From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 08:43:41 EDT
"Without trying to question Deluthan's honor or integrity, what has changed?"
People DO grow up, Percival.
Of course, the hordes of individuals here who never, ever let go of what someone might have done ages ago might put the lie to that assertion in the eyes of reasonable people.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Challenge Results! New Baron Of The First!
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From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 16:32:54 EDT
>People DO grow up, Percival.
Observing Deluthan's behavior, I have yet to see it.
>Of course, the hordes of individuals here who never, ever let go of what
>someone might have done ages ago
I'll assume you're talking about Jonalyn here.
>
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Baron of the 12th
Date: 23 Apr 2000 16:32:54 EDT
>People DO grow up, Percival.
Observing Deluthan's behavior, I have yet to see it.
>Of course, the hordes of individuals here who never, ever let go of what
>someone might have done ages ago
I'll assume you're talking about Jonalyn here.
>
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Baron of the 12th
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 17:36:38 EDT
"I'll assume you're talking about Jonalyn here."
Cassius... while I won't argue the point, insofar as the one major difference Jonalyn and I have with one another is that she doesn't forgive, and I forgive entirely too often, it's highly irrelevant.
I used the phrase "hordes of individuals." Perhaps Romans have trouble with the language, I don't know. Or are you so afraid of Jonalyn's magic quill that she qualifies as "hordes"?
Really, the effort some of you put into arguing with her amuses me. It's not as if she holds a title and therefore has a duty to represent the community. It's not as if she's in a position of authority. It's not as if she rules over your lives with the threat of violence against your persons.
Maybe the pen is mightier than the sword, after all, if she can get to you all so much just by writing and speaking...
At any rate, Cassius, in the future, kindly refrain from using my comments as your launching pad for direct assaults on individuals who aren't involved in the discussion. My direct point to Percival was that people change; the point I didn't make, and hoped would be grasped, was that as long as you expect people to be no different, and treat them as if they're no different, they have no incentive to change, either.
I, for one, am offended by the very concept of continuing to slam people for past grievances years into the future, unless the crime is so heinous that it CANNOT be forgotten, and the punishment for that crime has been avoided. Except to the extent that it is part of a pattern, for instance, I don't care that Drakewyn made a mistake a year ago; I disagree with pointing at it and harping on her about That Mistake now, as it's over and done with.
(And this should be instructive to those who might think I've simply joined the Beat Drakewyn Up committee; my objections are not to the mistakes, but to the method of dealing WITH the mistakes, and the unchanging aspect of that method.)
Were I to follow Percival's concept, Jeffrey Oakenshield and I would be bitter enemies still. Dalamar Ar'Daumon would never have had my support as Overlord. Billy Ray and I would probably both be dead in an alley, him from massive brain hemmoraging and me from massive blunt trauma. And Sidartha and I would still be sniping at each other in public nightly.
Perhaps now, Cassius, you see my point, and understand how truly petty your response was.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 23 Apr 2000 17:36:38 EDT
"I'll assume you're talking about Jonalyn here."
Cassius... while I won't argue the point, insofar as the one major difference Jonalyn and I have with one another is that she doesn't forgive, and I forgive entirely too often, it's highly irrelevant.
I used the phrase "hordes of individuals." Perhaps Romans have trouble with the language, I don't know. Or are you so afraid of Jonalyn's magic quill that she qualifies as "hordes"?
Really, the effort some of you put into arguing with her amuses me. It's not as if she holds a title and therefore has a duty to represent the community. It's not as if she's in a position of authority. It's not as if she rules over your lives with the threat of violence against your persons.
Maybe the pen is mightier than the sword, after all, if she can get to you all so much just by writing and speaking...
At any rate, Cassius, in the future, kindly refrain from using my comments as your launching pad for direct assaults on individuals who aren't involved in the discussion. My direct point to Percival was that people change; the point I didn't make, and hoped would be grasped, was that as long as you expect people to be no different, and treat them as if they're no different, they have no incentive to change, either.
I, for one, am offended by the very concept of continuing to slam people for past grievances years into the future, unless the crime is so heinous that it CANNOT be forgotten, and the punishment for that crime has been avoided. Except to the extent that it is part of a pattern, for instance, I don't care that Drakewyn made a mistake a year ago; I disagree with pointing at it and harping on her about That Mistake now, as it's over and done with.
(And this should be instructive to those who might think I've simply joined the Beat Drakewyn Up committee; my objections are not to the mistakes, but to the method of dealing WITH the mistakes, and the unchanging aspect of that method.)
Were I to follow Percival's concept, Jeffrey Oakenshield and I would be bitter enemies still. Dalamar Ar'Daumon would never have had my support as Overlord. Billy Ray and I would probably both be dead in an alley, him from massive brain hemmoraging and me from massive blunt trauma. And Sidartha and I would still be sniping at each other in public nightly.
Perhaps now, Cassius, you see my point, and understand how truly petty your response was.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: deluthan@aol.com (Deluthan)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 17:48:32 EDT
>>People DO grow up, Percival.
>
>Observing Deluthan's behavior, I have yet to see it.
Where do you get off, Cassius? With the number of your apologies on this cork, I would think you were still learning what maturity is.
Deluthan
Date: 23 Apr 2000 17:48:32 EDT
>>People DO grow up, Percival.
>
>Observing Deluthan's behavior, I have yet to see it.
Where do you get off, Cassius? With the number of your apologies on this cork, I would think you were still learning what maturity is.
Deluthan
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From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 17:54:09 EDT
Ian, I do see your point, and I humbly apologize. It was my admittedly hastily assumed conclusion that you were in support of never letting crimes of the past die. I see how wrong I was. An example of my own would be the recent improvement in the relationship between myself and Cletus Ganderfald. If a person shows reform, has been punished for their transgressions, and has attempted to mend bridges, I am more than willing to forgive them. I am even
willing to extend the olive branch myself, as I once attempted several times with Lupton before seeing that it was a lost cause. My problem comes with those who have never expressed remorse or change, such as Elijah or Methous. Of course, never once did you state that individuals like these should be forgiven, and I believe that you concur with me that they should not.
The only disagreement I have with you on this matter is that I include Deluthan Ev'rt in the latter category, though certainly not to the same extent.
As for the Jonalyn comment, please excuse my assumption.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Baron of the 12th
Date: 23 Apr 2000 17:54:09 EDT
Ian, I do see your point, and I humbly apologize. It was my admittedly hastily assumed conclusion that you were in support of never letting crimes of the past die. I see how wrong I was. An example of my own would be the recent improvement in the relationship between myself and Cletus Ganderfald. If a person shows reform, has been punished for their transgressions, and has attempted to mend bridges, I am more than willing to forgive them. I am even
willing to extend the olive branch myself, as I once attempted several times with Lupton before seeing that it was a lost cause. My problem comes with those who have never expressed remorse or change, such as Elijah or Methous. Of course, never once did you state that individuals like these should be forgiven, and I believe that you concur with me that they should not.
The only disagreement I have with you on this matter is that I include Deluthan Ev'rt in the latter category, though certainly not to the same extent.
As for the Jonalyn comment, please excuse my assumption.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 17:57:30 EDT
"It was my admittedly hastily assumed conclusion that you were in support of never letting crimes of the past die."
Well. Despite my complete inability to even guess at where you might have derived this assumption... I'll accept the apology.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 23 Apr 2000 17:57:30 EDT
"It was my admittedly hastily assumed conclusion that you were in support of never letting crimes of the past die."
Well. Despite my complete inability to even guess at where you might have derived this assumption... I'll accept the apology.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 18:11:21 EDT
>Where do you get off, Cassius? With the number of your apologies on this
>cork, I would think you were still learning what maturity is.
Deluthan, to recongize one's mistakes and offer apology if the pinnacle of maturity.
As for what I have yet to see....my opinion, Baron, is that you carry with you the belief that you are owed everything. This was the attitude that shined through a year ago, on the issue of your situation with Lucian.
I actually *had* thought you changed. But the challenge with Zafiroo, when you automatically assumed that Avery had judged you not worthy of a Barony, despite his comments to the contrary, showed to me that at least a sliver of it remained.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Baron of the 12th
Date: 23 Apr 2000 18:11:21 EDT
>Where do you get off, Cassius? With the number of your apologies on this
>cork, I would think you were still learning what maturity is.
Deluthan, to recongize one's mistakes and offer apology if the pinnacle of maturity.
As for what I have yet to see....my opinion, Baron, is that you carry with you the belief that you are owed everything. This was the attitude that shined through a year ago, on the issue of your situation with Lucian.
I actually *had* thought you changed. But the challenge with Zafiroo, when you automatically assumed that Avery had judged you not worthy of a Barony, despite his comments to the contrary, showed to me that at least a sliver of it remained.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
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From: deluthan@aol.com (Deluthan)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 18:56:12 EDT
>I actually *had* thought you changed. But the challenge with Zafiroo, when
>you automatically assumed that Avery had judged you not worthy of a Barony,
>despite his comments to the contrary, showed to me that at least a sliver of
>it remained.
Cassius, if you'll read back to an earlier post, in which I thanked people for their support, you will find my apology to the Overlord for stating that false assumption out loud. I blame my poor listening skills at the height of excitement for not hearing the Overlord's comments that evening.
As for your opinion that I believe I am owed everything, it is simply that, an opinion. You don't know me. You don't know what I have been through the past year and a half. You don't know what makes a person with my history tick, because all you have to go on is your own. Perhaps, with the maelstrom of a mind which I had in the past, I once felt I was owed something by others, but the only person that I feel owes me anything now is myself.
Deluthan
Date: 23 Apr 2000 18:56:12 EDT
>I actually *had* thought you changed. But the challenge with Zafiroo, when
>you automatically assumed that Avery had judged you not worthy of a Barony,
>despite his comments to the contrary, showed to me that at least a sliver of
>it remained.
Cassius, if you'll read back to an earlier post, in which I thanked people for their support, you will find my apology to the Overlord for stating that false assumption out loud. I blame my poor listening skills at the height of excitement for not hearing the Overlord's comments that evening.
As for your opinion that I believe I am owed everything, it is simply that, an opinion. You don't know me. You don't know what I have been through the past year and a half. You don't know what makes a person with my history tick, because all you have to go on is your own. Perhaps, with the maelstrom of a mind which I had in the past, I once felt I was owed something by others, but the only person that I feel owes me anything now is myself.
Deluthan
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 19:54:29 EDT
It's beyond me where Del showed that he feels he was owed everything. Maybe I'm just blind, deaf, and ignorant.
I remember that Deluthan had showed a desire for the ring when he challenged Lucian. Near the end, it didn't matter as long as he got to fight for the ring. Wouldn't Del have said, "Boo hoo, the world is so unfair to me, just give me the ring." if he had truly felt everything was owed to him?
Maybe my memory is failing, maybe he didn't say "as long as I get to fight for the ring." I just remember him not feeling we "owed" him anything, at least I didn't get that feeling.
In either case... Wear the ring well, Deluthan. Zafiroo, it was an impressive reign, and I hope you remember you have done what only a few titleholders before you have done.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Date: 23 Apr 2000 19:54:29 EDT
It's beyond me where Del showed that he feels he was owed everything. Maybe I'm just blind, deaf, and ignorant.
I remember that Deluthan had showed a desire for the ring when he challenged Lucian. Near the end, it didn't matter as long as he got to fight for the ring. Wouldn't Del have said, "Boo hoo, the world is so unfair to me, just give me the ring." if he had truly felt everything was owed to him?
Maybe my memory is failing, maybe he didn't say "as long as I get to fight for the ring." I just remember him not feeling we "owed" him anything, at least I didn't get that feeling.
In either case... Wear the ring well, Deluthan. Zafiroo, it was an impressive reign, and I hope you remember you have done what only a few titleholders before you have done.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 19:55:27 EDT
Observing Deluthan's behavior, I have yet to see it.
Then you're blind, Cas. Of all people, I wouldn't expect you to see anything.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>Starke
Date: 23 Apr 2000 19:55:27 EDT
Observing Deluthan's behavior, I have yet to see it.
Then you're blind, Cas. Of all people, I wouldn't expect you to see anything.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>Starke
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From: rlupton@aol.com (RLupton)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 21:12:41 EDT
I believe Deluthan to be a model Baron.
As a side note, in reference to Cassius, there will never be a resolution between us. His comments to me were far too heinous and his apology too insincere.
~ Lupton
Date: 23 Apr 2000 21:12:41 EDT
I believe Deluthan to be a model Baron.
As a side note, in reference to Cassius, there will never be a resolution between us. His comments to me were far too heinous and his apology too insincere.
~ Lupton
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From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 23 Apr 2000 22:17:41 EDT
Deluthan, thank you. Instead of indignantly lashing at me, you explained your viewpoint, and gave an explanation for your actions of the past, as well as pointing me out to a missive I missed....all of that being fairly impressive,and doing much to change my opinion. Your explanation made sense. I accept people can change, and I do hope your words are true, baron.
Lupton, I explained that most ancient situation to you a hundred times, and each time it fell on deaf ears. I no longer really care what you think of me. I don't believe he's a model Baron *yet*...but that could easily change...again, the Baron's response impressed me with it's calmness and lack of insult. I definitely must say my opinion of him has improved.
Drey, you'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't care for what you expect of me.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Baron of the 12th
Date: 23 Apr 2000 22:17:41 EDT
Deluthan, thank you. Instead of indignantly lashing at me, you explained your viewpoint, and gave an explanation for your actions of the past, as well as pointing me out to a missive I missed....all of that being fairly impressive,and doing much to change my opinion. Your explanation made sense. I accept people can change, and I do hope your words are true, baron.
Lupton, I explained that most ancient situation to you a hundred times, and each time it fell on deaf ears. I no longer really care what you think of me. I don't believe he's a model Baron *yet*...but that could easily change...again, the Baron's response impressed me with it's calmness and lack of insult. I definitely must say my opinion of him has improved.
Drey, you'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't care for what you expect of me.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Baron of the 12th
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 24 Apr 2000 17:09:46 EDT
Roman
Let us 'ope thee dinna consider yuirself to be a model Baron, either. Thee hae shown thineself upon too manna occasions ast one wh' leaps ta conclusions th' offers wh' more oft than nae be insincere apology. Insincere, sirrah, for thee again perform th' same loutish behaviour ast hast e'er been yuir wont.
Jonalyn Starfare
Date: 24 Apr 2000 17:09:46 EDT
Roman
Let us 'ope thee dinna consider yuirself to be a model Baron, either. Thee hae shown thineself upon too manna occasions ast one wh' leaps ta conclusions th' offers wh' more oft than nae be insincere apology. Insincere, sirrah, for thee again perform th' same loutish behaviour ast hast e'er been yuir wont.
Jonalyn Starfare
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From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 24 Apr 2000 19:06:08 EDT
I see Jonalyn is bored.
I'll say this but once more....it is my belief that the ability to recongize your wrongdoings of the past and apologize for them is a sign of maturity.
If you think them insincere, that is your perogative. I know that they are not.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Baron of the 12th
Date: 24 Apr 2000 19:06:08 EDT
I see Jonalyn is bored.
I'll say this but once more....it is my belief that the ability to recongize your wrongdoings of the past and apologize for them is a sign of maturity.
If you think them insincere, that is your perogative. I know that they are not.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Baron of the 12th
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From: lyonxx@aol.com (Lyon xx)
Date: 24 Apr 2000 19:57:57 EDT
::flips through the board, reading the messages. Walks away, counting out loud...stops when he reaches 12::
Date: 24 Apr 2000 19:57:57 EDT
::flips through the board, reading the messages. Walks away, counting out loud...stops when he reaches 12::