From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 14:56:37 EDT
Laird MacKenzie:
You write: "I prefer not to see the rules of our sport in a position where they can be manipulated in such a manner. Either we must prevent an Overlord from doing this, or we must accept that they have a right to align all Barons Renegade upon ascending to the title, and such right supercedes a Baron's right to choose.PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"
The Rules are clear in this matter. The Overlord does not have the Right to align all Barons Renegade upon ascending to the title. The wording is very clear... The Overlord may banish a Loyal Baron to Renegade. If a Baron is not Loyal, they cannot be banished.
I have already petitioned the Supervisors for a final ruling on this matter.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
A copy of an official document
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 15:45:09 EDT
"If a Baron is allowed to declare their loyalty after the Overlord announces his intent to align all Barons to Renegade, you have a situation where a Baron who FULLY INTENDS, right from the outset, to challenge said Overlord, to make a mock declaration of Loyalty after the fact in order to trigger an
immediate priority challenge, which takes precedence over one issued by a Warlord or a Baron who initially declared Renegade."
You had admitted before that it's far from you to agree with me, Ian, and here's me pointing out that you're absolutely correct.
In fact, a baron had already announced a desire to be loyal to Daegarth, and when Daegarth banished him, he is pressing for immediate challenge.
It sickens me. Not many approved of when I went renegade to Avery, but I have my reasons. However, I can't think of any reason someone would declare loyalty to an Overlord and then challenge because the Overlord doesn't accept it.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Date: 16 Sep 2000 15:45:09 EDT
"If a Baron is allowed to declare their loyalty after the Overlord announces his intent to align all Barons to Renegade, you have a situation where a Baron who FULLY INTENDS, right from the outset, to challenge said Overlord, to make a mock declaration of Loyalty after the fact in order to trigger an
immediate priority challenge, which takes precedence over one issued by a Warlord or a Baron who initially declared Renegade."
You had admitted before that it's far from you to agree with me, Ian, and here's me pointing out that you're absolutely correct.
In fact, a baron had already announced a desire to be loyal to Daegarth, and when Daegarth banished him, he is pressing for immediate challenge.
It sickens me. Not many approved of when I went renegade to Avery, but I have my reasons. However, I can't think of any reason someone would declare loyalty to an Overlord and then challenge because the Overlord doesn't accept it.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 16:52:36 EDT
"The Rules are clear in this matter. The Overlord does not have the Right to align all Barons Renegade upon ascending to the title."
Could you perhaps be more pedantic? The Overlord has the absolute right to set all his Barons to Renegade. That some of them may already BE Renegade is wholly and completely irrelevant to the discussion.
"The wording is very clear... The Overlord may banish a Loyal Baron to Renegade. If a Baron is not Loyal, they cannot be banished."
The only impact to Renegade and not-yet-aligned Barons is that they don't gain the right to issue immediate and uninterruptable challenge. Is there something about this that isn't easily understood? The point is that the Overlord has NO POWER to affect those who declare themselves Renegade; he cannot "banish" them to Loyal status. However, he CAN affect those who wish to declare themselves Loyal.
An Overlord who says "All Barons will be declared Renegade" is in effect allowing those Barons who would already have declared as Renegade, but have not yet done so, to declare themselves Loyal in order to "force" the implementation of the banishment effects.
Insofar as you cannot legislate allowing an Overlord to express his intentions... and insofar as, despite what some people would like to believe, Loyalty is something which should be accepted by the party to whom Loyalty is being declared... it seems to me that the only safe option is to disallow the "immediate challenge" in cases where the Overlord makes this move.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 16 Sep 2000 16:52:36 EDT
"The Rules are clear in this matter. The Overlord does not have the Right to align all Barons Renegade upon ascending to the title."
Could you perhaps be more pedantic? The Overlord has the absolute right to set all his Barons to Renegade. That some of them may already BE Renegade is wholly and completely irrelevant to the discussion.
"The wording is very clear... The Overlord may banish a Loyal Baron to Renegade. If a Baron is not Loyal, they cannot be banished."
The only impact to Renegade and not-yet-aligned Barons is that they don't gain the right to issue immediate and uninterruptable challenge. Is there something about this that isn't easily understood? The point is that the Overlord has NO POWER to affect those who declare themselves Renegade; he cannot "banish" them to Loyal status. However, he CAN affect those who wish to declare themselves Loyal.
