da exact same point. His example, were it reality, might frighten you. But it is a valid example fer our argument, please don't downplay it.
~J
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From: morganalefay@aol.com (Morgana le Fay)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 22:27:35 EST
A fact is not something that is unarguably true to the ends of time. A fact is something that thus far by conventional means has not been proven to be untrue. Even the most confident of scientists admit that their "facts" are simply strong theories and hypotheses that so far hold up to testing and study.
Another type of fact that might be incorrect is a figure that was taken out of context, misrepresented, or manipulated. This is the most obvious type of "untrue" fact.
There are statements of fact and statements of opinion. Neither requires the stater to qualify which type of statement s/he is making. The critical reader can be expected to know the difference. Again, this is basic logic and critical thinking and does not require your agreement to be the standard.
Date: 07 Mar 2000 22:27:35 EST
A fact is not something that is unarguably true to the ends of time. A fact is something that thus far by conventional means has not been proven to be untrue. Even the most confident of scientists admit that their "facts" are simply strong theories and hypotheses that so far hold up to testing and study.
Another type of fact that might be incorrect is a figure that was taken out of context, misrepresented, or manipulated. This is the most obvious type of "untrue" fact.
There are statements of fact and statements of opinion. Neither requires the stater to qualify which type of statement s/he is making. The critical reader can be expected to know the difference. Again, this is basic logic and critical thinking and does not require your agreement to be the standard.
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From: sidarthax@aol.com (Sidartha x)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 23:22:53 EST
"Ian was trying ta get ya ta see da exact same point. His example, were it reality, might frighten you. But it is a valid example fer our argument, please don't downplay it."
That wasn't my intent, Jeffrey.
~Sidartha Elgarette
Date: 07 Mar 2000 23:22:53 EST
"Ian was trying ta get ya ta see da exact same point. His example, were it reality, might frighten you. But it is a valid example fer our argument, please don't downplay it."
That wasn't my intent, Jeffrey.
~Sidartha Elgarette
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From: jeffoakenshield@aol.com (Jeff Oakenshield)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 23:37:00 EST
::sighs reading the trite reply::
Sidartha,
Once again, when challenged, you make some pointless, petty reply rather dan one which addresses da challenge against you. We have now provided you both with a more appropriate definition of "fact" as well as situations when "I believe" is not necessary ta make a statement of opinion. I will assume yer lack of a counter argument is a concession on yer part admitting yer fallacy in logic.
~J
Date: 07 Mar 2000 23:37:00 EST
::sighs reading the trite reply::
Sidartha,
Once again, when challenged, you make some pointless, petty reply rather dan one which addresses da challenge against you. We have now provided you both with a more appropriate definition of "fact" as well as situations when "I believe" is not necessary ta make a statement of opinion. I will assume yer lack of a counter argument is a concession on yer part admitting yer fallacy in logic.
~J
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From: sidarthax@aol.com (Sidartha x)
Date: 07 Mar 2000 23:38:18 EST
"A fact is not something that is unarguably true to the ends of time."
I never said a fact was true until the end of time. However, a fact *IS* true here and now.
"Another type of fact that might be incorrect is a figure that was taken out of context, misrepresented, or manipulated. This is the most obvious type of "untrue" fact."
That wouldn't be a fact. That would be a misconception.
"There are statements of fact and statements of opinion. Neither requires the stater to qualify which type of statement s/he is making. The critical reader can be expected to know the difference."
I hate this line, but it applies. We'll have to agree to disagree. Personally, I think it's a matter of common courtesy.
"Again, this is basic logic and critical thinking and does not require your agreement to be the standard."
Actually, wouldn't logic state that if you write something, you write it the way it is meant?
~Sidartha Elgarette
Date: 07 Mar 2000 23:38:18 EST
"A fact is not something that is unarguably true to the ends of time."
I never said a fact was true until the end of time. However, a fact *IS* true here and now.
"Another type of fact that might be incorrect is a figure that was taken out of context, misrepresented, or manipulated. This is the most obvious type of "untrue" fact."
That wouldn't be a fact. That would be a misconception.
"There are statements of fact and statements of opinion. Neither requires the stater to qualify which type of statement s/he is making. The critical reader can be expected to know the difference."
I hate this line, but it applies. We'll have to agree to disagree. Personally, I think it's a matter of common courtesy.
