From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 30 May 2000 20:19:20 EDT
"To what purpose, Jonalyn? So that they can place themselves before certain members of the public for ridicule for doing what they believe to be right?"
Just as I don't believe it in the public interest for, say, a committee of contractors first voting that the Arena needs to be torn down and rebuilt, then deciding amongst themselves who gets the contract to rebuild it, I also don't think it's appropriate for the same committee who voted to strip the Overlord of his title* to then have the right to decide that they get to decide amongst themselves who gets it, regardless of how that decision is made.
The entire thing stinks of a conflict of interest. Lady Starfare's request is eminently sensible.
* - Note that they were correct to strip the title, in my opinion.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Baron's Council - Avery vs. Drey
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 30 May 2000 20:24:32 EDT
"But I'd love to hear other suggestions for a possibly better way of determining the next Overlord."
Well, other than me simply claiming it...
A method which at least made some attempt to preserve Baron Starke's rights in the matter would have been nice. A method which didn't smack of an outlandish conflict of interest would have been pleasant.
Realistically, I agree that the tournament is most sensible, but the Council should not have been allowed to make both decisions. Justice of a sort may prevail, however, as whichever Baron is victorious lives with the knowledge that they face immediate challenge from the winner of the free attempt at the Overlordship.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 30 May 2000 20:24:32 EDT
"But I'd love to hear other suggestions for a possibly better way of determining the next Overlord."
Well, other than me simply claiming it...
A method which at least made some attempt to preserve Baron Starke's rights in the matter would have been nice. A method which didn't smack of an outlandish conflict of interest would have been pleasant.
Realistically, I agree that the tournament is most sensible, but the Council should not have been allowed to make both decisions. Justice of a sort may prevail, however, as whichever Baron is victorious lives with the knowledge that they face immediate challenge from the winner of the free attempt at the Overlordship.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 30 May 2000 21:17:23 EDT
>But I'd love to hear other suggestions for a possibly better way of
>determining the next Overlord.
Well, I would tend to be somewhat in favor of a Champion being chosen. This has been the case in more than a few challenges in the past. The Champion can then defend the crown against Drey, as would be eminently proper. Then, if the Champion won, the Barons' Tourney would most likely be declared by the officials of the sport, as it was on the last occasion that the crown was left vacant.
I do have to agree with Jonalyn and Rix that the Barons should make their votes on the matter known. I also agree with Ian that the decision seems to be at least a tad self-serving. While I am fairly certain of the motives of some members of the Council, there are others whose motives would seem to be a large question mark. Particularly those who lobbied loudest and longest in favor of a forfeit being declared in the first place. Now one of these
individuals has recused himself from the Tourney, but others have not yet declared their intentions.
Therefore, I would also request that those Barons who have not yet made their decisions and votes on the matter generally known do so now.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
The White Duke
Date: 30 May 2000 21:17:23 EDT
>But I'd love to hear other suggestions for a possibly better way of
>determining the next Overlord.
Well, I would tend to be somewhat in favor of a Champion being chosen. This has been the case in more than a few challenges in the past. The Champion can then defend the crown against Drey, as would be eminently proper. Then, if the Champion won, the Barons' Tourney would most likely be declared by the officials of the sport, as it was on the last occasion that the crown was left vacant.
I do have to agree with Jonalyn and Rix that the Barons should make their votes on the matter known. I also agree with Ian that the decision seems to be at least a tad self-serving. While I am fairly certain of the motives of some members of the Council, there are others whose motives would seem to be a large question mark. Particularly those who lobbied loudest and longest in favor of a forfeit being declared in the first place. Now one of these
individuals has recused himself from the Tourney, but others have not yet declared their intentions.
Therefore, I would also request that those Barons who have not yet made their decisions and votes on the matter generally known do so now.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
The White Duke
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From: oortael5@aol.com (OorTael5)
Date: 30 May 2000 21:20:04 EDT
I voted to strip Avery of the title and to hold a Tournament of Barons to determine the new Overlord. Certainly, we can't just hand over the title to Drey for being in the right place in the right time, and it was my belief that nobody can rightfully champion the position of Overlord. It was a tough decision indeed, one that certainly won't satisfy everyone. But I, as others who voted similiarily, felt that it was the best course of action, without
any, at least in my case, self-serving motivation.
-Galin
Date: 30 May 2000 21:20:04 EDT
I voted to strip Avery of the title and to hold a Tournament of Barons to determine the new Overlord. Certainly, we can't just hand over the title to Drey for being in the right place in the right time, and it was my belief that nobody can rightfully champion the position of Overlord. It was a tough decision indeed, one that certainly won't satisfy everyone. But I, as others who voted similiarily, felt that it was the best course of action, without
any, at least in my case, self-serving motivation.
-Galin
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From: sartanz@aol.com (Sartan Z)
Date: 30 May 2000 21:40:00 EDT
Know what really stinks? A Ring is going to sit empty for nearly a full 3 months.
Sartan
Date: 30 May 2000 21:40:00 EDT
Know what really stinks? A Ring is going to sit empty for nearly a full 3 months.
Sartan
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From: sartanz@aol.com (Sartan Z)
Date: 30 May 2000 21:40:00 EDT
Know what really stinks? A Ring is going to sit empty for nearly a full 3 months.
Sartan
Date: 30 May 2000 21:40:00 EDT
Know what really stinks? A Ring is going to sit empty for nearly a full 3 months.
Sartan
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From: cletusgandrfald@aol.com (Cletus Gandrfald)
Date: 30 May 2000 22:46:21 EDT
>Know what really stinks? A Ring is going to sit empty for nearly a full 3
>months.
One of the reasons this matter should have be handed to us sooner.
As for how I voted, I have already posted that information. For those who passed over it, I voted to strip Avery and hold a tournament to replace him.
Cletus
Date: 30 May 2000 22:46:21 EDT
>Know what really stinks? A Ring is going to sit empty for nearly a full 3
>months.
One of the reasons this matter should have be handed to us sooner.
As for how I voted, I have already posted that information. For those who passed over it, I voted to strip Avery and hold a tournament to replace him.
Cletus
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From: deluthan@aol.com (Deluthan)
Date: 30 May 2000 23:01:57 EDT
I'm curious now. . . . Someone has actually championed an empty throne?
Del
Date: 30 May 2000 23:01:57 EDT
I'm curious now. . . . Someone has actually championed an empty throne?
Del
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 31 May 2000 00:22:30 EDT
Khrys,
Lass, quite bluntly, th' Barons hae chosen ta depose th' Overlord, therefore they wouldst be little more th' bu' cowards ta keep their decisions from th' public.
Ast ta self servin', Khrys, wh' better way fer those 'o th' Council ta wrest title fer one 'o their own, when none bu' Drey hae ta courage ta challenge Avery.
Ast ta tradition, Khrys, t'was only wi' th' advent 'o th' Council wast th' fillin' 'o a vacant Overlord's title done by 'oldin' a Tourney 'o Barons. Afore th', t'was s tourney 'o warlords, an' afore th', t'was Gondar 'imself didst claim ta title, an' didst so wi' out combat.
If'n ta seated Barons fear comment, perhaps they shouldst find a 'ole in which ta 'ide.
Jonalyn Starfare
Date: 31 May 2000 00:22:30 EDT
Khrys,
Lass, quite bluntly, th' Barons hae chosen ta depose th' Overlord, therefore they wouldst be little more th' bu' cowards ta keep their decisions from th' public.
Ast ta self servin', Khrys, wh' better way fer those 'o th' Council ta wrest title fer one 'o their own, when none bu' Drey hae ta courage ta challenge Avery.