An Overlord who says "All Barons will be declared Renegade" is in effect allowing those Barons who would already have declared as Renegade, but have not yet done so, to declare themselves Loyal in order to "force" the implementation of the banishment effects.
Insofar as you cannot legislate allowing an Overlord to express his intentions... and insofar as, despite what some people would like to believe, Loyalty is something which should be accepted by the party to whom Loyalty is being declared... it seems to me that the only safe option is to disallow the "immediate challenge" in cases where the Overlord makes this move.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 16:58:04 EDT
"However, I can't think of any reason someone would declare loyalty to an Overlord and then challenge because the Overlord doesn't accept it."
I can think of one.
When Feadur declared us all Renegade so many years ago, part of his reasoning was stated very clearly: it was his opinion that as the Overlord, it was his duty to BE challenged, often and honorably. Further, he made it quite clear to me, personally, that he, as Overlord, could see no finer honor than being challenged by a friend or by one who held him in deep regard.
As such, at that time, and with his encouragement, I did, indeed, attempt to press challenge immediately.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 16 Sep 2000 16:58:04 EDT
"However, I can't think of any reason someone would declare loyalty to an Overlord and then challenge because the Overlord doesn't accept it."
I can think of one.
When Feadur declared us all Renegade so many years ago, part of his reasoning was stated very clearly: it was his opinion that as the Overlord, it was his duty to BE challenged, often and honorably. Further, he made it quite clear to me, personally, that he, as Overlord, could see no finer honor than being challenged by a friend or by one who held him in deep regard.
As such, at that time, and with his encouragement, I did, indeed, attempt to press challenge immediately.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: averyshivblade@aol.com (Avery Shiv Blade)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 19:43:53 EDT
> The point is that the Overlord has NO POWER to affect those who declare
>themselves Renegade; he cannot "banish" them to Loyal status.
Actually, you are wrong in this statement. Strictly following the rules, which we all hold in such high regard, at least.
8. Can, at anytime, switch the alignment of a Baron with reason given in writing to all Barons and to the Standings Keeper provided a WoL record of 15 is maintained.
Switch the alignments of a baron. Not a loyal baron, and not a neutral baron, but a Baron. So strictly speaking the overlord can at any time switch a renegade to Loyal, despite the fact that the rene may not wish to do so. Oversight? Of course, and I hope that the rule is change someday, but until then I wait for an Overlord to do just this.
Then this question pops up. If the renegade challenges the OL, and the OL switches the alignment of the renegade to Loyal, can he still press challenge? Of course a Loyal Baron cannot challenge a OL. This brings up the age old question of whether or not the previous action cancels out the recent. Should a baron be able to participate in a WLT? Should someone who losses warlord status be able to still press their challenge? Interesting choice to say
the least.
Anyway, just pointing out, that the rules clearly state that an OL can indeed switch a Renegade to Loyal.
Avery Shiv Blade
Date: 16 Sep 2000 19:43:53 EDT
> The point is that the Overlord has NO POWER to affect those who declare
>themselves Renegade; he cannot "banish" them to Loyal status.
Actually, you are wrong in this statement. Strictly following the rules, which we all hold in such high regard, at least.
8. Can, at anytime, switch the alignment of a Baron with reason given in writing to all Barons and to the Standings Keeper provided a WoL record of 15 is maintained.
Switch the alignments of a baron. Not a loyal baron, and not a neutral baron, but a Baron. So strictly speaking the overlord can at any time switch a renegade to Loyal, despite the fact that the rene may not wish to do so. Oversight? Of course, and I hope that the rule is change someday, but until then I wait for an Overlord to do just this.
Then this question pops up. If the renegade challenges the OL, and the OL switches the alignment of the renegade to Loyal, can he still press challenge? Of course a Loyal Baron cannot challenge a OL. This brings up the age old question of whether or not the previous action cancels out the recent. Should a baron be able to participate in a WLT? Should someone who losses warlord status be able to still press their challenge? Interesting choice to say
the least.
Anyway, just pointing out, that the rules clearly state that an OL can indeed switch a Renegade to Loyal.
Avery Shiv Blade
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 22:34:26 EDT
"Anyway, just pointing out, that the rules clearly state that an OL can indeed switch a Renegade to Loyal."
A very good catch of what I know to be an unfortunate and unintended linguistic loophole, Avery. Thank you for addressing it.