"Again, this is basic logic and critical thinking and does not require your agreement to be the standard."
Actually, wouldn't logic state that if you write something, you write it the way it is meant?
~Sidartha Elgarette
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From: zamhulem@aol.com (Zamhulem)
Date: 08 Mar 2000 08:48:27 EST
" Furthermore, I'd challenge Zam anyway. I wouldn't give two shakes of a monkey's tail who he was. Just because I'd like the Seventh to be elsewhere right about now."
Thanks Dae ::with a big smily face drawn in for laughs::
Zamhulem protector of the meek and weilder of SoulBinder
Date: 08 Mar 2000 08:48:27 EST
" Furthermore, I'd challenge Zam anyway. I wouldn't give two shakes of a monkey's tail who he was. Just because I'd like the Seventh to be elsewhere right about now."
Thanks Dae ::with a big smily face drawn in for laughs::
Zamhulem protector of the meek and weilder of SoulBinder
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From: morganalefay@aol.com (Morgana le Fay)
Date: 08 Mar 2000 10:27:15 EST
"Actually, wouldn't logic state that if you write something, you write it the way it is meant?"
It is being written the way it is meant. Use a little bit if intellectual inference and intuition. It is silly to expect a writer to use unneccessary words, which leads to bonenumbing content just so you can be lazy and not figure it out for yourself. Sidartha, I know you aren't stupid, quit acting like it.
>However, a fact *IS* true here and now.
I think you are missing a key point. A fact is NOT something that is true. A fact is something that has yet to be proven untrue. I could state something as a fact, say that my hair is black, and until someone can prove that statement untrue, it remains an undeniable fact.
>That wouldn't be a fact. That would be a misconception.
mmm, no. A misconception is what occurs to the receiver of the information, not the relayer of the information. My facts would not be suspect because the receiver misconcieves the intentions. My facts would be suspect if they could not be verified or they broke down under scrutiny.
Simply put, if you misunderstand the information before you and are operating under a misconception, it does not affect the factualness of the claim.
>I hate this line, but it applies. We'll have to agree to disagree.
>Personally, I think it's a matter of common courtesy.
>
Sidartha, tell me which sentence is a statement of fact and a statement of opinion (assume you can verify that Morgan's hair is indeed to her shoulders).
1. Morgan's hair is shoulder-length.
2. Morgan's hair is beautiful.
3. In my opinion, Morgan's hair is beautiful.
4. As a matter of fact, Morgan's hair is beautiful.
5. The fact is, Morgan's hair is beautiful.
6. In my opinion, Morgan's hair is shoulder-length.
7. Morgan's hair is chin-length.
Date: 08 Mar 2000 10:27:15 EST
"Actually, wouldn't logic state that if you write something, you write it the way it is meant?"
It is being written the way it is meant. Use a little bit if intellectual inference and intuition. It is silly to expect a writer to use unneccessary words, which leads to bonenumbing content just so you can be lazy and not figure it out for yourself. Sidartha, I know you aren't stupid, quit acting like it.
>However, a fact *IS* true here and now.
I think you are missing a key point. A fact is NOT something that is true. A fact is something that has yet to be proven untrue. I could state something as a fact, say that my hair is black, and until someone can prove that statement untrue, it remains an undeniable fact.
>That wouldn't be a fact. That would be a misconception.
mmm, no. A misconception is what occurs to the receiver of the information, not the relayer of the information. My facts would not be suspect because the receiver misconcieves the intentions. My facts would be suspect if they could not be verified or they broke down under scrutiny.
Simply put, if you misunderstand the information before you and are operating under a misconception, it does not affect the factualness of the claim.
>I hate this line, but it applies. We'll have to agree to disagree.
>Personally, I think it's a matter of common courtesy.
>
Sidartha, tell me which sentence is a statement of fact and a statement of opinion (assume you can verify that Morgan's hair is indeed to her shoulders).
1. Morgan's hair is shoulder-length.
2. Morgan's hair is beautiful.
3. In my opinion, Morgan's hair is beautiful.
4. As a matter of fact, Morgan's hair is beautiful.
5. The fact is, Morgan's hair is beautiful.
6. In my opinion, Morgan's hair is shoulder-length.
7. Morgan's hair is chin-length.