From: lordovdale@aol.com (LordovDale)
Date: 14 Jul 2002 12:13:04 EDT
To the Community at Large,
The challenge between Baron Ganderfald and myself will take place on Thursday, the 18th day of the month of July, at 10 in the evening by the eastern clock in the basemenet annex of the arena. A caller is yet to be arranged, as the Baron has chosen to overrule the one I had initially chosen for the affair. However, once one is procured I shall be sure to inform the public.
As always, I shall duel under the silver and black of the Oldest House. Baron Sartan will stand as my second, and my lady of honor will be Elle McBride.
I anticipate the match will be an exciting affair, and I encourage you all to attend.
sincerely,
Lord Dalamar Ar'Daumon
Overlord Challenge
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From: thedruidmarzan@aol.com (The Druid Marzan)
Date: 15 Jul 2002 00:11:28 EDT
Did I miss something? When is Cletus planning on posting this challenge for the community?
Date: 15 Jul 2002 00:11:28 EDT
Did I miss something? When is Cletus planning on posting this challenge for the community?
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From: verceterixfavre@aol.com (Verceterix Favre)
Date: 15 Jul 2002 01:35:53 EDT
You missed something.
-Rix
Date: 15 Jul 2002 01:35:53 EDT
You missed something.
-Rix
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From: thedruidmarzan@aol.com (The Druid Marzan)
Date: 15 Jul 2002 07:39:57 EDT
Rix: You missed something.
So did you when you challenged me.
And ye promised loyalty of ye lost.
Date: 15 Jul 2002 07:39:57 EDT
Rix: You missed something.
So did you when you challenged me.
And ye promised loyalty of ye lost.
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From: novagreys@aol.com (Nova GreyS)
Date: 15 Jul 2002 17:39:25 EDT
A big red arrow is now drawn across the corkboard, circling first Marzan's question and pointing straight to a few words written by Cletus beneath Marzan's statement of intent to challenge.
Those words read:
"I don't.
I challenged.
Cletus"
Date: 15 Jul 2002 17:39:25 EDT
A big red arrow is now drawn across the corkboard, circling first Marzan's question and pointing straight to a few words written by Cletus beneath Marzan's statement of intent to challenge.
Those words read:
"I don't.
I challenged.
Cletus"
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From: thedruidmarzan@aol.com (The Druid Marzan)
Date: 16 Jul 2002 00:09:18 EDT
As usual, a member of the debate club misses my whole point, and cleverly thinks they are refuting it. Nova, I am fully aware that he said that. My point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that he did not bother to post a formal challenge. Albeit, he does not need to, but I think it is traditional and polite to do so. Nice try, though.
Date: 16 Jul 2002 00:09:18 EDT
As usual, a member of the debate club misses my whole point, and cleverly thinks they are refuting it. Nova, I am fully aware that he said that. My point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that he did not bother to post a formal challenge. Albeit, he does not need to, but I think it is traditional and polite to do so. Nice try, though.
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From: verceterixfavre@aol.com (Verceterix Favre)
Date: 16 Jul 2002 00:19:22 EDT
You have a crappy way of making points. Plus, guess what, I lied to you way back then because I would have done anything to get rid of you as Overlord.
-Rix
PS. You're also worse off than I thought if you think people are actually going to buy that explanation for you totally missing Cletus posting his challenge.
Date: 16 Jul 2002 00:19:22 EDT
You have a crappy way of making points. Plus, guess what, I lied to you way back then because I would have done anything to get rid of you as Overlord.
-Rix
PS. You're also worse off than I thought if you think people are actually going to buy that explanation for you totally missing Cletus posting his challenge.
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From: thedruidmarzan@aol.com (The Druid Marzan)
Date: 16 Jul 2002 00:49:24 EDT
It's amazing what getting schooled in a challenge can do to a person, eh Rix?
Date: 16 Jul 2002 00:49:24 EDT
It's amazing what getting schooled in a challenge can do to a person, eh Rix?
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From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 16 Jul 2002 04:41:52 EDT
>>
It's amazing what getting schooled in a challenge can do to a person, eh Rix?<<
Eros,
I do believe that the topic of posting a challenge announcement came up recently. Elijah was the one who posed the question of why an annoucement had not been posted regarding the challenge from Malhavoc Shadowlord to Vawn Martuhn with the Seventh at stake.
Anyone is welcome to correct me on the matter, but I do believe that Eljiah was told that while it is traditional to post a challenge notice on the cork it is not required. The only requirements for notification of challenges outside the challenger and Baron (or Overlord) bring challenged is the Standings Keeper. As I recall tradition includes members of the Baron's Council, but the rules do not.
Now, if I am mistaken in facts, Eros, please feel free to show me exactly what you were attempting to teach Rix since all you have succeeded in doing with your comments is cause a few brows and tempers to rise.
Yes, I did note that you said, " My point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that he did not bother to post a formal challenge. Albeit, he does not need to, but I think it is traditional and polite to do so." My point being an announcement of the challenge was posted by Dalamar. In my humble opinion, all we are dealing with is sour grapes because Cletus beat you to the punch.
Colleen
Date: 16 Jul 2002 04:41:52 EDT
>>
It's amazing what getting schooled in a challenge can do to a person, eh Rix?<<
Eros,
I do believe that the topic of posting a challenge announcement came up recently. Elijah was the one who posed the question of why an annoucement had not been posted regarding the challenge from Malhavoc Shadowlord to Vawn Martuhn with the Seventh at stake.
Anyone is welcome to correct me on the matter, but I do believe that Eljiah was told that while it is traditional to post a challenge notice on the cork it is not required. The only requirements for notification of challenges outside the challenger and Baron (or Overlord) bring challenged is the Standings Keeper. As I recall tradition includes members of the Baron's Council, but the rules do not.
Now, if I am mistaken in facts, Eros, please feel free to show me exactly what you were attempting to teach Rix since all you have succeeded in doing with your comments is cause a few brows and tempers to rise.
Yes, I did note that you said, " My point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that he did not bother to post a formal challenge. Albeit, he does not need to, but I think it is traditional and polite to do so." My point being an announcement of the challenge was posted by Dalamar. In my humble opinion, all we are dealing with is sour grapes because Cletus beat you to the punch.
Colleen
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From: thedruidmarzan@aol.com (The Druid Marzan)
Date: 16 Jul 2002 06:50:40 EDT
My dear Colleen,
I agree with everything you said. My point was that I was saddened at the lack of tradition. As to Rix, he insulted me. I insulted him back.
Date: 16 Jul 2002 06:50:40 EDT
My dear Colleen,
I agree with everything you said. My point was that I was saddened at the lack of tradition. As to Rix, he insulted me. I insulted him back.
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From: cassiusmaxim@aol.com (Cassius Maxim)
Date: 16 Jul 2002 12:54:24 EDT
"My dear Colleen,
I agree with everything you said. My point was that I was saddened at the
lack of tradition. As to Rix, he insulted me. I insulted him back."
First off, the Druid has a point in that it was once tradition to allow an Overlord that one respects a week or two between challenges before issuing one's own challenge. For evidence, I refer to a period in late 1997 A.D., during the early portion of Dalamar's first reign. Draven Altruis issued challenge to Dalamar the day after his successful defense against Huma Dragonbane. Dal was, by all sources, incensed, and when Draven's challenge came, the
challenger was tested. Dal's next challenge was an example of the exact opposite way of thinking. Nova Grey Shadow challenged, but waited two weeks, out of respect.
I'm not going to say whether or not Cletus respects Dalamar, but the evidence seems to be that at the very least, he doesn't respect him as much as Nova did/does. I feel a bit more at liberty to say that he certainly doesn't like Dalamar. I find fault with him on this, but I certainly understand his way of thinking. One can argue all they want that Cletus's challenge to Dalamar when Marzan had announced his intention to challenge was disrespectful,
but one cannot argue that it wasn't *smart*. And in the real world, smarts get you farther than honor.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Date: 16 Jul 2002 12:54:24 EDT
"My dear Colleen,
I agree with everything you said. My point was that I was saddened at the
lack of tradition. As to Rix, he insulted me. I insulted him back."
First off, the Druid has a point in that it was once tradition to allow an Overlord that one respects a week or two between challenges before issuing one's own challenge. For evidence, I refer to a period in late 1997 A.D., during the early portion of Dalamar's first reign. Draven Altruis issued challenge to Dalamar the day after his successful defense against Huma Dragonbane. Dal was, by all sources, incensed, and when Draven's challenge came, the
challenger was tested. Dal's next challenge was an example of the exact opposite way of thinking. Nova Grey Shadow challenged, but waited two weeks, out of respect.
I'm not going to say whether or not Cletus respects Dalamar, but the evidence seems to be that at the very least, he doesn't respect him as much as Nova did/does. I feel a bit more at liberty to say that he certainly doesn't like Dalamar. I find fault with him on this, but I certainly understand his way of thinking. One can argue all they want that Cletus's challenge to Dalamar when Marzan had announced his intention to challenge was disrespectful,
but one cannot argue that it wasn't *smart*. And in the real world, smarts get you farther than honor.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 16 Jul 2002 14:32:47 EDT
"First off, the Druid has a point in that it was once tradition to allow an Overlord that one respects a week or two between challenges before issuing one's own challenge. For evidence, I refer to a period in late 1997 A.D., during the early portion of Dalamar's first reign. Draven Altruis issued challenge to Dalamar the day after his successful defense against Huma Dragonbane.
Dal was, by all sources, incensed, and when Draven's challenge came, the
challenger was tested. Dal's next challenge was an example of the exact opposite way of thinking. Nova Grey Shadow challenged, but waited two weeks, out of respect."
Let's not mix tradition and respect, because they are two different issues. It is like bowing to your opponent; you do it as a sign of respect. You don't do it just because the people before you did it.
And just because Dalamar was irate at not being given at least a week grace period, does not make it a tradition to give someone a week's rest. Otherwise I would suggest to Dalamar that he gets angry about his opponent trying his best: that way, we could make it a tradition challenges to the Overlord include the challenging duelist giving a half-hearted attempt.
The truth is, the only thing the Draven issue brought up was some politicking when Cletus did the same thing a couple years ago, when he challenged Dalamar one day after he won the challenge. What Draven could have done, Cletus could not, and as a result, the pending challenge results had to be posted on the boards before anyone else could challenge. This reinforced the RULE that Overlords could not have a que of challenge.
But that rule had a loophole during the next Overlord's reign, that of Marzan's. Warlord Eric Siadek won the right to an intercession free challenge to the Overlord. However, during that 28 day grace period where nobody else can issue challenge to the Overlord, Baron Adonai Uziel was banished to Renegade by Marzan, and he exercised his right to immediate challenge to Marzan; so we have an Overlord with a que of challenge.
The point of this history lesson? Don't use tradition as a tool. Be ticked that someone beat you to the punch, sure... just don't be ticked in the name of tradition, because as far as I know, the only people who use that as a tool anymore are the people who don't know what they're talking about.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Date: 16 Jul 2002 14:32:47 EDT
"First off, the Druid has a point in that it was once tradition to allow an Overlord that one respects a week or two between challenges before issuing one's own challenge. For evidence, I refer to a period in late 1997 A.D., during the early portion of Dalamar's first reign. Draven Altruis issued challenge to Dalamar the day after his successful defense against Huma Dragonbane.
Dal was, by all sources, incensed, and when Draven's challenge came, the
challenger was tested. Dal's next challenge was an example of the exact opposite way of thinking. Nova Grey Shadow challenged, but waited two weeks, out of respect."
Let's not mix tradition and respect, because they are two different issues. It is like bowing to your opponent; you do it as a sign of respect. You don't do it just because the people before you did it.
And just because Dalamar was irate at not being given at least a week grace period, does not make it a tradition to give someone a week's rest. Otherwise I would suggest to Dalamar that he gets angry about his opponent trying his best: that way, we could make it a tradition challenges to the Overlord include the challenging duelist giving a half-hearted attempt.
The truth is, the only thing the Draven issue brought up was some politicking when Cletus did the same thing a couple years ago, when he challenged Dalamar one day after he won the challenge. What Draven could have done, Cletus could not, and as a result, the pending challenge results had to be posted on the boards before anyone else could challenge. This reinforced the RULE that Overlords could not have a que of challenge.
But that rule had a loophole during the next Overlord's reign, that of Marzan's. Warlord Eric Siadek won the right to an intercession free challenge to the Overlord. However, during that 28 day grace period where nobody else can issue challenge to the Overlord, Baron Adonai Uziel was banished to Renegade by Marzan, and he exercised his right to immediate challenge to Marzan; so we have an Overlord with a que of challenge.
The point of this history lesson? Don't use tradition as a tool. Be ticked that someone beat you to the punch, sure... just don't be ticked in the name of tradition, because as far as I know, the only people who use that as a tool anymore are the people who don't know what they're talking about.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
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From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 16 Jul 2002 14:53:38 EDT
>>First off, the Druid has a point in that it was once tradition to allow an Overlord that one respects a week or two between challenges before issuing one's own challenge.<<
Actually, it is until the next standings are posted that the Overlord is safe.
>>Draven Altruis issued challenge to Dalamar the day after his successful defense against Huma Dragonbane. Dal was, by all sources, incensed, and when Draven's challenge came, the
challenger was tested.<<
Cas,
This is a subject I'm all too aware of and part of it the community has never known. Older members of Swords community might remember that I was seeing Draven at the time. People can say what they will about him, but by remaining silent on private matters, he protected me and took the full responsiblity. His premature sending of the challenge notice was due to a misreading of a rule was my error as well as his. By the time it was discovered, it was
too late to recall the messenger and Dal had the letter of challenge in hand.
Draven is gone and I am far wiser now, but there you have it. Those of you that asked why I had stayed with him until not long before he disappeared ... his action in that matter should tell you about the man I knew that most of you never saw.
As far as the test, that's not why. An agreement between Dal and Valmion of Questrion had been struck that Draven would not be tested. Draven, however, left Questrion's dueling team and as its land's Knight Marshall. The agreement between Dal and Valmion was in some manner declared null and void because Valmion was no longer Draven's lord nor was he bound to protect one that had abandoned his team. The problem was, neither informed Draven that there
were strings attached to the agreement, only that he would not be tested. When we arrived on the battlefield that night, that is when he learned the agreement had been broken. I do not know whether is was up to Dal or Valmion to deliver that news, but neither did beforehand. Draven found out when it was announced Ellisa Morgan would be testing him.
Collie
Date: 16 Jul 2002 14:53:38 EDT
>>First off, the Druid has a point in that it was once tradition to allow an Overlord that one respects a week or two between challenges before issuing one's own challenge.<<
Actually, it is until the next standings are posted that the Overlord is safe.
>>Draven Altruis issued challenge to Dalamar the day after his successful defense against Huma Dragonbane. Dal was, by all sources, incensed, and when Draven's challenge came, the
challenger was tested.<<
Cas,
This is a subject I'm all too aware of and part of it the community has never known. Older members of Swords community might remember that I was seeing Draven at the time. People can say what they will about him, but by remaining silent on private matters, he protected me and took the full responsiblity. His premature sending of the challenge notice was due to a misreading of a rule was my error as well as his. By the time it was discovered, it was
too late to recall the messenger and Dal had the letter of challenge in hand.
Draven is gone and I am far wiser now, but there you have it. Those of you that asked why I had stayed with him until not long before he disappeared ... his action in that matter should tell you about the man I knew that most of you never saw.
As far as the test, that's not why. An agreement between Dal and Valmion of Questrion had been struck that Draven would not be tested. Draven, however, left Questrion's dueling team and as its land's Knight Marshall. The agreement between Dal and Valmion was in some manner declared null and void because Valmion was no longer Draven's lord nor was he bound to protect one that had abandoned his team. The problem was, neither informed Draven that there
were strings attached to the agreement, only that he would not be tested. When we arrived on the battlefield that night, that is when he learned the agreement had been broken. I do not know whether is was up to Dal or Valmion to deliver that news, but neither did beforehand. Draven found out when it was announced Ellisa Morgan would be testing him.
Collie
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From: novagreys@aol.com (Nova GreyS)
Date: 16 Jul 2002 17:35:22 EDT
You never did have much in the way of brains when your temper and ego gets in the way, Marzan. Perhaps you'd like a formal challenge to include a gala parade, signs and whistles, and Cletus holding a press conference to scream to the heavens that he challenged. The fact of the matter is, his announcement was about as formal as people get nowadays. I once again refer you to it
with all due formality. ((the red line is now scribbled over and highlighted with blue))
It's obvious you've got a real problem with Dalamar - a problem that rests in your own ego and mind. He's not a great man, or a great Overlord, he's simply a fighter like the rest of us. You're detached from the reality of this sport we're taking part in and seeing things only in the matter of how they relate to YOU and no other. Make no mistake, it's still a sport. As much as we've loved to fluff it up with loyals and renegades and "you did this
and now I have a political grudge", it is still what it always was. A sport. And a bloody one at that.
In sport there is always a loser. And sometimes, the winner doesn't really win. A title will not see you remembered fondly, nor will an honorable stance if you are not true to it. Never display honor for others, they will not follow your ideals - only display honor if that is your true life. You've played the insult game in mean spirit, you've sought to belittle people, you've demanded answers for perceived infractions that you are incapable of
separating yourself from because you see only what has happened to you. I wonder if you waited to challenge out of honor or because you wanted others to think you were respectful. I don't really care to have an answer, regardless of what it may be. Frankly, it is none of my business. But I think, perhaps, it would do you well to sit down and think about what is outside the realm of Marzan the druid.
Either way, we'll save you a seat on the "crying of days gone by" bench at the old folks' home, though it's getting a little crowded.
The day has changed but the egos remain the same,
Nova Grey Shadow
Seat 8
Date: 16 Jul 2002 17:35:22 EDT
You never did have much in the way of brains when your temper and ego gets in the way, Marzan. Perhaps you'd like a formal challenge to include a gala parade, signs and whistles, and Cletus holding a press conference to scream to the heavens that he challenged. The fact of the matter is, his announcement was about as formal as people get nowadays. I once again refer you to it
with all due formality. ((the red line is now scribbled over and highlighted with blue))
It's obvious you've got a real problem with Dalamar - a problem that rests in your own ego and mind. He's not a great man, or a great Overlord, he's simply a fighter like the rest of us. You're detached from the reality of this sport we're taking part in and seeing things only in the matter of how they relate to YOU and no other. Make no mistake, it's still a sport. As much as we've loved to fluff it up with loyals and renegades and "you did this
and now I have a political grudge", it is still what it always was. A sport. And a bloody one at that.
In sport there is always a loser. And sometimes, the winner doesn't really win. A title will not see you remembered fondly, nor will an honorable stance if you are not true to it. Never display honor for others, they will not follow your ideals - only display honor if that is your true life. You've played the insult game in mean spirit, you've sought to belittle people, you've demanded answers for perceived infractions that you are incapable of
separating yourself from because you see only what has happened to you. I wonder if you waited to challenge out of honor or because you wanted others to think you were respectful. I don't really care to have an answer, regardless of what it may be. Frankly, it is none of my business. But I think, perhaps, it would do you well to sit down and think about what is outside the realm of Marzan the druid.
Either way, we'll save you a seat on the "crying of days gone by" bench at the old folks' home, though it's getting a little crowded.
The day has changed but the egos remain the same,
Nova Grey Shadow
Seat 8
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From: thedruidmarzan@aol.com (The Druid Marzan)
Date: 16 Jul 2002 18:06:46 EDT
You've played the insult game in mean spirit, you've sought to belittle people
::dies laughing:: You of all people should say that! Give me a break. If I insult someone back who insults me for no good reason, that is my prerogative. As we all know there is little clique of Baron types who spend all their time insulting, criticizing and belittling. People are so used to it, that when that someone actually reacts and insults them back, everyone is dumbfounded. The hostility level here indicates there is more to the situation
that meets the eye, and I suspect for many it is frustration over lopsided challenge defeats. It's this simple...read carefully. These are the two points I was making. There was no absolutely no reason for the insult fest to begin, which I did not start.
1) I was disapointed over a lack of formal challenge. I expressed that. Big deal.
2)I expressed my opinion that it was good manners to wait a week or two.
These are pretty basic issues, and not worthy of the hostile reaction of the Miserable Club.
Did anyone even notice Rix' rant? Or is that pardoned since he is part of the club. There should be no double standard. If you disrespect me, I will disrespect you back, and you will get more than you give. If you are going to dish it out, then don't cry and try to make your intended victim the villain.
Finally, insofar as Cletus challenging and "beating me to the punch" that's way off base. I could care less if he challenges first. It gives me more time for much needed rest and to prepare for the challenge. In my opinion, Cletus has about as much chance of winning as Elijah winning "The most congenial" award. Ok, Lackeys, pick apart and analyze away!
Date: 16 Jul 2002 18:06:46 EDT
You've played the insult game in mean spirit, you've sought to belittle people
::dies laughing:: You of all people should say that! Give me a break. If I insult someone back who insults me for no good reason, that is my prerogative. As we all know there is little clique of Baron types who spend all their time insulting, criticizing and belittling. People are so used to it, that when that someone actually reacts and insults them back, everyone is dumbfounded. The hostility level here indicates there is more to the situation
that meets the eye, and I suspect for many it is frustration over lopsided challenge defeats. It's this simple...read carefully. These are the two points I was making. There was no absolutely no reason for the insult fest to begin, which I did not start.
1) I was disapointed over a lack of formal challenge. I expressed that. Big deal.
2)I expressed my opinion that it was good manners to wait a week or two.
These are pretty basic issues, and not worthy of the hostile reaction of the Miserable Club.
Did anyone even notice Rix' rant? Or is that pardoned since he is part of the club. There should be no double standard. If you disrespect me, I will disrespect you back, and you will get more than you give. If you are going to dish it out, then don't cry and try to make your intended victim the villain.
Finally, insofar as Cletus challenging and "beating me to the punch" that's way off base. I could care less if he challenges first. It gives me more time for much needed rest and to prepare for the challenge. In my opinion, Cletus has about as much chance of winning as Elijah winning "The most congenial" award. Ok, Lackeys, pick apart and analyze away!