Ast ta tradition, Khrys, t'was only wi' th' advent 'o th' Council wast th' fillin' 'o a vacant Overlord's title done by 'oldin' a Tourney 'o Barons. Afore th', t'was s tourney 'o warlords, an' afore th', t'was Gondar 'imself didst claim ta title, an' didst so wi' out combat.
If'n ta seated Barons fear comment, perhaps they shouldst find a 'ole in which ta 'ide.
Jonalyn Starfare
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From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 31 May 2000 03:38:27 EDT
I voted to strip Avery of the title in what was probably the hardest, most regretful but neccessary decision I ever had to make.
I did so because the fact was, Avery had not been able to make his date of challenge for four weeks. No one is above the rules of the Arena, even though the occasional bit of leniency is not out of the question. Had the vote taken place one or two weeks after the fact, I would voted for a rematch. As it stood, I almost still did. However, I decided that four weeks was enough, and the title could not hang in limbo. I voted for the Tournament because
I do not believe that one champion is adaquate for deciding the highest title in our sport. The rulemakers of the Duel of Swords must have felt similiar sentiments when they installed the Best of Three and Test of Worthiness options. Reading through old documents also helped me to come to this decision, as I have discovered Avery himself once voting to strip a friend of a title to his regret; I felt this was an indicator he would understand and maybe
even want the Council to do the right thing.
One final comment. The behavior of certain Barons in this issue has been, shall we say, less than sterling. Some were calling for Avery's removal mere days after the deliberations began. Not a whit of care for whatever predictament he may have been in. Accusations that he himself was somehow a wrongdoer in all this. I let these Barons know how I felt, and was told in turn that I was a blind Loyalist, that I was attempting to revive a situation and
atmosphere similiar to Dal/Huma. Better to be a blind Loyalist than a Renegade weasel.
But in the end, four weeks was too long. The rules had to be paid attention to. Though it still doesn't make it feel any better.
Lastly, there have been accusations that some on the Council wanted this scenario for selfish purposes, because they wanted the crown. This was not why I voted for a Tournament. I listed the reasons I voted for the Tournament above; I simply do not feel comfortable with only one man standing in Drey's way. But as for a couple others...I believe that indeed, there was selfish reasons.
I stated to one person that I would like to participate in order to prevent certain individuals-like the man who replied to a query tonight on why he voted Avery be stripped with "Because"-from getting their tainted hands on the crown.
But after some thought-I have yet to decide.
I do not wish the crown, like some would believe. I do not feel myself ready for the crown. But I don't wish certain Barons to become the Overlord either.
These are my thoughts. Take them or leave them.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Baron of the 12th
Date: 31 May 2000 03:38:27 EDT
I voted to strip Avery of the title in what was probably the hardest, most regretful but neccessary decision I ever had to make.
I did so because the fact was, Avery had not been able to make his date of challenge for four weeks. No one is above the rules of the Arena, even though the occasional bit of leniency is not out of the question. Had the vote taken place one or two weeks after the fact, I would voted for a rematch. As it stood, I almost still did. However, I decided that four weeks was enough, and the title could not hang in limbo. I voted for the Tournament because
I do not believe that one champion is adaquate for deciding the highest title in our sport. The rulemakers of the Duel of Swords must have felt similiar sentiments when they installed the Best of Three and Test of Worthiness options. Reading through old documents also helped me to come to this decision, as I have discovered Avery himself once voting to strip a friend of a title to his regret; I felt this was an indicator he would understand and maybe
even want the Council to do the right thing.
One final comment. The behavior of certain Barons in this issue has been, shall we say, less than sterling. Some were calling for Avery's removal mere days after the deliberations began. Not a whit of care for whatever predictament he may have been in. Accusations that he himself was somehow a wrongdoer in all this. I let these Barons know how I felt, and was told in turn that I was a blind Loyalist, that I was attempting to revive a situation and
atmosphere similiar to Dal/Huma. Better to be a blind Loyalist than a Renegade weasel.
But in the end, four weeks was too long. The rules had to be paid attention to. Though it still doesn't make it feel any better.
Lastly, there have been accusations that some on the Council wanted this scenario for selfish purposes, because they wanted the crown. This was not why I voted for a Tournament. I listed the reasons I voted for the Tournament above; I simply do not feel comfortable with only one man standing in Drey's way. But as for a couple others...I believe that indeed, there was selfish reasons.
I stated to one person that I would like to participate in order to prevent certain individuals-like the man who replied to a query tonight on why he voted Avery be stripped with "Because"-from getting their tainted hands on the crown.
But after some thought-I have yet to decide.
I do not wish the crown, like some would believe. I do not feel myself ready for the crown. But I don't wish certain Barons to become the Overlord either.
These are my thoughts. Take them or leave them.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Baron of the 12th
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From: xxlucianxx@aol.com (XxLucianxX)
Date: 31 May 2000 05:23:13 EDT
>Some were calling for Avery's removal mere days after the deliberations
>began. Not a whit of care for whatever predictament he may have been in.
Well Cas, that wouldn't be a first for the council.
-- Lucian
::chuckles and shakes his head as he walks off::
Date: 31 May 2000 05:23:13 EDT
>Some were calling for Avery's removal mere days after the deliberations
>began. Not a whit of care for whatever predictament he may have been in.
Well Cas, that wouldn't be a first for the council.
-- Lucian
::chuckles and shakes his head as he walks off::
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From: morganalefay@aol.com (Morgana le Fay)
Date: 31 May 2000 11:14:11 EDT
Jonalyn wrote, "I, for one, do believe the community shouldst be made aware of each Baron's stance, and do call upon the Barons to stand forth and pronounce their decision publicly."
To which Khrysta asks, "To what purpose, Jonalyn?"
The barons make decisions that affect the state of the sport and the community. As such, we have a right to know how each baron voted. In fact, I'd argue that the barons don't have a right to their "voting privacy" and that Var should have laid out the breakdown for us. If anyone has a problem with how a particular baron/group of barons voted, let them debate it here on the boards.
Date: 31 May 2000 11:14:11 EDT
Jonalyn wrote, "I, for one, do believe the community shouldst be made aware of each Baron's stance, and do call upon the Barons to stand forth and pronounce their decision publicly."
To which Khrysta asks, "To what purpose, Jonalyn?"
The barons make decisions that affect the state of the sport and the community. As such, we have a right to know how each baron voted. In fact, I'd argue that the barons don't have a right to their "voting privacy" and that Var should have laid out the breakdown for us. If anyone has a problem with how a particular baron/group of barons voted, let them debate it here on the boards.
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 31 May 2000 12:15:13 EDT
> I'm curious now. . . . Someone has actually championed an empty throne?
No one has ever championed an empty Overlordship.. mostly, I believe, because the scenario is not one we have previously encountered. In the past the crown has gone vacant by holders retiring rather than forfeiting.**
Personally, I don't mind the tournament, especially since Mr. Starke, by virtue of being a baron, will still have a chance at the title. More than likely he would have had to of won 2 duels to take the title (the Overlord and his presumed champion).. now it'll just take one or two more.
One thing that I would suggest, in the sense of fairness and recognition that it was he who issued the challenge, is that if there is a bye to be givin in this tournament that he be the one to receive it. (of course a round robin style would probably make the most sense here, even if that type of thing takes a long time.)
~Kal
** There is a case of an Overlord refusing to fight for the title and in that case the challenger was declared the new Overlord without any champion or tournament held. This is what happened when Me Monk challenged Gondar and became the 2nd Overlord of DoS.
Date: 31 May 2000 12:15:13 EDT
> I'm curious now. . . . Someone has actually championed an empty throne?
No one has ever championed an empty Overlordship.. mostly, I believe, because the scenario is not one we have previously encountered. In the past the crown has gone vacant by holders retiring rather than forfeiting.**
Personally, I don't mind the tournament, especially since Mr. Starke, by virtue of being a baron, will still have a chance at the title. More than likely he would have had to of won 2 duels to take the title (the Overlord and his presumed champion).. now it'll just take one or two more.
One thing that I would suggest, in the sense of fairness and recognition that it was he who issued the challenge, is that if there is a bye to be givin in this tournament that he be the one to receive it. (of course a round robin style would probably make the most sense here, even if that type of thing takes a long time.)
~Kal
** There is a case of an Overlord refusing to fight for the title and in that case the challenger was declared the new Overlord without any champion or tournament held. This is what happened when Me Monk challenged Gondar and became the 2nd Overlord of DoS.
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 31 May 2000 13:25:42 EDT
>The barons make decisions that affect the state of the sport and the
>community. As such, we have a right to know how each baron voted. In fact,
>I'd argue that the barons don't have a right to their "voting privacy" and
>that Var should have laid out the breakdown for us. If anyone has a problem
>with how a particular baron/group of barons voted, let them debate it here on
>the boards.
>
>
I agree with just about all of this 100%. The only thing I disagree with even slightly is the statement that Var should have laid out the breakdown. While this isn't a bad idea, I would like it even more if each Baron (as Var and Daelin did) posted how they voted and why themselves. I would also add that while the Barons may not, personally, be required by the rules to post their votes and their reasoning and therefore do ahve at least technical
right to voting privacy, we as a Community have the right to suspect the motives of those who don't share their decisions.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
The White Duke
Date: 31 May 2000 13:25:42 EDT
>The barons make decisions that affect the state of the sport and the
>community. As such, we have a right to know how each baron voted. In fact,
>I'd argue that the barons don't have a right to their "voting privacy" and
>that Var should have laid out the breakdown for us. If anyone has a problem
>with how a particular baron/group of barons voted, let them debate it here on
>the boards.
>
>
I agree with just about all of this 100%. The only thing I disagree with even slightly is the statement that Var should have laid out the breakdown. While this isn't a bad idea, I would like it even more if each Baron (as Var and Daelin did) posted how they voted and why themselves. I would also add that while the Barons may not, personally, be required by the rules to post their votes and their reasoning and therefore do ahve at least technical
right to voting privacy, we as a Community have the right to suspect the motives of those who don't share their decisions.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
The White Duke
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 31 May 2000 16:21:20 EDT
"While this isn't a bad idea, I would like it even more if each Baron (as Var and Daelin did) posted how they voted and why themselves"
I am sure you mean Cas and Cletus, or Cas, Cletus, and Daelin, for I did not vote as Overseer.
However, if I did vote, I would have voted for Avery to be stripped of his title and the title be up for a Baron's Tournament. Drey had said himself he only wanted to fight Avery, so even though I thought having a tournament was the more practical and fair method, it was also weighted down more when Drey said he only wanted to fight Avery.
I probably would have voted the same even if he didn't say that, don't get me wrong. I just think that at this point, holding a tourney would have been more practical.
However, I didn't vote, but that would have been my vote if I did.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Date: 31 May 2000 16:21:20 EDT
"While this isn't a bad idea, I would like it even more if each Baron (as Var and Daelin did) posted how they voted and why themselves"
I am sure you mean Cas and Cletus, or Cas, Cletus, and Daelin, for I did not vote as Overseer.
However, if I did vote, I would have voted for Avery to be stripped of his title and the title be up for a Baron's Tournament. Drey had said himself he only wanted to fight Avery, so even though I thought having a tournament was the more practical and fair method, it was also weighted down more when Drey said he only wanted to fight Avery.
I probably would have voted the same even if he didn't say that, don't get me wrong. I just think that at this point, holding a tourney would have been more practical.
However, I didn't vote, but that would have been my vote if I did.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband