From: xvevan@aol.com (XvEvan)
Date: 26 Jul 2000 17:32:00 EDT
DoS:
I know of realignment before and after a challenge match. In one instance, I fought for the challenger and the current OL of the time banished myself from Neutral to Renegade which was a wise move on his part and on mine. We both had reasons to why Dal was testing the challenging Warlord and my defending the Warlord. Sartan was appointed to defend the crown. Nothing much came from that but the rule that Neutrals banished can't challenge the
crown as a Loyal can if banished. I am the reason for that rule.
In the second instance I was challenged by Jaycy and went from Renegade to Loyal after helping Dal fight for his wife's life, Sid. Now that does not have anything to do with changing alignment right before the match but Dal came to watch me take on the challenge of Jaycy with Rix in que for a second time. The OL offered me out of all people a chance to practice the test against Jaycy which I never took. I ended up losing to her in the final rounds
of that match but needless to say my wishes were respected. Dal knew I hated the test but we had started a bond of friendship that could look over the simple fact of disagreement. Tay and her loyal Baron can make up but Tay stepping in no matter what to test is downright disrespectful to anyone that does not wish it. But that is a right for the Overlord to loyals no matter what the loyal thinks. The loyal Baron has the right to turn Renegade or stay
Loyal. There would have been no difference if Zen challenged from the Warlord spot, the test would have still be enacted against him. Therefor, the OL's actions and Baron's next actions will show their feelings towards this matter. Now we shall wait for response from both.
-Evan Rush Rynth
Defense of the Second
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From: elijahbasiauhr@aol.com (Elijah Basia Uhr)
Date: 26 Jul 2000 18:16:06 EDT
Cassius,
Do you really need any more confirmation about the current Overlord not being in her right mind?
Daryl,
Don't make the mistake of championing such a scurge to the sport, and realign yourself to Renegade to save face before this community.
All,
Please if you have the ability and current qualifications remove the current holder of the crown. She has stained and tarnsed the respect of such a title with her disrespectful and dishonorable actions while holding the crown.
~Elijah
Date: 26 Jul 2000 18:16:06 EDT
Cassius,
Do you really need any more confirmation about the current Overlord not being in her right mind?
Daryl,
Don't make the mistake of championing such a scurge to the sport, and realign yourself to Renegade to save face before this community.
All,
Please if you have the ability and current qualifications remove the current holder of the crown. She has stained and tarnsed the respect of such a title with her disrespectful and dishonorable actions while holding the crown.
~Elijah
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From: unagim@aol.com (Unagi M)
Date: 26 Jul 2000 19:46:02 EDT
Shogun does what shogun wants.
Loyalty is more than having your own way.
Date: 26 Jul 2000 19:46:02 EDT
Shogun does what shogun wants.
Loyalty is more than having your own way.
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 26 Jul 2000 21:32:26 EDT
I believe that Baron Miyamoto has stated it best.
To me, Loyalty is an extreme thing... and, unfortunately, I know of no-one dueling that I could give such loyalty to.
To me, Loyalty is throwing aside any personal wish or desire that runs counter to the wishes and desires of the person you are loyal to.
Were I a Loyal Baron, and the Overlord asked if I wished intersession on a challenge... I would tell them it was their choice solely.
This is an ethic I have grown into over time... and I certainly cannot say that others should live by it. Only that it offers me a unique perspective to view this recent event.
I am Loyal to my wife, I am Loyal to my daughters. I respect many, and am friends with many, but I could not see myself offering my Loyalty to many.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
Date: 26 Jul 2000 21:32:26 EDT
I believe that Baron Miyamoto has stated it best.
To me, Loyalty is an extreme thing... and, unfortunately, I know of no-one dueling that I could give such loyalty to.
To me, Loyalty is throwing aside any personal wish or desire that runs counter to the wishes and desires of the person you are loyal to.
Were I a Loyal Baron, and the Overlord asked if I wished intersession on a challenge... I would tell them it was their choice solely.
This is an ethic I have grown into over time... and I certainly cannot say that others should live by it. Only that it offers me a unique perspective to view this recent event.
I am Loyal to my wife, I am Loyal to my daughters. I respect many, and am friends with many, but I could not see myself offering my Loyalty to many.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
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From: andrewpyre@aol.com (AndrewPyre)
Date: 26 Jul 2000 21:38:45 EDT
My Dear Unagi,
Your short pithy comment hit the proverbial nail squarely on the head. I salute you the person and your excellent thought processes.
As for those who are in such a hurry to divest Ariadne and Tay from their titles you should remember that what you do can be done to you. But, as I have remarked in the past the abiilty to cut one's own nose off to spite their face is rampant in our fair community.
Your humble servant
Andrew Pyre
Date: 26 Jul 2000 21:38:45 EDT
My Dear Unagi,
Your short pithy comment hit the proverbial nail squarely on the head. I salute you the person and your excellent thought processes.
As for those who are in such a hurry to divest Ariadne and Tay from their titles you should remember that what you do can be done to you. But, as I have remarked in the past the abiilty to cut one's own nose off to spite their face is rampant in our fair community.
Your humble servant
Andrew Pyre
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From: zenithi@aol.com (Zenith I)
Date: 26 Jul 2000 23:57:28 EDT
Quick thoughts:
I agree with Unagi that loyalty is more than having your own way, but at the same time I would like to know his own reasons for remaining loyal, as he is one of the few (and possibly the only one) who shows any fealty to her whose opinion I also respect. (As I've already noted, I consider there to be many reasons beyond this why Taylara does not receive my support).
On a related note: loyalty is a two-way street. I am of the mind that when one declares loyalty he does not give up his say in matters to the one he is loyal to, but rather that there be some mutual respect; i.e. the loyalty is also reciprocated. (At least when it comes to Baron-Overlord loyalties in the Duel of Swords. Situations outside of it may not be quite the same.)
Daryl Kyle: If I was serious enough about not wanting an intercession I would do whatever it took to alleviate that matter.
At the same time, you admit Taylara is wrong in this matter but you continue to defend her over it? My boy, I think you are blindly defending her without considering the right or wrong of the matter.
Of course, keep in mind I was an opponent of Taylara before this matter happened-- so I am of the opinion that this is not just a matter which is cause for an uprising, but rather a symptom of the basic incompetence demonstrated by our Overlord.
Z
Date: 26 Jul 2000 23:57:28 EDT
Quick thoughts:
I agree with Unagi that loyalty is more than having your own way, but at the same time I would like to know his own reasons for remaining loyal, as he is one of the few (and possibly the only one) who shows any fealty to her whose opinion I also respect. (As I've already noted, I consider there to be many reasons beyond this why Taylara does not receive my support).
On a related note: loyalty is a two-way street. I am of the mind that when one declares loyalty he does not give up his say in matters to the one he is loyal to, but rather that there be some mutual respect; i.e. the loyalty is also reciprocated. (At least when it comes to Baron-Overlord loyalties in the Duel of Swords. Situations outside of it may not be quite the same.)
Daryl Kyle: If I was serious enough about not wanting an intercession I would do whatever it took to alleviate that matter.
At the same time, you admit Taylara is wrong in this matter but you continue to defend her over it? My boy, I think you are blindly defending her without considering the right or wrong of the matter.
Of course, keep in mind I was an opponent of Taylara before this matter happened-- so I am of the opinion that this is not just a matter which is cause for an uprising, but rather a symptom of the basic incompetence demonstrated by our Overlord.
Z
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 27 Jul 2000 00:06:11 EDT
Unagi,
With all due respect, though your statement is basically right, this situation is a tad different. Loyalty is more than getting what one wants. However, it's also respecting the wishes of those Loyal to you and keeping that Loyalty.
What Taylara did was morally wrong.
She went against the wishes of her Baron. It's a matter of disrespect, immoral, and dishonorable. She does not deserve the loyalty nor the support of anyone in the Arena, and I condemn those who continue supporting her.
Loyalty is not about being blind. Blind loyalty makes you nothing but sheep. I would hope you, Unagi, would know better. Deluthan I hope gets a clue about it, and Ariadne I expect nothing less than. She needs to be led. Also needs to be dethroned.
To all.
Someone get rid of her before I am forced to unretire and take care of this personally. Ellisa, win, win fast, and have a good champion to take care of whatever pathetically loyal baron she places in your way. After that, perhaps others can then clean the baron ranks of those who infest it like a plague.
Also, the fact that Andrew is standing for Taylara should say something.
G.
Date: 27 Jul 2000 00:06:11 EDT
Unagi,
With all due respect, though your statement is basically right, this situation is a tad different. Loyalty is more than getting what one wants. However, it's also respecting the wishes of those Loyal to you and keeping that Loyalty.
What Taylara did was morally wrong.
She went against the wishes of her Baron. It's a matter of disrespect, immoral, and dishonorable. She does not deserve the loyalty nor the support of anyone in the Arena, and I condemn those who continue supporting her.
Loyalty is not about being blind. Blind loyalty makes you nothing but sheep. I would hope you, Unagi, would know better. Deluthan I hope gets a clue about it, and Ariadne I expect nothing less than. She needs to be led. Also needs to be dethroned.
To all.
Someone get rid of her before I am forced to unretire and take care of this personally. Ellisa, win, win fast, and have a good champion to take care of whatever pathetically loyal baron she places in your way. After that, perhaps others can then clean the baron ranks of those who infest it like a plague.
Also, the fact that Andrew is standing for Taylara should say something.
G.
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 27 Jul 2000 01:39:28 EDT
Simply put...
Loyalty is not a two-way street. While I know my daughters love me, I do not expect them to act just a certain way to please me. My loyalty to them is very one-way. I would die to protect them, I do not expect or even want the reverse to be true.
If my Jhessail were to ask me to leave behind the Duel of Swords, I would do it without hesitation. I might not be happy to do so, but I would do it. She knows this, and her loyalty to me keeps her from asking.
Loyalty in the Duel of Swords is Fealty. You swear to protect and support the Overlord... the Overlord does not swear to protect or support you. They often will, but not always.
For an excellent example of this, I refer you to the Histories. When Loyal Baron Heath MacCormack was defending the Third Ring from Ulath Fici, Overlord Dalamar cheered for Fici, not the Loyal Baron.
For many, friendship is stronger than Loyalty. For others, Loyalty overrides everything. For a few, neither matters.
Which are you?
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
Date: 27 Jul 2000 01:39:28 EDT
Simply put...
Loyalty is not a two-way street. While I know my daughters love me, I do not expect them to act just a certain way to please me. My loyalty to them is very one-way. I would die to protect them, I do not expect or even want the reverse to be true.
If my Jhessail were to ask me to leave behind the Duel of Swords, I would do it without hesitation. I might not be happy to do so, but I would do it. She knows this, and her loyalty to me keeps her from asking.
Loyalty in the Duel of Swords is Fealty. You swear to protect and support the Overlord... the Overlord does not swear to protect or support you. They often will, but not always.
For an excellent example of this, I refer you to the Histories. When Loyal Baron Heath MacCormack was defending the Third Ring from Ulath Fici, Overlord Dalamar cheered for Fici, not the Loyal Baron.
For many, friendship is stronger than Loyalty. For others, Loyalty overrides everything. For a few, neither matters.
Which are you?
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
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From: darylkyle@aol.com (Daryl Kyle)
Date: 27 Jul 2000 07:56:17 EDT
To All:
Taylara is a dear friend of mine, she always have been there when I needed her. When a friend of yours does something wrong you don't cut off all ties with them and cast them down as they are nothing. You try to find out the reasons and such why it was done and hope they get it though thier head. Asking the Loyals to turn Renagade because of this makes you people no better than Methous in some respects. I stand beside Taylara as a friend and if
I gain the 6th back I will stand as Loyal even if I am the only loyal baron that she holds at the time. As for saving face in the community...That doesn't matter to me for the sole purpose that most of you have already judged me as a 'bad person" long before this incident. The reasons why most of you people don't like me is unknown to me but I am sure that when you are ready to tell me I will listen.
Daryl Kyle
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Former Baron of the 6th Baronial Ring
Knight of Paladine
Date: 27 Jul 2000 07:56:17 EDT
To All:
Taylara is a dear friend of mine, she always have been there when I needed her. When a friend of yours does something wrong you don't cut off all ties with them and cast them down as they are nothing. You try to find out the reasons and such why it was done and hope they get it though thier head. Asking the Loyals to turn Renagade because of this makes you people no better than Methous in some respects. I stand beside Taylara as a friend and if
I gain the 6th back I will stand as Loyal even if I am the only loyal baron that she holds at the time. As for saving face in the community...That doesn't matter to me for the sole purpose that most of you have already judged me as a 'bad person" long before this incident. The reasons why most of you people don't like me is unknown to me but I am sure that when you are ready to tell me I will listen.
Daryl Kyle
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Former Baron of the 6th Baronial Ring
Knight of Paladine
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From: zenithi@aol.com (Zenith I)
Date: 27 Jul 2000 16:42:44 EDT
"Asking the Loyals to turn Renagade because of this makes you people no better than Methous in some respects."
What respects are those?
Date: 27 Jul 2000 16:42:44 EDT
"Asking the Loyals to turn Renagade because of this makes you people no better than Methous in some respects."
What respects are those?
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From: darylkyle@aol.com (Daryl Kyle)
Date: 27 Jul 2000 16:53:16 EDT
In the respects that since you don't think it was right for someone to do something you are willing to desicrate people and the DoS....Methous destroyed the ring because Aspen refused to allow a reschedueling of a match. He didn't like what Aspen was doing so he desicrated the DoS....by asking people to go renegade because you don't agree with something is the same thing
Daryl Kyle
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Former Baron of the 6th Baronial Ring
Knight of Paladine
Date: 27 Jul 2000 16:53:16 EDT
In the respects that since you don't think it was right for someone to do something you are willing to desicrate people and the DoS....Methous destroyed the ring because Aspen refused to allow a reschedueling of a match. He didn't like what Aspen was doing so he desicrated the DoS....by asking people to go renegade because you don't agree with something is the same thing
Daryl Kyle
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Former Baron of the 6th Baronial Ring
Knight of Paladine
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From: shadowrun@aol.com (Shadowrun)
Date: 27 Jul 2000 17:11:48 EDT
>In the respects that since you don't think it was right for someone to do
>something you are willing to desicrate people and the DoS....Methous
>destroyed the ring because Aspen refused to allow a reschedueling of a match.
>He didn't like what Aspen was doing so he desicrated the DoS....by asking
>people to go renegade because you don't agree with something is the same
>thing
Warlord Kyle,
Your subliterate ravings, while surely heartfelt and born of friendship and loyalty, seem to revolve around emotion rather than logic. That may be perfectly in accord with your own standards of dignity and honour, but may also seem childish and naive to those who are your intended audience.
Please spare me any argument regarding "what feels right" and "following your heart", sir -- the matter that has been brought rather explosively to the fore is not one of friendship. Cassius Gaius Maximus remains Taylara's friend, but now feels that his loyalty was ill-advised in light of her most recent behaviour.
As to your accusations regarding "desecration"... Methous, if I am not mistaken, attempted to destroy a Baronial ring in a fit of pique.
Warlord Basia Uhr has, as far as I see, rather dramatically and unequivocally called for all Barons of conscience to declare themselves Renegade to the Crown in light of what he and others see as the Overlord's recent... Misbehavior? Less-than-exemplary comportment? I do not know how best to describe it.
At any rate, you and he have a difference of opinion. Perhaps you might discuss the root of the disagreement rather than resorting to mere namecalling. Namecalling has never settled anything in the DoS, and Warlord Basia Uhr, however viciously you feel he has decried Taylara as Overlord, wrote what he did based on her actions, not on his personal opinions of her. Perhaps you might consider doing the same.
With every shred of respect due to you,
Fandral Kurgan
Date: 27 Jul 2000 17:11:48 EDT
>In the respects that since you don't think it was right for someone to do
>something you are willing to desicrate people and the DoS....Methous
>destroyed the ring because Aspen refused to allow a reschedueling of a match.
>He didn't like what Aspen was doing so he desicrated the DoS....by asking
>people to go renegade because you don't agree with something is the same
>thing
Warlord Kyle,
Your subliterate ravings, while surely heartfelt and born of friendship and loyalty, seem to revolve around emotion rather than logic. That may be perfectly in accord with your own standards of dignity and honour, but may also seem childish and naive to those who are your intended audience.
Please spare me any argument regarding "what feels right" and "following your heart", sir -- the matter that has been brought rather explosively to the fore is not one of friendship. Cassius Gaius Maximus remains Taylara's friend, but now feels that his loyalty was ill-advised in light of her most recent behaviour.
As to your accusations regarding "desecration"... Methous, if I am not mistaken, attempted to destroy a Baronial ring in a fit of pique.
Warlord Basia Uhr has, as far as I see, rather dramatically and unequivocally called for all Barons of conscience to declare themselves Renegade to the Crown in light of what he and others see as the Overlord's recent... Misbehavior? Less-than-exemplary comportment? I do not know how best to describe it.
At any rate, you and he have a difference of opinion. Perhaps you might discuss the root of the disagreement rather than resorting to mere namecalling. Namecalling has never settled anything in the DoS, and Warlord Basia Uhr, however viciously you feel he has decried Taylara as Overlord, wrote what he did based on her actions, not on his personal opinions of her. Perhaps you might consider doing the same.
With every shred of respect due to you,
Fandral Kurgan
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From: darylkyle@aol.com (Daryl Kyle)
Date: 27 Jul 2000 17:35:50 EDT
Lord Kurgan and Lord Elijah:
After reading your message Lord Kurgan I agree with you...namecalling has never solved anything within the duels..and it never will. What you said made perfect sense, and for that you have gained my extreme respect. Elijah, me and you are friends and we fought in the Special Tourny together. I apologize to you for insulting you..it was my fault that I did let feelings get to me. Every Overlord that has ruled in the Duel of Swords has made a
mistake within thier reign. Yet some of them are held as the best duelers in the DoS...Why not make an outcry to have thier entire council go against them? Forgive my stances on this but Taylara might have made a mistake, but is still in my eyes a good overlord and a good friend. One mistake isn't enough for me to turn renegade against her. She will have to do much more than that to have that happen.
Daryl Kyle
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Former Baron of the 6th Baronial Ring
Knight of Paladine
Date: 27 Jul 2000 17:35:50 EDT
Lord Kurgan and Lord Elijah:
After reading your message Lord Kurgan I agree with you...namecalling has never solved anything within the duels..and it never will. What you said made perfect sense, and for that you have gained my extreme respect. Elijah, me and you are friends and we fought in the Special Tourny together. I apologize to you for insulting you..it was my fault that I did let feelings get to me. Every Overlord that has ruled in the Duel of Swords has made a
mistake within thier reign. Yet some of them are held as the best duelers in the DoS...Why not make an outcry to have thier entire council go against them? Forgive my stances on this but Taylara might have made a mistake, but is still in my eyes a good overlord and a good friend. One mistake isn't enough for me to turn renegade against her. She will have to do much more than that to have that happen.
Daryl Kyle
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Former Baron of the 6th Baronial Ring
Knight of Paladine
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From: andrewpyre@aol.com (AndrewPyre)
Date: 27 Jul 2000 19:37:36 EDT
My Dear G,
The fact that I support Tay does indeed speak well of her. I, who support only Avery fully have found her to be a champion who endeavors to take on all the problems in our community as if they were her own. Indeed her intercession was but an excellent example of a ruler attempting to come to the aid of her loyal subjects.
If Tay has any failings it is that she trys too hard to shift the burden from others onto her shoulders. You who show so little faith in anyone including yourself are perhaps acting out of resentment and jealousy.
So yes, I proudly support Tay against the likes of you and your ilk.
Your humble servant,
Andrew Pyre
Date: 27 Jul 2000 19:37:36 EDT
My Dear G,
The fact that I support Tay does indeed speak well of her. I, who support only Avery fully have found her to be a champion who endeavors to take on all the problems in our community as if they were her own. Indeed her intercession was but an excellent example of a ruler attempting to come to the aid of her loyal subjects.
If Tay has any failings it is that she trys too hard to shift the burden from others onto her shoulders. You who show so little faith in anyone including yourself are perhaps acting out of resentment and jealousy.
So yes, I proudly support Tay against the likes of you and your ilk.
Your humble servant,
Andrew Pyre
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From: andrewpyre@aol.com (AndrewPyre)
Date: 27 Jul 2000 19:51:41 EDT
For Those Who Waver
Oh ye of little faith. Are you but banners blowing in a fitful wind shifting according to the direction of the moment? Fie on you who seek to abandon your Overlord over a disagreement as to her actions. There is little doubt that she did intercede under the belief she was helping her loyal subject.
I care not a whit as to what you think of me. I am but a small voice. But some of you, the mighty Barons and Warlords seem to have forgotten what loyalty means. So many of you did the same thing over Avery that I should not be shocked by this but I had hoped better of you.
So fie on you who have lost your faith. Scatter to the winds and nurse your small wounds and over large self-opinions. I curse you who falter in your sworn oaths to the Overlord to the fate of never knowing who to trust from this day forward. You will never know if the smiling face holds a knife, the figure on the corner a friend or foe. May the worms of your guilt shred your souls.
For those of you who stand strong and proud in their support of the Overlord you have my respect and favor.
Andrew Pyre
Date: 27 Jul 2000 19:51:41 EDT
For Those Who Waver
Oh ye of little faith. Are you but banners blowing in a fitful wind shifting according to the direction of the moment? Fie on you who seek to abandon your Overlord over a disagreement as to her actions. There is little doubt that she did intercede under the belief she was helping her loyal subject.
I care not a whit as to what you think of me. I am but a small voice. But some of you, the mighty Barons and Warlords seem to have forgotten what loyalty means. So many of you did the same thing over Avery that I should not be shocked by this but I had hoped better of you.
So fie on you who have lost your faith. Scatter to the winds and nurse your small wounds and over large self-opinions. I curse you who falter in your sworn oaths to the Overlord to the fate of never knowing who to trust from this day forward. You will never know if the smiling face holds a knife, the figure on the corner a friend or foe. May the worms of your guilt shred your souls.
For those of you who stand strong and proud in their support of the Overlord you have my respect and favor.
Andrew Pyre