For the record, the intent of the rules is, indeed, that no Overlord may force any Baron to take a Loyal stance, under any circumstances. This language needs to be cleared up.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 16 Sep 2000 22:34:26 EDT
"Anyway, just pointing out, that the rules clearly state that an OL can indeed switch a Renegade to Loyal."
A very good catch of what I know to be an unfortunate and unintended linguistic loophole, Avery. Thank you for addressing it.
For the record, the intent of the rules is, indeed, that no Overlord may force any Baron to take a Loyal stance, under any circumstances. This language needs to be cleared up.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: aerisa@aol.com (Aerisa)
Date: 18 Sep 2000 05:28:06 EDT
> You may be familiar with him; bellicose Scotsman, about 6'8", large and
>usually drunk.>>
::Wonders what a drunken Scotsman wears under his kilts.::
Date: 18 Sep 2000 05:28:06 EDT
> You may be familiar with him; bellicose Scotsman, about 6'8", large and
>usually drunk.>>
::Wonders what a drunken Scotsman wears under his kilts.::
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From: zur030@aol.com (Zur030)
Date: 18 Sep 2000 13:54:07 EDT
>::Wonders what a drunken Scotsman wears under his kilts.::
A true Scot wears naught under 'is kilt.
~Grayson MacLeod
Date: 18 Sep 2000 13:54:07 EDT
>::Wonders what a drunken Scotsman wears under his kilts.::
A true Scot wears naught under 'is kilt.
~Grayson MacLeod
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From: tristonlkl@aol.com (TristonLkL)
Date: 19 Sep 2000 00:47:39 EDT
>>::Wonders what a drunken Scotsman wears under his kilts.::
>
>A true Scot wears naught under 'is kilt.
>
Lipstick, as any true Scot.
Date: 19 Sep 2000 00:47:39 EDT
>>::Wonders what a drunken Scotsman wears under his kilts.::
>
>A true Scot wears naught under 'is kilt.
>
Lipstick, as any true Scot.
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From: hostdfcturi@aol.com (HOST DFC Turi)
Date: 19 Sep 2000 01:25:43 EDT
As written to the Standings Keeper and the Barons Council, my ruling on the matter:
Lords and Ladies,
As an official ruling was requested, an official ruling shall be made.
Per the Rules of Challenge, under the rights of the Overlord:
" 8. Can, at anytime, switch the alignment of a Baron with reason given in
writing to all Barons and to the Standings Keeper provided a WoL
record of 15 is maintained."
As the Overlord may switch the alignment of any Baron at any time, Daegarth was well within his rights to immediately banish all of his Barons to Renegade.
But there is the matter of the reason given in writing. While I am perfectly willing to let his notification of the Challenge Match Official for recording in her report to the Standings Keeper stand for the written notice to the Standings Keeper, the Barons were given no such written notice at the time.
Official written notice was received from the Overlord by all concerned parties on the date of 9/15 at approximately 9:30 by the Eastern clock. Any Baron who had declared him or herself Loyal, or had not yet declared his or her alignment as of that time are considered Banished to Renegade and hold the right to immediate challenge. All Barons who had declared themselves Renegade before this time are aligned by personal choice, and so have the
right to challenge as per a standard Challenge by a Renegade to the Overlord.
Additionally, I will state than any Banished Baron wishing to utilize his or her right to challenge must make his or her challenge and have it ratified by the Standings Keeper before the Overlord's match with Sartan. This is a ruling based upon my sole discretion; make of it what you will.
I will post notice of my ruling on this matter on the corkboard.
Turienal Lodrelhai Castle
Assistant Supervisor, Historian
Duel of Swords
((AOL Community Leader Volunteer))
Date: 19 Sep 2000 01:25:43 EDT
As written to the Standings Keeper and the Barons Council, my ruling on the matter:
Lords and Ladies,
As an official ruling was requested, an official ruling shall be made.
Per the Rules of Challenge, under the rights of the Overlord:
" 8. Can, at anytime, switch the alignment of a Baron with reason given in
writing to all Barons and to the Standings Keeper provided a WoL
record of 15 is maintained."
As the Overlord may switch the alignment of any Baron at any time, Daegarth was well within his rights to immediately banish all of his Barons to Renegade.
But there is the matter of the reason given in writing. While I am perfectly willing to let his notification of the Challenge Match Official for recording in her report to the Standings Keeper stand for the written notice to the Standings Keeper, the Barons were given no such written notice at the time.
Official written notice was received from the Overlord by all concerned parties on the date of 9/15 at approximately 9:30 by the Eastern clock. Any Baron who had declared him or herself Loyal, or had not yet declared his or her alignment as of that time are considered Banished to Renegade and hold the right to immediate challenge. All Barons who had declared themselves Renegade before this time are aligned by personal choice, and so have the
right to challenge as per a standard Challenge by a Renegade to the Overlord.
Additionally, I will state than any Banished Baron wishing to utilize his or her right to challenge must make his or her challenge and have it ratified by the Standings Keeper before the Overlord's match with Sartan. This is a ruling based upon my sole discretion; make of it what you will.
I will post notice of my ruling on this matter on the corkboard.
Turienal Lodrelhai Castle
Assistant Supervisor, Historian
Duel of Swords
((AOL Community Leader Volunteer))
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 19 Sep 2000 01:47:35 EDT
And I disagree with this ruling.
You cannot change the alignment of Barons who have no alignment.
If any of the Barons present declared an alignment, then yes, the Overlord was within his rights to banish them to Renegade.
However, for those who had not declared an alignment, the Overlord overstepped his bounds by declaring their ranks for them.
Nowhere does it state that the Overlord has the right to deny a Baron their right to delcare an alignment upon ascending the throne.
It does, however, state that the Overlord can Align a Baron after One Week if no alignment is given by that Baron.
By choosing this course of saying Daegarth had the right to set the alignment of the Barons who had not yet chosen, or even knew the outcome of that match, you deny them their rights and make a Very Wrong Choice.
G
Date: 19 Sep 2000 01:47:35 EDT
And I disagree with this ruling.
You cannot change the alignment of Barons who have no alignment.
If any of the Barons present declared an alignment, then yes, the Overlord was within his rights to banish them to Renegade.
However, for those who had not declared an alignment, the Overlord overstepped his bounds by declaring their ranks for them.
Nowhere does it state that the Overlord has the right to deny a Baron their right to delcare an alignment upon ascending the throne.
It does, however, state that the Overlord can Align a Baron after One Week if no alignment is given by that Baron.
By choosing this course of saying Daegarth had the right to set the alignment of the Barons who had not yet chosen, or even knew the outcome of that match, you deny them their rights and make a Very Wrong Choice.
G
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 19 Sep 2000 04:47:17 EDT
G'nort...
I agree with you completely. However, I must bow to the ruling given by the Assistant Supervisor.
Until such time as she changes this ruling, Valentine overrules this ruling, or some future Supervisor overrules this ruling... it is now the official stance of the Duel of Swords.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
Date: 19 Sep 2000 04:47:17 EDT
G'nort...
I agree with you completely. However, I must bow to the ruling given by the Assistant Supervisor.
Until such time as she changes this ruling, Valentine overrules this ruling, or some future Supervisor overrules this ruling... it is now the official stance of the Duel of Swords.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 19 Sep 2000 12:59:16 EDT
> However, for those who had not declared an alignment,
> the Overlord overstepped his bounds by declaring their
> ranks for them.
Baron A hasn't declared yet, Baron B has declared loyal. Overlord C makes both of them renegade. In both of their cases the Overlord has just declared their alignments for them... It's hardly overstepping his bounds.
When an Overlord says "All Barons under me shall be renegade" it makes no difference what alignment the Baron would prefer. You are championing a right that is meaningless (and arguably not a "right" at all, but that's another argument).
Of what benefit is the initial claim of loyalty? So long as their right to challenge for banishment is not stripped (which wisely it hasn't been) then they have lost nothing at all.
For all the complaints about how bad the politics have gotten in the arena, I simply can't understand how anyone would champion such a meaninless thing as this. No matter what a Baron might want to claim, the result is the same.. they are now renegade. Why must we wait an extra couple days for them all to declare when the declarations will simply be ignored?
~Kal
Date: 19 Sep 2000 12:59:16 EDT
> However, for those who had not declared an alignment,
> the Overlord overstepped his bounds by declaring their
> ranks for them.
Baron A hasn't declared yet, Baron B has declared loyal. Overlord C makes both of them renegade. In both of their cases the Overlord has just declared their alignments for them... It's hardly overstepping his bounds.
When an Overlord says "All Barons under me shall be renegade" it makes no difference what alignment the Baron would prefer. You are championing a right that is meaningless (and arguably not a "right" at all, but that's another argument).
Of what benefit is the initial claim of loyalty? So long as their right to challenge for banishment is not stripped (which wisely it hasn't been) then they have lost nothing at all.
For all the complaints about how bad the politics have gotten in the arena, I simply can't understand how anyone would champion such a meaninless thing as this. No matter what a Baron might want to claim, the result is the same.. they are now renegade. Why must we wait an extra couple days for them all to declare when the declarations will simply be ignored?
~Kal
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From: darylkyle@aol.com (Daryl Kyle)
Date: 19 Sep 2000 13:35:25 EDT
I think the argument comes not with Daegarth declaring everyone renegade before they even have thier right to declare such....I think its more about ther ever-constant disregard for the rules of the sport that have been showing in the recent past. Once more we have to bow down to a person that bends the rules such as Turi did. Again and again these rules are broken yet the perpitraters are happy for that....they got
away with it and the ones that were transended against are punished. I can recall on many occations there being arguments like this. Those rules said that the baron/baroness chooses thier initial alignment after that....the overlord can banish or allow as many Loyals or Renegades that he wishes...From Dae banishing everyone to renegade before any declared an alignment I say this....Barons choose their own alignment in the beginning...hence
they get thier choose...if Dae wishes to banish to renagade fine and let the entire council fight over that title.
Daryl Kyle
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Former Baron of the 6th Baronial Ring
Knight of Paladine
Date: 19 Sep 2000 13:35:25 EDT
I think the argument comes not with Daegarth declaring everyone renegade before they even have thier right to declare such....I think its more about ther ever-constant disregard for the rules of the sport that have been showing in the recent past. Once more we have to bow down to a person that bends the rules such as Turi did. Again and again these rules are broken yet the perpitraters are happy for that....they got
away with it and the ones that were transended against are punished. I can recall on many occations there being arguments like this. Those rules said that the baron/baroness chooses thier initial alignment after that....the overlord can banish or allow as many Loyals or Renegades that he wishes...From Dae banishing everyone to renegade before any declared an alignment I say this....Barons choose their own alignment in the beginning...hence
they get thier choose...if Dae wishes to banish to renagade fine and let the entire council fight over that title.
Daryl Kyle
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Former Baron of the 6th Baronial Ring
Knight of Paladine
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 19 Sep 2000 14:54:27 EDT
Turi is accomodating for all barons who had declared his alignment beforehand. Therefore, if someone had aligned loyal before Daegarth wrote his banishment, then they have the immediate right of challenge.
Who does this hurt the most? The barons who knew Daegarth was going to realign all to renegade and decided to align loyal just so he could get the first shot at the crown. It also hurts those who wish to exercise their right as a baron to declare alignment, yet it is also Daegarth's right to realign all barons to renegade.
What Daegarth did that was so wrong, morally, is that he did not give the Barons the courtesy to declare alignment. I guess it was his way of protecting himself from having a horde of barons declare loyalty just to challenge him when he realigns them.
It seems with Turi's ruling that at the current time, a Baron may declare alignment before the Overlord banishes him as long as the baron declares the alignment before the Overlord puts his banishment to paper. That sounds fair enough, it's just a matter of who gets there first, like with a normal challenge.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Date: 19 Sep 2000 14:54:27 EDT
Turi is accomodating for all barons who had declared his alignment beforehand. Therefore, if someone had aligned loyal before Daegarth wrote his banishment, then they have the immediate right of challenge.
Who does this hurt the most? The barons who knew Daegarth was going to realign all to renegade and decided to align loyal just so he could get the first shot at the crown. It also hurts those who wish to exercise their right as a baron to declare alignment, yet it is also Daegarth's right to realign all barons to renegade.
What Daegarth did that was so wrong, morally, is that he did not give the Barons the courtesy to declare alignment. I guess it was his way of protecting himself from having a horde of barons declare loyalty just to challenge him when he realigns them.
It seems with Turi's ruling that at the current time, a Baron may declare alignment before the Overlord banishes him as long as the baron declares the alignment before the Overlord puts his banishment to paper. That sounds fair enough, it's just a matter of who gets there first, like with a normal challenge.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband