From: darkaxe@aol.com (Dark Axe)
Date: 17 Jan 1998 02:21:09 EST
I am, perhaps, the senior active member of DoS today. This is not a claim or title I take lightly. It was more than 6 years ago that I fought my first duel here and I think I have earned the right to speak to the DoS Community on certain matters.
Throughout my life in RhyDin as a dueler, respect has been the one constant. I have been well-liked, disliked, loved, hated, cheered, jeered, and even canonized for my life and somewhat dubious achievements here. However, though the attitudes of DoS members toward me may best be described as vicissitudinal, I have always felt respected.
I do not feel respected anymore. It is not the recent turmoil over my defection to renegade which has caused my feelings, either. Not the angry glares I've received at my challenge defenses, nor the cold stares in the Arena.
The reason I do not feel respected anymore is that experience just doesn't seem to be valued anymore the way it used to be. In the past few weeks, I've watched several new warlords challenge within a week of their receiving the title and the necessary peer wins. To be honest, seeing that sort of spectacle just makes me sick to my stomach.
And I feel that naming names would just be unfair to those I name because the atmosphere of disrespect for tradition and experience has been maintained for months now.
I ask new warlords this question: what does holding a baron's ring or being the overlord mean to you? I ask you to think seriously and honestly answer this question at least to yourself. If your answer is fame and validation of skill, then you will have challenged for the wrong reasons and missed the whole point of being a baron or being the overlord.
To me, being a baron or even more, being the overlord, means being an important person. It means being a person whose presence commands respect and who is really a role-model for aspiring duelists. How can a one-week old warlord understand the tradition, experience, and respect involved in holding a title?
To be a truly great title holder, one must not only be a great duelist, and I think that this is the point most are missing. Hell, if we really think about it, dueling is mostly luck anyway, so what are we left with? We're left with a great sport whose title holders are not only great duelists, but also great men. I may not agree with Dalamar's opinions on testing and tests, but I sure as hell know he's not only a great duelist, but a man worthy
of holding the overlordship who has commanded both my respect and friendship for as long as I've known him. (And to be honest, recent events have shown me more and more why tests might be necessary.)
I speak to you, the new warlords of DoS, whomever you might be. Listen if you choose.
I ask that you wait before challenging. Wait so that you may try to understand the years of tradition that has gone into making DoS a great place. I ask that you consider your reasons for challenging carefully before doing so. If you are challenging only for selfish delusions of grandeur and a desire for glory, than you do ill-justice to the rings you hope to serve and you malign the very nature of DoS itself which is founded on respect.
If there is one lesson to be learned, it is respect. Think about respect, for experience and tradition, the next time you enter the ring and salute your opponent and your caller. For what better way to understand the principles of an economy of respect than to duel and bask in the warm glow of the mutual respect between a dueler and his opponent.
Ulath Fici
Third Baron of DoS
Respect - or lack thereof.
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 17 Jan 1998 06:37:03 EST
Lord ni Fici~
Though I might, in my more argumentative states, quibble with minor points, on the whole your words ring clear and true.
If the masses truly wish this sport to remain - not become, I note, as I feel that with few exceptions the damage is already done - nothing more than a brutal, gladiatorial climb to the top of a hill, then so be it - let's do away utterly with any pretense that history, tradition, and respect have any meaning at all. If not, then let's see some action to change that.
I am not fool enough to say that the old days were always a grand pageant of respect and tradition. But then, there was little history on which to build a tradition until a short time before my arrival in these rings. However, for a long, long period, from before I began to participate in this sport, until after I returned to take my third ring, that tradition and respect are what ruled this sport, and what made it great.
Certainly the Overlord, and most of the Barons, do what they might to carry on this great tradition - but there is an unsettling avalanche of duelers who have the gall to expect that they deserve the accolades of title before their peers even recognize their faces as they enter the arena. I am not suggesting that there is no place for the sudden prodigy who takes the rings by storm - but there are limits.
With a sense of painful dismay, I remain,
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Prince Consort, New Mountainside
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords, retired
Date: 17 Jan 1998 06:37:03 EST
Lord ni Fici~
Though I might, in my more argumentative states, quibble with minor points, on the whole your words ring clear and true.
If the masses truly wish this sport to remain - not become, I note, as I feel that with few exceptions the damage is already done - nothing more than a brutal, gladiatorial climb to the top of a hill, then so be it - let's do away utterly with any pretense that history, tradition, and respect have any meaning at all. If not, then let's see some action to change that.
I am not fool enough to say that the old days were always a grand pageant of respect and tradition. But then, there was little history on which to build a tradition until a short time before my arrival in these rings. However, for a long, long period, from before I began to participate in this sport, until after I returned to take my third ring, that tradition and respect are what ruled this sport, and what made it great.
Certainly the Overlord, and most of the Barons, do what they might to carry on this great tradition - but there is an unsettling avalanche of duelers who have the gall to expect that they deserve the accolades of title before their peers even recognize their faces as they enter the arena. I am not suggesting that there is no place for the sudden prodigy who takes the rings by storm - but there are limits.
With a sense of painful dismay, I remain,
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Prince Consort, New Mountainside
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords, retired
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From: ellisamrgn@aol.com (EllisaMrgn)
Date: 17 Jan 1998 08:37:13 EST
::Whispers softly:: Or great women...
Date: 17 Jan 1998 08:37:13 EST
::Whispers softly:: Or great women...
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From: foxxgrrl@aol.com (Foxxgrrl)
Date: 17 Jan 1998 11:23:14 EST
Once again, those who have been around seemingly forever have decided to lend their wisdom to the Arena. I'm not arguing that they've seen more, fought more, and possibly achieved more than duelers who have been around only a few months. I've been dueling just over a year now and I still feel like a rookie. I'm back at the rank of Commoner again, which I think is, overall, a good thing.
There's so many parts of the Duel of Swords that a new dueler just can't appreciate. Relationships from dueler to dueler are always affected by past actions, many of which I don't know, but like trying to pick up.
But it has to be respect that is the issue at the bottom of all of this. People can lurk around the Arena for years, dueling, and when they finally get the peerwins they need, challenge within a week and show less respect than a rising star dueler who sees someone they think needs to be challenged and wants to take care of it themselves as soon as possible. Sure, it's nice to tell stories of great duelers, past and present, who could clearly
challenge at any point and choose not to do so. And, gods willing, when I am able to challenge, I'll need a reason better than "well, I reached my 10th peer win tonight." But I don't think the belief that you need to be around for X amount of time before challenging has any merit. It's a matter of respect that differs from individual to individual.
~Ally St. Reynolds
Date: 17 Jan 1998 11:23:14 EST
Once again, those who have been around seemingly forever have decided to lend their wisdom to the Arena. I'm not arguing that they've seen more, fought more, and possibly achieved more than duelers who have been around only a few months. I've been dueling just over a year now and I still feel like a rookie. I'm back at the rank of Commoner again, which I think is, overall, a good thing.
There's so many parts of the Duel of Swords that a new dueler just can't appreciate. Relationships from dueler to dueler are always affected by past actions, many of which I don't know, but like trying to pick up.
But it has to be respect that is the issue at the bottom of all of this. People can lurk around the Arena for years, dueling, and when they finally get the peerwins they need, challenge within a week and show less respect than a rising star dueler who sees someone they think needs to be challenged and wants to take care of it themselves as soon as possible. Sure, it's nice to tell stories of great duelers, past and present, who could clearly
challenge at any point and choose not to do so. And, gods willing, when I am able to challenge, I'll need a reason better than "well, I reached my 10th peer win tonight." But I don't think the belief that you need to be around for X amount of time before challenging has any merit. It's a matter of respect that differs from individual to individual.
~Ally St. Reynolds
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 17 Jan 1998 18:01:27 EST
Lady St. Reynolds~
You are correct that the idea that you must be around "x" amount of time holds no merit.
What is being argued here is that one must - within themselves - be certain that they know enough about the nature of the sport and the personalities therein that should they win, they will fill the position with competence outside the ring as well as within.
When challenge is issued merely because it appears to be an expected step for one who has accumulated ten wins over their peers... when one issues challenge to a Baroness, calling her a male... when challenge is issued without even the courtesy of a personal note to the challenged... it degrades the entire institution.
~irm
Date: 17 Jan 1998 18:01:27 EST
Lady St. Reynolds~
You are correct that the idea that you must be around "x" amount of time holds no merit.
What is being argued here is that one must - within themselves - be certain that they know enough about the nature of the sport and the personalities therein that should they win, they will fill the position with competence outside the ring as well as within.
When challenge is issued merely because it appears to be an expected step for one who has accumulated ten wins over their peers... when one issues challenge to a Baroness, calling her a male... when challenge is issued without even the courtesy of a personal note to the challenged... it degrades the entire institution.
~irm
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From: foxxgrrl@aol.com (Foxxgrrl)
Date: 18 Jan 1998 13:31:34 EST
Lord Tynsadale-
The point I meant to make was that the amount of time served does not necessarily give one more respect for the Duel of Swords or more right to challenge or hold a ring. This argument is bound to come up time and time again, as it will in any organization along these lines. I for one am happy to see that the lines of "old-school" and "new-school" are less clearly drawn this time around, and also that, as far as I see, I'm the first to mention
the terms.
I've always thought it comes down to personality. Some people will feel that they need to wait before challenging, some will refuse to challenge unless they have a real problem with a ring holder, some will try to get a majority of whatever they stand for in the rings, and some will look at their peer wins and say "Oh, I have ten now? Someone hand me a sheet of paper and a list of Barons, I need to decide who to challenge." And every other
person loosely affiliated with the Arena will have a different opinion on this, an opinion that changes from duel to duel. Although my words may come back to haunt me, I dare say that the Arena patrons might not have had such a problem with Darkness2's challenge if it had not been to a DoS veteran like Ulath ni Fici.
On the other hand...as I've stated before, I still feel like a rookie, and if I was legally able to challenge now, I wouldn't feel I was actually ready. To quote you: "one must - within themselves - be certain that they know enough about the nature of the sport and the personalities therein that should they win, they will fill the position with competence outside the ring as well as within." I'd hate to set up
extensive rules, because for every rule there has to be an exception. But getting some of our unwritten rules in print---such as waiting until the standings come out before challenging---seems to be the only opportunity open.
~Ally St. Reynolds
Date: 18 Jan 1998 13:31:34 EST
Lord Tynsadale-
The point I meant to make was that the amount of time served does not necessarily give one more respect for the Duel of Swords or more right to challenge or hold a ring. This argument is bound to come up time and time again, as it will in any organization along these lines. I for one am happy to see that the lines of "old-school" and "new-school" are less clearly drawn this time around, and also that, as far as I see, I'm the first to mention
the terms.
I've always thought it comes down to personality. Some people will feel that they need to wait before challenging, some will refuse to challenge unless they have a real problem with a ring holder, some will try to get a majority of whatever they stand for in the rings, and some will look at their peer wins and say "Oh, I have ten now? Someone hand me a sheet of paper and a list of Barons, I need to decide who to challenge." And every other
person loosely affiliated with the Arena will have a different opinion on this, an opinion that changes from duel to duel. Although my words may come back to haunt me, I dare say that the Arena patrons might not have had such a problem with Darkness2's challenge if it had not been to a DoS veteran like Ulath ni Fici.
On the other hand...as I've stated before, I still feel like a rookie, and if I was legally able to challenge now, I wouldn't feel I was actually ready. To quote you: "one must - within themselves - be certain that they know enough about the nature of the sport and the personalities therein that should they win, they will fill the position with competence outside the ring as well as within." I'd hate to set up
extensive rules, because for every rule there has to be an exception. But getting some of our unwritten rules in print---such as waiting until the standings come out before challenging---seems to be the only opportunity open.
~Ally St. Reynolds
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From: dexmontoy@aol.com (Dex Montoy)
Date: 18 Jan 1998 16:43:39 EST
:: ponders ::
No, time itself cannot create respect. Many long standing members of the community do not share the same respect as others. However, I find it extremely difficult to respect one that I do not know whether they are rarely here or whether they are new. Time goes a long way to allowing others to see the qualities you hold that you may garner the respect from your character. You cannot respect one whose qualities you have not seen. It is for this reason
notable members of all ranks have gained respect. Because they have proved they hold the qualities that people respect. One might also notice respect comes at different levels. Respect for skill in the rings, respect for kindness, respect for honor, these are but a few. Not all will use the same criteria for respect. A friend of mine once commented as his thoughts of a Baron, to which i will, from memory, attempt to paraphrase:
"Lack of character will cause you to be challenged oft, lack of skill will cost you the ring."
I submit being a Baron of note requires at least one level of respect if you care to make your mark. Either gain respect from skill by those who value skill, or gain respect from character by those who value character.
I suppose the heart of my feelings stems from this. I myself only require one persons respect, my own, if i cannot duel well i am displeased. If i cannot look myself in the mirror as being honorable i am untrue to myself.
Dex Montoya
Loyal to RhyDin
Date: 18 Jan 1998 16:43:39 EST
:: ponders ::
No, time itself cannot create respect. Many long standing members of the community do not share the same respect as others. However, I find it extremely difficult to respect one that I do not know whether they are rarely here or whether they are new. Time goes a long way to allowing others to see the qualities you hold that you may garner the respect from your character. You cannot respect one whose qualities you have not seen. It is for this reason
notable members of all ranks have gained respect. Because they have proved they hold the qualities that people respect. One might also notice respect comes at different levels. Respect for skill in the rings, respect for kindness, respect for honor, these are but a few. Not all will use the same criteria for respect. A friend of mine once commented as his thoughts of a Baron, to which i will, from memory, attempt to paraphrase:
"Lack of character will cause you to be challenged oft, lack of skill will cost you the ring."
I submit being a Baron of note requires at least one level of respect if you care to make your mark. Either gain respect from skill by those who value skill, or gain respect from character by those who value character.
I suppose the heart of my feelings stems from this. I myself only require one persons respect, my own, if i cannot duel well i am displeased. If i cannot look myself in the mirror as being honorable i am untrue to myself.
Dex Montoya
Loyal to RhyDin
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From: foxxgrrl@aol.com (Foxxgrrl)
Date: 18 Jan 1998 17:00:46 EST
::swears loudly as she checks her post and crosses out the extra "a"::
::mutters::
Gods, I really DO know how to spell names, I swear...
Date: 18 Jan 1998 17:00:46 EST
::swears loudly as she checks her post and crosses out the extra "a"::
::mutters::
Gods, I really DO know how to spell names, I swear...
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 19 Jan 1998 12:35:23 EST
Friends,
I have two thoughts I would share. Since this conversation has drifted into realms not specifically related to the challenge at hand, my commentary is equally wide in scope.
The first thing I would like to speak on is respect. It would seem that several newer duelists are discouraged by the topic, possibly thinking it unfair that some older duelists are respected by mere virtue of their tenure. On that matter I offer you this: Respect is not a thing easilly earned. We do not simply give away respect and no one can demand it. Respect has to be earned. Now.. considering that, we should realize that the longer a
duelist remains a part of DoS, the more opportunities s/he has to gain respect from his or her peers. In short, I merely ask that you consider the possibility that respect of the older duelists isn't simply because they are older duelists.. though admittedly, they have had time on their side.
The second topic I would like to examine is the area of Overlord intercession. While my actual opinion on the topic varries, I don't feel my opinion is relevant here. Rather, I have a question as to the opinions I continue to hear from others. My question is this:
- Many times over, I have heard the opinion that once a warlord has earned his or her 10 peer wins, that person is perfectly qualified to challenge. The most often used argument here is that the rules allow it. Why is it that the duelists who put forth this argument, often fail to read the clause in these same rules that allows the Overlord to interceed at his whim? It is simply inequitable to argue that one duelist is held to no greater standard
than the printed rules, but that the other is.
Taking this question from the opposite side, I ask this. If this paradox is appropriate, I must ask how it can be expected that if a person is held to no standard above the rules at his or her challenge, when and how is this same person expected learn the unwritten standards?
Topics to think on, perhaps, before carrying the arguments further...
~Kalamere...
Date: 19 Jan 1998 12:35:23 EST
Friends,
I have two thoughts I would share. Since this conversation has drifted into realms not specifically related to the challenge at hand, my commentary is equally wide in scope.
The first thing I would like to speak on is respect. It would seem that several newer duelists are discouraged by the topic, possibly thinking it unfair that some older duelists are respected by mere virtue of their tenure. On that matter I offer you this: Respect is not a thing easilly earned. We do not simply give away respect and no one can demand it. Respect has to be earned. Now.. considering that, we should realize that the longer a
duelist remains a part of DoS, the more opportunities s/he has to gain respect from his or her peers. In short, I merely ask that you consider the possibility that respect of the older duelists isn't simply because they are older duelists.. though admittedly, they have had time on their side.
The second topic I would like to examine is the area of Overlord intercession. While my actual opinion on the topic varries, I don't feel my opinion is relevant here. Rather, I have a question as to the opinions I continue to hear from others. My question is this:
- Many times over, I have heard the opinion that once a warlord has earned his or her 10 peer wins, that person is perfectly qualified to challenge. The most often used argument here is that the rules allow it. Why is it that the duelists who put forth this argument, often fail to read the clause in these same rules that allows the Overlord to interceed at his whim? It is simply inequitable to argue that one duelist is held to no greater standard
than the printed rules, but that the other is.
Taking this question from the opposite side, I ask this. If this paradox is appropriate, I must ask how it can be expected that if a person is held to no standard above the rules at his or her challenge, when and how is this same person expected learn the unwritten standards?
Topics to think on, perhaps, before carrying the arguments further...
~Kalamere...
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From: perrinis@aol.com (Perrinis)
Date: 24 Jan 1998 16:13:08 EST
::reading over the posts, he blinks, and mutters::
<<when one issues challenge to a Baroness, calling her a male..>>
::scrawling out a big reply::
Hey Iain!
I haven't ever met Blue, nor seen her, nor had any contact with her save for
on these boards. Now, I don't know what fancy eyeglasses you have, but I simply don't have the ability to determine someone's gender by reading a post by them!
EXCUSE ME! Really now, we poor non-mind reading, non-finger waggling "normal" guys just can't get by these days... Le sigh.
-General Perrinis
(and is male, to those who can't magically know he is)
Date: 24 Jan 1998 16:13:08 EST
::reading over the posts, he blinks, and mutters::
<<when one issues challenge to a Baroness, calling her a male..>>
::scrawling out a big reply::
Hey Iain!
I haven't ever met Blue, nor seen her, nor had any contact with her save for
on these boards. Now, I don't know what fancy eyeglasses you have, but I simply don't have the ability to determine someone's gender by reading a post by them!
EXCUSE ME! Really now, we poor non-mind reading, non-finger waggling "normal" guys just can't get by these days... Le sigh.
-General Perrinis
(and is male, to those who can't magically know he is)
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 24 Jan 1998 19:31:02 EST
Perrinis~
Pardon?
I was referring to countless challenges levelled against Sister Adeena by oafs who refer to her as "him."
But, since you offer an argument against the proposition, I shall gladly tear it down. If you don't know enough about a dueler to know their gender, whether you've actually seen them or not, then you have no business challenging them - unless your specific reason for challenge is that they've not been seen in the realm for months.
Even then, we would expect one seeking the rank of Baron to be at least minimally conversant in current affairs; inasmuch as pertinent information is freely available to those who would only look, I can't accept that someone who won't look deserves any sort of rank.
I speak, of course, of the readily available texts within the History Center, which - while they may not be totally accurate on all details - certainly have never failed to deliver a Baron's proper gender to the student of the rings.
~irm
Date: 24 Jan 1998 19:31:02 EST
Perrinis~
Pardon?
I was referring to countless challenges levelled against Sister Adeena by oafs who refer to her as "him."
But, since you offer an argument against the proposition, I shall gladly tear it down. If you don't know enough about a dueler to know their gender, whether you've actually seen them or not, then you have no business challenging them - unless your specific reason for challenge is that they've not been seen in the realm for months.
Even then, we would expect one seeking the rank of Baron to be at least minimally conversant in current affairs; inasmuch as pertinent information is freely available to those who would only look, I can't accept that someone who won't look deserves any sort of rank.
I speak, of course, of the readily available texts within the History Center, which - while they may not be totally accurate on all details - certainly have never failed to deliver a Baron's proper gender to the student of the rings.
~irm
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From: kaprielle@aol.com (Kaprielle)
Date: 17 Jan 1998 13:47:48 EST
Barons, Overlord, and DoS community,
I'm going to pay harshly for my words and I accept this. Ulath and I go back only a couple years, and I do not consider him less than a friend, regardless of our disagreements on loyalty to the Overlord. I however disagree with much said.
First, I cannot say when any of the previous warlords began dueling but I would point out this: In the history I've seen it goes as follows, Falon, Xeno, Ulath, Midnyght, Dal, Luth, Moralitor and Kalamere. But those are duelers who in theory are still active in some respect, it is not counting warlords who have come and gone. Overall you were the 18th warlord of DoS, again how long it took you or anyone else to get there, I couldn't say.
Futher I'd point out, if you are going to validate your existance based on when you arrived in the Duels, that you fairly subtract the years of absence as well. All but Kalamere from what I can tell have had at least *one* long term absence from DoS, which should be accounted for. Because you arrived six years ago hardly means you've dueled for six years, which you haven't. To be honest there is no real point in this other than I often find people
who generally throw around the weight of their existence to be the very ones most guilty of year long absences or something similar. Elijah was and likely will be again a perfect example of this. Wherein you have not participated in a full year of history, yet preach as though it were so.
Now on to challenges, I can see several views on this matter and can honestly say I sit on the fence. I would be guilty of the accusations made, were there a *written* rule stating you cannot challenge until the peer wins have been validated. The rule on fancies "Ranks are not official until posted in the standings" are clearly stated, which I think is what Luthien argues, we need a similar rule for challenges. Although I'd say that it is very
likely that many would agree you shouldn't challenge until your peer wins have been posted, there is currently no rule stating such. There is no set amount of time that the standings keeper can take to validate a duelers peer wins, or none is written. So if Golden chose he could take a full month to do so at penalty to no one involved. Plus a baron always has a full week to respond to a challenge and that is from *date of validation* COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>NOT the date of challenge! Where is this written? No where! It is however in every response Golden sends out to the baron and challenger confirming peer wins, thus making it valid.
To lay the blame on the fact that duelers are new warlords is in itself questionable. All I can say is that they've got ten additional wins in order to challenge, most duelers cannot reach such a feat in a weekend. You cannot teach respect and if you force rules to be hardened you gain duelers who are only about dueling, instead of the ones who have deeper beliefs of DoS. I agree that the questions of tradition and honor are continually being
re-hashed and should be, but I think that no one can determine anothers reason for challenge, nor judge it as a *valid* one. Some simply want to achieve the rank and have no understanding of the ranks beyond the title. Is there a specific definition we should put forth? Who are we to decide this? Is it our right as previous title holders to get together and flush out reasons, rules, respect, rights, the cans and can'ts? That is what I'd
ask. Once again, I am guilty of accusations and do not pretend to be a saint in anyway, as I too have condemned previous challengers. For me it was more difficult to have a friends challenge then a newer dueler, as I'd rather have friends at my side then attempting to replace me, or me replacing them. But that is neither here no there.
Finally, I will say this, DoS usually seen as either a sport or as something more that bears a fine tradition. If you are going to call it a sport, then you cannot condemn he who aims for the top, as in any sport "number one" is the goal. In becoming a knight there is much more taking into account beyond one's ability to weild a sword. There were spoken and unspoken rules, from chilvalry to tradition and honor to say the very least. The two are
very separate and here is where I'd agree with Ulath in that duelers on occasion should ask themselves what they think DoS is about. Personally, I do not see it as a sport, I love the history center, I enjoy having some idea who's held what ring, who's held rings the longest, what records have been broken or created, small tidbits on duelers who are no longer around, etc. But I cannot force someone to educate themselves, only encourage it. Often
it is the barons who do not verbalize what they stand for or what they believe that are targeted most swiftly. Regardless of what I think about what someone states, they get kudos for having the balls to be involved and speak up.
Kaprille d'Agent
Baron of the first
Ex baron of the fifth
Date: 17 Jan 1998 13:47:48 EST
Barons, Overlord, and DoS community,
I'm going to pay harshly for my words and I accept this. Ulath and I go back only a couple years, and I do not consider him less than a friend, regardless of our disagreements on loyalty to the Overlord. I however disagree with much said.
First, I cannot say when any of the previous warlords began dueling but I would point out this: In the history I've seen it goes as follows, Falon, Xeno, Ulath, Midnyght, Dal, Luth, Moralitor and Kalamere. But those are duelers who in theory are still active in some respect, it is not counting warlords who have come and gone. Overall you were the 18th warlord of DoS, again how long it took you or anyone else to get there, I couldn't say.
Futher I'd point out, if you are going to validate your existance based on when you arrived in the Duels, that you fairly subtract the years of absence as well. All but Kalamere from what I can tell have had at least *one* long term absence from DoS, which should be accounted for. Because you arrived six years ago hardly means you've dueled for six years, which you haven't. To be honest there is no real point in this other than I often find people
who generally throw around the weight of their existence to be the very ones most guilty of year long absences or something similar. Elijah was and likely will be again a perfect example of this. Wherein you have not participated in a full year of history, yet preach as though it were so.
Now on to challenges, I can see several views on this matter and can honestly say I sit on the fence. I would be guilty of the accusations made, were there a *written* rule stating you cannot challenge until the peer wins have been validated. The rule on fancies "Ranks are not official until posted in the standings" are clearly stated, which I think is what Luthien argues, we need a similar rule for challenges. Although I'd say that it is very
likely that many would agree you shouldn't challenge until your peer wins have been posted, there is currently no rule stating such. There is no set amount of time that the standings keeper can take to validate a duelers peer wins, or none is written. So if Golden chose he could take a full month to do so at penalty to no one involved. Plus a baron always has a full week to respond to a challenge and that is from *date of validation* COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>NOT the date of challenge! Where is this written? No where! It is however in every response Golden sends out to the baron and challenger confirming peer wins, thus making it valid.
To lay the blame on the fact that duelers are new warlords is in itself questionable. All I can say is that they've got ten additional wins in order to challenge, most duelers cannot reach such a feat in a weekend. You cannot teach respect and if you force rules to be hardened you gain duelers who are only about dueling, instead of the ones who have deeper beliefs of DoS. I agree that the questions of tradition and honor are continually being
re-hashed and should be, but I think that no one can determine anothers reason for challenge, nor judge it as a *valid* one. Some simply want to achieve the rank and have no understanding of the ranks beyond the title. Is there a specific definition we should put forth? Who are we to decide this? Is it our right as previous title holders to get together and flush out reasons, rules, respect, rights, the cans and can'ts? That is what I'd
ask. Once again, I am guilty of accusations and do not pretend to be a saint in anyway, as I too have condemned previous challengers. For me it was more difficult to have a friends challenge then a newer dueler, as I'd rather have friends at my side then attempting to replace me, or me replacing them. But that is neither here no there.
Finally, I will say this, DoS usually seen as either a sport or as something more that bears a fine tradition. If you are going to call it a sport, then you cannot condemn he who aims for the top, as in any sport "number one" is the goal. In becoming a knight there is much more taking into account beyond one's ability to weild a sword. There were spoken and unspoken rules, from chilvalry to tradition and honor to say the very least. The two are
very separate and here is where I'd agree with Ulath in that duelers on occasion should ask themselves what they think DoS is about. Personally, I do not see it as a sport, I love the history center, I enjoy having some idea who's held what ring, who's held rings the longest, what records have been broken or created, small tidbits on duelers who are no longer around, etc. But I cannot force someone to educate themselves, only encourage it. Often
it is the barons who do not verbalize what they stand for or what they believe that are targeted most swiftly. Regardless of what I think about what someone states, they get kudos for having the balls to be involved and speak up.
Kaprille d'Agent
Baron of the first
Ex baron of the fifth
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From: sartanz@aol.com (Sartan Z)
Date: 17 Jan 1998 15:57:20 EST
Fellow members of the DoS:
To some of you I'm known, to others I am not. I'm fairly new here, as those who know me can testify to, and I also have already challenged. I had my own reasons for going through with that challenge, and they will remain my own. However, I would like to say one thing. In addition to those reasons, I wished to be part of the "grand history," as the Baroness Kaprielle put it in another of her posts, of the DoS.
Though I agree that one should wait at least for all of their Peer Wins to appear in the results portion of the Standings, can you truly fault someone for wanting to join in this sport's fair history? To say that you were holder of the ring that Ulath ni Fici held, to say you were holder of a ring that Luthien Tinuviel held, to just say you were holder of one of the nine rings of the DoS. Does that really put a person in the wrong, wishing to hold
a ring that someone the likes of a Siera Redwin or a Nova Grey Shadow had held?
These are my own personal opinions, and I doubt that many will pay very much heed, as I am still fairly new to the DoS. But I just wonder, is wanting to be one of the elite truly wrong?
~Sartan
~Warlord of the DoS
Date: 17 Jan 1998 15:57:20 EST
Fellow members of the DoS:
To some of you I'm known, to others I am not. I'm fairly new here, as those who know me can testify to, and I also have already challenged. I had my own reasons for going through with that challenge, and they will remain my own. However, I would like to say one thing. In addition to those reasons, I wished to be part of the "grand history," as the Baroness Kaprielle put it in another of her posts, of the DoS.
Though I agree that one should wait at least for all of their Peer Wins to appear in the results portion of the Standings, can you truly fault someone for wanting to join in this sport's fair history? To say that you were holder of the ring that Ulath ni Fici held, to say you were holder of a ring that Luthien Tinuviel held, to just say you were holder of one of the nine rings of the DoS. Does that really put a person in the wrong, wishing to hold
a ring that someone the likes of a Siera Redwin or a Nova Grey Shadow had held?
These are my own personal opinions, and I doubt that many will pay very much heed, as I am still fairly new to the DoS. But I just wonder, is wanting to be one of the elite truly wrong?
~Sartan
~Warlord of the DoS
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 17 Jan 1998 18:05:56 EST
Sartan~
I would certainly argue that the reasons you propose to seek a ring are far nobler than many others.
~irm
Date: 17 Jan 1998 18:05:56 EST
Sartan~
I would certainly argue that the reasons you propose to seek a ring are far nobler than many others.
~irm
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From: tasslehofl@aol.com (Tasslehofl)
Date: 17 Jan 1998 21:10:25 EST
::figues he would just say something along the affects of time and warlordships and barons rings and the overlordship::
To whom ever has taken the time to read on this far...
Many many of you know whom I am, dating back 5 years, to this present day. And each weekend I walk into the rings with hopes of winning a few duels, yet I walk having lost more than I have won, but I have gained more than I entered with. I do talk of respect, and of knowldge and of smarts. Losing is not to be taken lightly, nor it is to be taken too seriously. I feel that from 5 years of losing, I have gained the respect of *almost* all duelers
that have crossed paths with me...now I know there are many that still think of me as they would Tasslehoff Burrfoot, even though I have never been him. I accept this, and live with it, for I respect their thoughs and beliefs. We cannot change the way one thinks and acts to suit ourselves, so we must cope, and overcome that boundry that seperates us in hopes that we will someday call each other friend.
Since day 1, over 5 years ago, my dream was to be a baron...when I entered, the baronal rank was new to this sport, infact just inacted, I believe (I could be wrong for I have a terrable memory). Today, I still hold that dream, though it seems a little further from reach than it did back then...but none the less it is a dream. But dreams are not to be mistaken for greediness, which is, unfortunatey, what I have been seeing. There is no longer any
respect, courtoursy, or honour, that I can see within these challenge, towards those being challenge. On occasion, I do find one with the respect of old. Now do not cross my words, for I do state that *I* have seen, and may not be the way they really are.
I know that I will someday have my dream, and it will be taken from me, but then I can truely say that I reached my goal, and if and when that day comes (which will probably be when I turn 90 years old) I will be happy, and share my fond memories of the past with those that are there to see it with me.
I simply ask this of everyone, not just the warlords, barons, or even the overlord...but of everyone. Please consider honestly why you want things. Think of what you already have, and if you are willing enough to give up what you have for greediness, if you indeed want something out of greediness.
But then again, I am just a lowly commoner who has been around too long...
John Tasslehofl Momus
~Emperor of Commoners
Date: 17 Jan 1998 21:10:25 EST
::figues he would just say something along the affects of time and warlordships and barons rings and the overlordship::
To whom ever has taken the time to read on this far...
Many many of you know whom I am, dating back 5 years, to this present day. And each weekend I walk into the rings with hopes of winning a few duels, yet I walk having lost more than I have won, but I have gained more than I entered with. I do talk of respect, and of knowldge and of smarts. Losing is not to be taken lightly, nor it is to be taken too seriously. I feel that from 5 years of losing, I have gained the respect of *almost* all duelers
that have crossed paths with me...now I know there are many that still think of me as they would Tasslehoff Burrfoot, even though I have never been him. I accept this, and live with it, for I respect their thoughs and beliefs. We cannot change the way one thinks and acts to suit ourselves, so we must cope, and overcome that boundry that seperates us in hopes that we will someday call each other friend.
Since day 1, over 5 years ago, my dream was to be a baron...when I entered, the baronal rank was new to this sport, infact just inacted, I believe (I could be wrong for I have a terrable memory). Today, I still hold that dream, though it seems a little further from reach than it did back then...but none the less it is a dream. But dreams are not to be mistaken for greediness, which is, unfortunatey, what I have been seeing. There is no longer any
respect, courtoursy, or honour, that I can see within these challenge, towards those being challenge. On occasion, I do find one with the respect of old. Now do not cross my words, for I do state that *I* have seen, and may not be the way they really are.
I know that I will someday have my dream, and it will be taken from me, but then I can truely say that I reached my goal, and if and when that day comes (which will probably be when I turn 90 years old) I will be happy, and share my fond memories of the past with those that are there to see it with me.
I simply ask this of everyone, not just the warlords, barons, or even the overlord...but of everyone. Please consider honestly why you want things. Think of what you already have, and if you are willing enough to give up what you have for greediness, if you indeed want something out of greediness.
But then again, I am just a lowly commoner who has been around too long...
John Tasslehofl Momus
~Emperor of Commoners