From: dukeuziei@aol.com (Duke UzieI)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 09:08:40 EST
((if you were around for the first one.....batten down the hatches cause here it comes again))
Peers, Barons, Overlord, and all other patrons of the DoS,
In a fit of complete and utter boredom I finally decided to read all these posts, and in one tightly controlled word I am disgusted.
I came to these rings many moons ago, and what I saw as a *new* dueler totally rubbed my hackles the wrong way, and it still does, my change in rank, status or respect not withstanding.....alot of you ::refrains from using the word friggin twenty times in this post::....damn people still do the same thing you did when I was *new*......for some reason, only Jeff can see what I am talking about here...because he experienced it.
Of these challenges to the baronial rings from the new Warlords Dueler and Darkness2, of Dueler I have no real opinion, of Darkness....I have some fairly not nice things to say about him but I keep them to myself. But when it comes down to this I know where I stand.........its exactly where I stood back at the beginning....and frankly...some of the new Warlords detractors have completely and totally surprised me.
I said it once....and I say it again. Everyone here cannot be OLD SCHOOL.....the new ones will come and they will be here and they will duel and challenge and holds ranks and lose them....just the same as all of you have done...just because you joined the DoS back in the old days of member rooms and glory and respect does not mean you have a right to tell ANYONE how they should conduct themselves nor can you look down upon
them for their actions simply because they are *new*.
If you want to make this more difficult, then do what I ::refrains again from cursing:: suggested well nigh a year ago and up the peer wins required, up the wins to make rank...and add some restrictive rules to challenging, so that one peer rank can only challenge the next rank up....gods people.....that has been under discussion for a YEAR now....has it occured to any of you OLD SCHOOL duelists to take action on it? Hell
no....we just go on and on, and every new challenge brings yet another bucket load of crap and hypocritical arguments to the forefront of the DoS.
As to whether Darkness's challenge is valid or not.....I really don't care...and as to his respect to Ulath, I could really give a lick about that too........everyone makes mistakes. But the rules state it in BLACK AND WHITE 10 Peer Wins and ANYONE holding the rank of Warlord can challenge for Barony, 15 and they could be the next damn Overlord.....and you can wheedle and cajole and look down your noses at them all you
want......but when it comes down to it, all your #th Baron of the Blah Blah Ring and ##th OverPerson of the Duels means NOTHING. Those are the rules, you don't HAVE to like it.....you just have to do it.
As to the people that have TRULY shocked me here......you know who you are.....you were there with me at the beginning, when we all set out to change this mode of thinking in the DoS and now that we have all become what we set out to become in the first place. respected Warlords of the sport......it seems you may have lost sight of what got you there in the first place......the fire in your chest to be respected and honored
by those that looked down their noses at us when we all started here.
As I said.......if you don't like challenges.....then don't hold a Ring.....if you don't like new Warlords challenging....then leave the DoS...because theres gonna be a new Warlord every week....and there is nothing you can do to keep them from wanting to be more in the sport. So just deal with it.
No one screams at me when I challenge.....if Iain suddenly decided he wanted to be the Overlord...everyone would just nod and understand......hell....even my friend and compatriot Sartan challenged and he is no older than the stubble on his chin to most of us...and no one fryed him. So sit back....and let the challenges flow....because people just sitting on rings.......like several I can mention....just cause a political
stagnation of the sport....I have more respect for those that have been challenged and defended honorabally, than for those that never get challenged and sit upon their rings and covet them, and become viperous and nasty when someone finally decides to try and take it.
So thats the deal folks, you don't have to like it and you can fry me all you friggin want.....but thats how things are here in the DoS....you don't like it....get it changed....and if you won't do that. Shut your mouths and deal with the results of your own complacency...because..no matter what you do, no matter how loud you scream about honor and respect and history...theres still gonna be that green new warlord out there
thats gonna want your ring.
And don't try and hit me over the head with the histories people....I've read em...and been around for alot of things myself....so just move on and let the challenges flow....because I for one would LOVE to see some changes in the Baronial Council.
In hopes for further stemming of stagnation in the DoS,
~Adonai Uziel~
~DragonLord of RhyDin~
~Warlord of the Duel of Swords~
[~¥~]
FIRE AND BRIMSTONE II Re: Challenges
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From: mortedulce@aol.com (MorteDulce)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 11:25:51 EST
::tacks up her post::
Friends and Enemies,
As one o' the eternal commoners, I see alot o' things yer verra much missin up there in the clouds. Rank? I could be carin less 'bout that. I have dueled and beaten lots o' Warlords and Barons, even the Overlord several times. Just like the commoners and other lower ranks, some are good and some stink. But I'll promise each and every Baron out there, when I do make my rank as Warlord, I WILL challenge the weakest o' ye. Tis the way o'
the world, and as Adonai points out, what the rules allow.
I respect most duelers, but I have a problem with all this whinin 'bout challenges and such. Pull yer boots up, lads....and get on with the dance. And leave the crybaby stuff to the wee babes o' RhyDin.
Morte
@---,--'-- Morte Strongbow--'--,---@
Date: 23 Jan 1998 11:25:51 EST
::tacks up her post::
Friends and Enemies,
As one o' the eternal commoners, I see alot o' things yer verra much missin up there in the clouds. Rank? I could be carin less 'bout that. I have dueled and beaten lots o' Warlords and Barons, even the Overlord several times. Just like the commoners and other lower ranks, some are good and some stink. But I'll promise each and every Baron out there, when I do make my rank as Warlord, I WILL challenge the weakest o' ye. Tis the way o'
the world, and as Adonai points out, what the rules allow.
I respect most duelers, but I have a problem with all this whinin 'bout challenges and such. Pull yer boots up, lads....and get on with the dance. And leave the crybaby stuff to the wee babes o' RhyDin.
Morte
@---,--'-- Morte Strongbow--'--,---@
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From: lordovdale@aol.com (LordovDale)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 11:31:47 EST
Adonai,
You are certainly well withing your rights to share your opinions of a certain "old school" type of thought on these boards, but the people you are rampaging against get those same rights. You say that we can't all be "old school", and that us "old schoolers" are snotty and that we look down our noses at everyone else? Well, in reality, respect is given to those who *deserve* and *earn* it. The only reason more of the "generally respected"
community are old school duelists is because they've had more time gain that respect. But that *does not* mean that *no* younger duelists are respect, and it does not mean that no "old" duelists get no respect. I will again use the perennial example, Elijah, to make my point. He was hardly a well respected individual, and he was quite "old school".
Aside from this idea of gaining respect before trying to take a title, which you clearly have a different opinion on, I say that those of us who don't like challenges can infact do something about it. What is that you say? Well, we (and I mean that in the royal sense) can try to stop as many of them as possible. And if there are people who don't like that, than they can come challenge. But you know what? Throughout all of this, people can whine
and complain and say *anything* they want on the boards, because that is their god given right. You may not like what they have to say, and you can disagree with them, but you can't tell them not to believe and say the things that they believe and say. Just remember, for every person you are "disgusted" with, there's probably someone out there who is disgusted with you. Just as there's someone out there who hates me for every person I hate, and so
on.. and so on.
respectfully,
Lord Dalamar Ar'Daumon
Overlord of the Duel of Swords
Lord of the Dale
Guardian of the Oldest House
Date: 23 Jan 1998 11:31:47 EST
Adonai,
You are certainly well withing your rights to share your opinions of a certain "old school" type of thought on these boards, but the people you are rampaging against get those same rights. You say that we can't all be "old school", and that us "old schoolers" are snotty and that we look down our noses at everyone else? Well, in reality, respect is given to those who *deserve* and *earn* it. The only reason more of the "generally respected"
community are old school duelists is because they've had more time gain that respect. But that *does not* mean that *no* younger duelists are respect, and it does not mean that no "old" duelists get no respect. I will again use the perennial example, Elijah, to make my point. He was hardly a well respected individual, and he was quite "old school".
Aside from this idea of gaining respect before trying to take a title, which you clearly have a different opinion on, I say that those of us who don't like challenges can infact do something about it. What is that you say? Well, we (and I mean that in the royal sense) can try to stop as many of them as possible. And if there are people who don't like that, than they can come challenge. But you know what? Throughout all of this, people can whine
and complain and say *anything* they want on the boards, because that is their god given right. You may not like what they have to say, and you can disagree with them, but you can't tell them not to believe and say the things that they believe and say. Just remember, for every person you are "disgusted" with, there's probably someone out there who is disgusted with you. Just as there's someone out there who hates me for every person I hate, and so
on.. and so on.
respectfully,
Lord Dalamar Ar'Daumon
Overlord of the Duel of Swords
Lord of the Dale
Guardian of the Oldest House
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 12:17:10 EST
Adonai,
How precisely has the issue of respect come to be the province of the "old school"? Once again, it seems you have gone out of your way to insult an entire class of duelists, the majority of whom are not even represented in the discussion you are reffering to.
There was a day when I did not qualify as "old school." I still, from time to time, think I do not, but as one of the senior warlords left I suppose I'd be kidding myself to not see my place within that group. So, having accepted my "class" there are a number of things I would like to make you aware of.
1) No one wants "everyone here" to be old school.. That would be bloody well boring, don't you think? It is from the entrence of new blood that we see new styles and our own skills progress.
2) You say: "has it occured to any of you OLD SCHOOL duelists to take action on it?"
Of course it has, however you again make the mistake of thinking the "old school" is of one mind.
Firstly, observe that the people complaining of this topic are not all of the "old school", so you might well have saved your capitalization and merely said "any of you duelists."
Secondly, opinions vary on what woud be done to solve the problem... while one person may think, as you write, that peer wins should be lifted or that the rights to challenge should be restricted, others believe that peer wins should be done away with altogether....... You might also notice, that it is not within the province of the patrons of this sport to change the rules. That is a matter left to the disgression of the staff.
The problem I see with your suggestion is that you can not legislate respect. That is, after all, the largest issue behind the current debate. Changing the rules will not make others show any more thought or respect in their challenges.. it will simply make the wait a tad longer. These are two very different things.
3) To quote you once more: "but when it comes down to it, all your #th Baron of the Blah Blah Ring and ##th OverPerson of the Duels means NOTHING. Those are the rules, you don't HAVE to like it.....you just have to do it.."
On the contrary, you have pinpointed an area where the title of the person makes all the difference and where politics can become a key factor. You see, while the rules may allow the duelists in question to issue challenge, they also allow the Baron's council to ignore it if the Baron in question fails to answer the challenge. Granted, no Baron to date has had the courage and strength of belief to send this issue to Council... but it certainly can
be done.
Lastly.. I must confess one more issue with your statement of "shut up or get it fixed." This, I believe I have mentioned before, so forgive the possible redundancy. Duelists have no power to "get it fixed." Whether they be old school or new. The only weapon left to them is that of convincing others as to the rightness of their ways. Thus, this message board is the duelist's tool to fixing the problems they perceive.
Of course.. having just used that tool yourself.. I suspect you already see how it works.
~ Kalamere...
Date: 23 Jan 1998 12:17:10 EST
Adonai,
How precisely has the issue of respect come to be the province of the "old school"? Once again, it seems you have gone out of your way to insult an entire class of duelists, the majority of whom are not even represented in the discussion you are reffering to.
There was a day when I did not qualify as "old school." I still, from time to time, think I do not, but as one of the senior warlords left I suppose I'd be kidding myself to not see my place within that group. So, having accepted my "class" there are a number of things I would like to make you aware of.
1) No one wants "everyone here" to be old school.. That would be bloody well boring, don't you think? It is from the entrence of new blood that we see new styles and our own skills progress.
2) You say: "has it occured to any of you OLD SCHOOL duelists to take action on it?"
Of course it has, however you again make the mistake of thinking the "old school" is of one mind.
Firstly, observe that the people complaining of this topic are not all of the "old school", so you might well have saved your capitalization and merely said "any of you duelists."
Secondly, opinions vary on what woud be done to solve the problem... while one person may think, as you write, that peer wins should be lifted or that the rights to challenge should be restricted, others believe that peer wins should be done away with altogether....... You might also notice, that it is not within the province of the patrons of this sport to change the rules. That is a matter left to the disgression of the staff.
The problem I see with your suggestion is that you can not legislate respect. That is, after all, the largest issue behind the current debate. Changing the rules will not make others show any more thought or respect in their challenges.. it will simply make the wait a tad longer. These are two very different things.
3) To quote you once more: "but when it comes down to it, all your #th Baron of the Blah Blah Ring and ##th OverPerson of the Duels means NOTHING. Those are the rules, you don't HAVE to like it.....you just have to do it.."
On the contrary, you have pinpointed an area where the title of the person makes all the difference and where politics can become a key factor. You see, while the rules may allow the duelists in question to issue challenge, they also allow the Baron's council to ignore it if the Baron in question fails to answer the challenge. Granted, no Baron to date has had the courage and strength of belief to send this issue to Council... but it certainly can
be done.
Lastly.. I must confess one more issue with your statement of "shut up or get it fixed." This, I believe I have mentioned before, so forgive the possible redundancy. Duelists have no power to "get it fixed." Whether they be old school or new. The only weapon left to them is that of convincing others as to the rightness of their ways. Thus, this message board is the duelist's tool to fixing the problems they perceive.
Of course.. having just used that tool yourself.. I suspect you already see how it works.
~ Kalamere...
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From: dukeuziei@aol.com (Duke UzieI)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 13:10:49 EST
Okay,
Valid points to you both.....but Kal...your wrong...the duelists DO have a say in what changes here...they come up with the ideas, and if enough of them press the issue...the staff will make a vote on it. Several times I have heard there were to be active rules discussion...and little have I seen in the way of changes that would make this all better.
But the main point of my ire is this.......Darkness and Dueler were both preemptive in their challenges....I admit that...but whose fault is it that these new duelers do not know the intricacies of challenges as well as others? Theirs...of course...for not reading the Rights of Challenge....but ours also...for not teaching them better ourselves...because imitation of action is all these new Warlords have so far.....other than the
rules...which are routinely just skimmed even by myself...challenge Rights and procedure is only known well to those that have done it before.
Point in fact....9 Baronial Rings.....point in fact 93 Active Warlords in the DoS.....thats 10 active challengers for every ring, theres going to be challenges aplenty...respectful or not....correct or not. But I tell you now, the first Baron that I see ignore a challenge and have it turned back by the Council for not thinking a Warlord is worthy of the opportunity....will face my challenge next...and that is a blood oath I will
keep, no matter what rank or title I hold within this sport.
I know all about gaining respect....I myself have gained respect in this sport...and I am not saying I do not see things differently than I once did now that I have become what I am today veruses the hot headed loud mouth I was when I came out of my ages of isolation. But I do not believe Dueler...nor Darkness did this out of a need or want for your respect....but what I believe they saw as the next logical progression in their
dueling careers.
I find it a tad wrong that the stronger duelers and more famous representatives of this sport so casually toss aside their responsibility to educate the newer blood as to what our sport is and what its about((Mind you all old duelers are not this way)) But then can somehow without shame castigate the new for their mistakes, without feeling that somewhat....that THEY have failed also.
But generally...when opinions conflict....you will see what I say as wrong...and even ignore the bits of truth in it...because that is the way of mortals. And I am far from surprised.
So let it be known that I condemn NO ONE for their opinion...nor what they say...but their actions towards those that will be here to carry on the old guards legends when they have passed from this Arena to other things. So try and remember, and even I sometimes forget this...that the person you ignore and revile now...will be the person to tell the new duelers about you when you are long gone from this sport.....so try and
think kindly, and guide those that need guidence...and not publically castigate them for their errors that they have made for lack of information.
And now I think I am somewhat done with this line of thought,
~Adonai
Date: 23 Jan 1998 13:10:49 EST
Okay,
Valid points to you both.....but Kal...your wrong...the duelists DO have a say in what changes here...they come up with the ideas, and if enough of them press the issue...the staff will make a vote on it. Several times I have heard there were to be active rules discussion...and little have I seen in the way of changes that would make this all better.
But the main point of my ire is this.......Darkness and Dueler were both preemptive in their challenges....I admit that...but whose fault is it that these new duelers do not know the intricacies of challenges as well as others? Theirs...of course...for not reading the Rights of Challenge....but ours also...for not teaching them better ourselves...because imitation of action is all these new Warlords have so far.....other than the
rules...which are routinely just skimmed even by myself...challenge Rights and procedure is only known well to those that have done it before.
Point in fact....9 Baronial Rings.....point in fact 93 Active Warlords in the DoS.....thats 10 active challengers for every ring, theres going to be challenges aplenty...respectful or not....correct or not. But I tell you now, the first Baron that I see ignore a challenge and have it turned back by the Council for not thinking a Warlord is worthy of the opportunity....will face my challenge next...and that is a blood oath I will
keep, no matter what rank or title I hold within this sport.
I know all about gaining respect....I myself have gained respect in this sport...and I am not saying I do not see things differently than I once did now that I have become what I am today veruses the hot headed loud mouth I was when I came out of my ages of isolation. But I do not believe Dueler...nor Darkness did this out of a need or want for your respect....but what I believe they saw as the next logical progression in their
dueling careers.
I find it a tad wrong that the stronger duelers and more famous representatives of this sport so casually toss aside their responsibility to educate the newer blood as to what our sport is and what its about((Mind you all old duelers are not this way)) But then can somehow without shame castigate the new for their mistakes, without feeling that somewhat....that THEY have failed also.
But generally...when opinions conflict....you will see what I say as wrong...and even ignore the bits of truth in it...because that is the way of mortals. And I am far from surprised.
So let it be known that I condemn NO ONE for their opinion...nor what they say...but their actions towards those that will be here to carry on the old guards legends when they have passed from this Arena to other things. So try and remember, and even I sometimes forget this...that the person you ignore and revile now...will be the person to tell the new duelers about you when you are long gone from this sport.....so try and
think kindly, and guide those that need guidence...and not publically castigate them for their errors that they have made for lack of information.
And now I think I am somewhat done with this line of thought,
~Adonai
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From: sartanz@aol.com (Sartan Z)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 16:09:39 EST
To whomever reads this,
Ok, folks, I'm just going to list a few things off the top of my head, so bear with this, if you wish to read it.
First things first. I'm a "newbie Warlord" and proud of it. I worked hard to obtain this rank, and whether I'm referred to as "newbie" or something else, I am a Warlord. Anyway, I've been here about 5 months now, and issued a challenge around 2 months ago to the Baron Errol Faline. I lost that challenge, as most who read the Standings have been able to tell, but that's getting off topic. When I challenged him, it was for my own personal
reasons, in addition to a few others I listed in another writing.
However, I can say a few things about my challenge experience. First, I was treated courteously by the Baron Faline, other than his initial reaction to my challenge, as is understandable. Second, when preparing my challenge, I asked several members of the community about challenge etiquette and regulations, and they willingly helped me. I don't know if these people would be known as "old schoolers", but they most certainly are not "newbies." They
were respected, though I use the word respected loosely for a certain height-imparied one of them, well known figures of the community, and they were willing to help me, a new fellow to the rings. I'm unsure of what this may prove, but it does show that there are people willing to help the newer duelers, even as there may be people unwilling to help the newer members. Quite honestly, though, can anyone truly blame an older member of the community
for not wanting to help someone who oh-so politely says " If you don't help me, I'm going to kick your ****** *** "(insert your own expletives there.) On this topic, all I'm saying is that Dalamar is right. To each his own, and no person has the right to tell another his beliefs are wrong.
Jumping to another subject, I wanted to address something Adonai mentioned in his initial post, a statement that said "Sartan challenged...and no one fryed him." Yes, this is true, no one tried to talk me out of challenging. They understood, as I feel most people do, that I had my Peer Wins and that, while I might have liked to have them say "Yeah, go kick some butt, kid," I wouldn't have cared if they said "Don't challenge, you newbie." Quite
honestly, if I had gotten "fryed" by someone on my challenge, if anything, it would have strengthened my resolve to challenge Baron Faline and give it all I had.
On a final note, I would like to mention something. Before Baron Faline received his ring, I was thinking of challenging other Barons, namely the Baronesses Adeena Maeax or Luthien Tinuviel. I had my Peer Wins and truly wanted to be a member of the Baronial ranks, for those reasons previously alluded to. I had around 20-25 Peer Win's when my challenge did come around. My question simply is "Does waiting to collect a certain number of Peer Win's
and experience make someone a more worthy challenger for a Baron?" I personally don't think so. A prime example of this would be Jeff. I wasn't around when he issued his first challenge to Daegarth, but I did hear of his victory and subsequent defenses. Shouldn't a person's right to goi after a ring be based on their skill within the dueling rings, and not however long they've been here or what their current political opinion, be it favorable or
unfavorable, is?
Well, to all of you brave souls who struggle through this message, my undying apprecation. I hope some of you who do read this take my opinions into thought and consideration.
~Sartan
Date: 23 Jan 1998 16:09:39 EST
To whomever reads this,
Ok, folks, I'm just going to list a few things off the top of my head, so bear with this, if you wish to read it.
First things first. I'm a "newbie Warlord" and proud of it. I worked hard to obtain this rank, and whether I'm referred to as "newbie" or something else, I am a Warlord. Anyway, I've been here about 5 months now, and issued a challenge around 2 months ago to the Baron Errol Faline. I lost that challenge, as most who read the Standings have been able to tell, but that's getting off topic. When I challenged him, it was for my own personal
reasons, in addition to a few others I listed in another writing.
However, I can say a few things about my challenge experience. First, I was treated courteously by the Baron Faline, other than his initial reaction to my challenge, as is understandable. Second, when preparing my challenge, I asked several members of the community about challenge etiquette and regulations, and they willingly helped me. I don't know if these people would be known as "old schoolers", but they most certainly are not "newbies." They
were respected, though I use the word respected loosely for a certain height-imparied one of them, well known figures of the community, and they were willing to help me, a new fellow to the rings. I'm unsure of what this may prove, but it does show that there are people willing to help the newer duelers, even as there may be people unwilling to help the newer members. Quite honestly, though, can anyone truly blame an older member of the community
for not wanting to help someone who oh-so politely says " If you don't help me, I'm going to kick your ****** *** "(insert your own expletives there.) On this topic, all I'm saying is that Dalamar is right. To each his own, and no person has the right to tell another his beliefs are wrong.
Jumping to another subject, I wanted to address something Adonai mentioned in his initial post, a statement that said "Sartan challenged...and no one fryed him." Yes, this is true, no one tried to talk me out of challenging. They understood, as I feel most people do, that I had my Peer Wins and that, while I might have liked to have them say "Yeah, go kick some butt, kid," I wouldn't have cared if they said "Don't challenge, you newbie." Quite
honestly, if I had gotten "fryed" by someone on my challenge, if anything, it would have strengthened my resolve to challenge Baron Faline and give it all I had.
On a final note, I would like to mention something. Before Baron Faline received his ring, I was thinking of challenging other Barons, namely the Baronesses Adeena Maeax or Luthien Tinuviel. I had my Peer Wins and truly wanted to be a member of the Baronial ranks, for those reasons previously alluded to. I had around 20-25 Peer Win's when my challenge did come around. My question simply is "Does waiting to collect a certain number of Peer Win's
and experience make someone a more worthy challenger for a Baron?" I personally don't think so. A prime example of this would be Jeff. I wasn't around when he issued his first challenge to Daegarth, but I did hear of his victory and subsequent defenses. Shouldn't a person's right to goi after a ring be based on their skill within the dueling rings, and not however long they've been here or what their current political opinion, be it favorable or
unfavorable, is?
Well, to all of you brave souls who struggle through this message, my undying apprecation. I hope some of you who do read this take my opinions into thought and consideration.
~Sartan
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 17:53:48 EST
Sartan,
Admittedly, this is not directed solely at you, however, it was your writings that have caused me to think of what is to follow.
It seems necessary to point out to both new and old that "instantaneous challenge" is nothing new. Hopefully Adonai will forgive me for my lapse into history here, however, some may recall a duelist by name of Prince Stefano de Fortenza. This duelist reached the rank of Warlord on March 15th, 1994... within a month after that he defeated 2 time Overlord, Xenograg kathu-Darelir, to become the 7th holder of that title. To my knowledge, he was
not hounded about tradition and unwritten standards in the way that some of our more recent challengers have been....
The point here being that one need not have long standing tenure to be respected. I would venture to say that *showing* respect towards the one you would challenge and especially for the Duel of Swords itself, is the fastest way to earn such respect for yourself and to be accepted as a true contender for title... which brings me to my second point...
No matter how many people cry out that this is a "sport" or a "game," it will not change the fact that the current baronial positions are inherently entwined in politics. The Baronial council *is* a political body. My agreement with Adonai's thoughts on education aside, if a duelist can not show respect for the Duel of Swords, that duelist is not worthy of holding one of the 10 titled positions. So.. when Sartan writes:
> Shouldn't a person's right to goi after a ring be based on their skill within the
> dueling rings, and not however long they've been here or what their current
> political opinion, be it favorable or unfavorable, is?
I must say, no. Most certainly skill must be a factor, that is inarguable. But one can not rule out political opinions and aspirations altogether... lest one first takes Adonai's other piece of advice and goes to get the rules changed to releave the Baronial council of its political mantle. Until such time, this is more than your usual "game" and those titles carry a burden more cumbersome than mere skill with a blade.
~ Kalamere...
Date: 23 Jan 1998 17:53:48 EST
Sartan,
Admittedly, this is not directed solely at you, however, it was your writings that have caused me to think of what is to follow.
It seems necessary to point out to both new and old that "instantaneous challenge" is nothing new. Hopefully Adonai will forgive me for my lapse into history here, however, some may recall a duelist by name of Prince Stefano de Fortenza. This duelist reached the rank of Warlord on March 15th, 1994... within a month after that he defeated 2 time Overlord, Xenograg kathu-Darelir, to become the 7th holder of that title. To my knowledge, he was
not hounded about tradition and unwritten standards in the way that some of our more recent challengers have been....
The point here being that one need not have long standing tenure to be respected. I would venture to say that *showing* respect towards the one you would challenge and especially for the Duel of Swords itself, is the fastest way to earn such respect for yourself and to be accepted as a true contender for title... which brings me to my second point...
No matter how many people cry out that this is a "sport" or a "game," it will not change the fact that the current baronial positions are inherently entwined in politics. The Baronial council *is* a political body. My agreement with Adonai's thoughts on education aside, if a duelist can not show respect for the Duel of Swords, that duelist is not worthy of holding one of the 10 titled positions. So.. when Sartan writes:
> Shouldn't a person's right to goi after a ring be based on their skill within the
> dueling rings, and not however long they've been here or what their current
> political opinion, be it favorable or unfavorable, is?
I must say, no. Most certainly skill must be a factor, that is inarguable. But one can not rule out political opinions and aspirations altogether... lest one first takes Adonai's other piece of advice and goes to get the rules changed to releave the Baronial council of its political mantle. Until such time, this is more than your usual "game" and those titles carry a burden more cumbersome than mere skill with a blade.
~ Kalamere...
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 17:53:31 EST
Adonai,
I find your second missive well thought out and do not wholely disagree with its points. Of course it took me a couple minutes to get past the "Kal.. your wrong" portion... and naturally that is a point I do not believe you are entirely correct upon.
For sake of discussion, I would like to point out our areas of difference. taking it from the top:
> the duelists DO have a say in what changes here...they come up with the ideas,
> and if enough of them press the issue...the staff will make a vote on it.
I can only halfway agree with that statement, and the part that I agree with further emphasizes my earlier point of this message board being the tool of change and/or education. Duelists do have the power to speak their minds and to let their thoughts be known. They, as you say, come up with the ideas. No duelist may implement those ideas however. The staff, out of courtesy to the patrons, holds the open rules
discussion to get those ideas and then take them to private voting. I understand that the latest rules discussion amongst the staff is nearly complete, so shortly you will see exactly how much impact our public discussion had on the verdict. I encourage you to compare the new rulings, when they arrive, to the discussion we had those months ago... I believe you will find our thoughts had little influence on things.
> so try and think kindly, and guide those that need guidence...and not publically
> castigate them for their errors that they have made for lack of information.
I agree with your points on education, and will quickly say that what you speak of in the above quote is not my style.. however.. This, so called, castigation doubles as a form of education. Surely it is not the best way to teach, though in cases it can be effective.
Such a style may become necessary (or some may feel it necessary) in two situations.... Either, there are too many new people to the realm and not enough teachers to guide them, or (and this is more common) the newer entrants are simply unwilling to be taught. Those who venture into the arena, carrying a chip upon their shoulder for even their very first duel, do not make good students.
For the record, I point no fingers here. I am not attempting to indicate either the nameless Dueler or "Darkness", rather pointing out a time when some may feel the only way of educating is to tear the person down.
Of course, the subject attempting to be taught may not sink in with the person in question... however it often takes hold with some of that person's peers. I can not recall the exact quote, though there was a great philosopher (read: Sun Tsu) who once said that you can terrorize many by torturing only one. Much the same effect here.
That said, I'd like to re-itterate that I agree with the points on education and further thank you for leaving out the "old school" stereotype from this latest post.
~Kalamere...
Date: 23 Jan 1998 17:53:31 EST
Adonai,
I find your second missive well thought out and do not wholely disagree with its points. Of course it took me a couple minutes to get past the "Kal.. your wrong" portion... and naturally that is a point I do not believe you are entirely correct upon.
For sake of discussion, I would like to point out our areas of difference. taking it from the top:
> the duelists DO have a say in what changes here...they come up with the ideas,
> and if enough of them press the issue...the staff will make a vote on it.
I can only halfway agree with that statement, and the part that I agree with further emphasizes my earlier point of this message board being the tool of change and/or education. Duelists do have the power to speak their minds and to let their thoughts be known. They, as you say, come up with the ideas. No duelist may implement those ideas however. The staff, out of courtesy to the patrons, holds the open rules
discussion to get those ideas and then take them to private voting. I understand that the latest rules discussion amongst the staff is nearly complete, so shortly you will see exactly how much impact our public discussion had on the verdict. I encourage you to compare the new rulings, when they arrive, to the discussion we had those months ago... I believe you will find our thoughts had little influence on things.
> so try and think kindly, and guide those that need guidence...and not publically
> castigate them for their errors that they have made for lack of information.
I agree with your points on education, and will quickly say that what you speak of in the above quote is not my style.. however.. This, so called, castigation doubles as a form of education. Surely it is not the best way to teach, though in cases it can be effective.
Such a style may become necessary (or some may feel it necessary) in two situations.... Either, there are too many new people to the realm and not enough teachers to guide them, or (and this is more common) the newer entrants are simply unwilling to be taught. Those who venture into the arena, carrying a chip upon their shoulder for even their very first duel, do not make good students.
For the record, I point no fingers here. I am not attempting to indicate either the nameless Dueler or "Darkness", rather pointing out a time when some may feel the only way of educating is to tear the person down.
Of course, the subject attempting to be taught may not sink in with the person in question... however it often takes hold with some of that person's peers. I can not recall the exact quote, though there was a great philosopher (read: Sun Tsu) who once said that you can terrorize many by torturing only one. Much the same effect here.
That said, I'd like to re-itterate that I agree with the points on education and further thank you for leaving out the "old school" stereotype from this latest post.
~Kalamere...
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From: drakewynx@aol.com (Drakewyn x)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 19:48:05 EST
::Figuring she must have graduated to the "old school", because she's been agreeing with most of the points of the "old schoolers" lately...::
Gentlemen... and I do not use the term lightly.
The Duel of Swords has a grand tradition... one which, even if I should never issue a challenge in my career, I will have been proud to be a part of. I believe that in his second post, Kalamere said it best. "there are too many new people to the realm and not enough teachers to guide them," and more importantly, "Those who venture into the arena, carrying a chip upon their shoulder for even their very first duel,
do not make good students."
All too often I have seen people come into the Arena with the attitude of "I'm here to show you people how to duel." Even worse, in my opinion, are those duelers who project the attitude of "I'm just here to duel... nothing else... ever. All I want is to make rank, period."
I will do what I can to teach people about how I view the Duel of Swords... my opinions about honor and dignity... and the rich history and traditions that many of us, even the new ones, hold dear.
Thank you for your time.
Lady Drake.
Date: 23 Jan 1998 19:48:05 EST
::Figuring she must have graduated to the "old school", because she's been agreeing with most of the points of the "old schoolers" lately...::
Gentlemen... and I do not use the term lightly.
The Duel of Swords has a grand tradition... one which, even if I should never issue a challenge in my career, I will have been proud to be a part of. I believe that in his second post, Kalamere said it best. "there are too many new people to the realm and not enough teachers to guide them," and more importantly, "Those who venture into the arena, carrying a chip upon their shoulder for even their very first duel,
do not make good students."
All too often I have seen people come into the Arena with the attitude of "I'm here to show you people how to duel." Even worse, in my opinion, are those duelers who project the attitude of "I'm just here to duel... nothing else... ever. All I want is to make rank, period."
I will do what I can to teach people about how I view the Duel of Swords... my opinions about honor and dignity... and the rich history and traditions that many of us, even the new ones, hold dear.
Thank you for your time.
Lady Drake.
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From: sartanz@aol.com (Sartan Z)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 20:49:08 EST
Kalamere,
Of course the titles of the DoS carry a burden of politics with them, and I never said otherwise. In addition, for the record, I never referred to the Duel of Swords as a "game," as a few others did. I realize, as does anyone who's been around Dal when someone was talking about most of his Intercessions, or around one of the Questrion Barons fairly recently, that those titles come with a price.
The point I was trying to make was that, at the current time, a person's skill with the blade is all that's necessary for them to challenge, and, in my opinion, should be one of, if not the, key factor in deciding their worthiness to hold a title. Dalamar has already faced down 7 challengers, and the key factor in each of these challenges was skill with the blade. I don't really know if I had a point with m previous note or this one, in fact. All
I am really trying to say is that, for the time being, the only worthiness one needs to challenge with and hold onto the title with, if victorious, is worthiness of the blade.
~Sartan
Date: 23 Jan 1998 20:49:08 EST
Kalamere,
Of course the titles of the DoS carry a burden of politics with them, and I never said otherwise. In addition, for the record, I never referred to the Duel of Swords as a "game," as a few others did. I realize, as does anyone who's been around Dal when someone was talking about most of his Intercessions, or around one of the Questrion Barons fairly recently, that those titles come with a price.
The point I was trying to make was that, at the current time, a person's skill with the blade is all that's necessary for them to challenge, and, in my opinion, should be one of, if not the, key factor in deciding their worthiness to hold a title. Dalamar has already faced down 7 challengers, and the key factor in each of these challenges was skill with the blade. I don't really know if I had a point with m previous note or this one, in fact. All
I am really trying to say is that, for the time being, the only worthiness one needs to challenge with and hold onto the title with, if victorious, is worthiness of the blade.
~Sartan
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From: karyepezd@aol.com (Karye PezD)
Date: 23 Jan 1998 22:19:59 EST
Think it's time for one of the newcomers (not "newbies", that sounds so damned demeaning) to say something? My turn anyway. Where to start, though, where to start..
Honor and respect were mentioned..I know what honor is, and I know what respect is, and I get the feeling a lot of the other newer duelists don't. A lot don't care. How are you supposed to teach them that? I have no clue, period. I've taken a wannabe adventurer/dueler/whatever aside in my time (elsewhere, obviously), when I find one that truly seems willing to learn about whatever it is they don't know about..seems to be the best way to teach
without running into a bunch of brickheads that have their ears plugged to anything but the words "Open to duel!" Other than that, though, all you really can do is lead by example and try not to let the twits get too frustrating.
Personally, I know a lot of people think I have no respect for anything, and maybe that's true. Lorminstra knows I've been pretty harsh to Gnim with the short jokes, but that's just because I like him (not like *that*, either). To his credit, he hasn't come back with any pointy ear cracks..there's really no point to this paragraph other than for me to officially say I don't hate Gnimmy. ::twisted smiley face drawn here:: On with the note, then.
Another thing- why challenge? I keep hearing stuff about politics being involved, or something about just having something to do with peer wins, or being respected first. I said it before, I'll say it again- I see these people who are "ranked" dive after..Commoners, I think, who say they're open to duel. Beating on the little folk to get your shot at a title? That I have a problem with. I'd like to think most people would agree with me there.
A challenge is a challenge, though, and they have to be answered (or so I thought, but Kal's statement about letting the Baron's Council decide..I don't get it, really, but I haven't read the rules about it since I'm not in that position yet). May the better duelist win and all that, right? The Barons get the nice rings, and the Overlord gets...something. Sounds rather sports-like to me. Now, this is where things get interesting to me- where do
the politics come into play?
I tacked up another note here, which got a response, and the whole point of them both was to find this out- if someone has a problem with the Overlord, they'll challenge a Loyal Baron to erode his support. What am I not getting here? I managed to obtain a dictionary (don't ask how) after reading about how politics and the DoS are so intertwined, and I looked up the word "politics". Almost every definition refers to some kind of government. I
hardly think the hierarchy (see, I really did read it) in this sport can be called a government.
There's one that doesn't, though, and here's how it reads- "Intrigue and maneuvering within a group". Fits better than the rest. But what is the point of the maneuvering? Is it really so important to draw a line in the dirt, divide people into actual factions, just for a title in this sport? What type of power actually comes with being a Baron, besides becoming someone that people look up to, that can do some good?
Main question, then, is-
*Why is politics supposed to be so essential to the Duel of Swords*?
Until I hear a good answer to this question, I will continue to treat this as a sport. A sport with definite history, tradition, etc., all of which I'd like to be part of (I love seeing my name in lights), but a sport nonetheless. And for all of you that don't really give a damn what I think, just remember that I'm far from the only such newcomer around (not to mention I think more highly of this sport than most of those newcomers), and a good
answer could change the minds of lots of people. That would change the sport, which is something you want- right?
K.P.
Who doesn't care how many "fancies" she gets, since she does everything fancy as it is.
Date: 23 Jan 1998 22:19:59 EST
Think it's time for one of the newcomers (not "newbies", that sounds so damned demeaning) to say something? My turn anyway. Where to start, though, where to start..
Honor and respect were mentioned..I know what honor is, and I know what respect is, and I get the feeling a lot of the other newer duelists don't. A lot don't care. How are you supposed to teach them that? I have no clue, period. I've taken a wannabe adventurer/dueler/whatever aside in my time (elsewhere, obviously), when I find one that truly seems willing to learn about whatever it is they don't know about..seems to be the best way to teach
without running into a bunch of brickheads that have their ears plugged to anything but the words "Open to duel!" Other than that, though, all you really can do is lead by example and try not to let the twits get too frustrating.
Personally, I know a lot of people think I have no respect for anything, and maybe that's true. Lorminstra knows I've been pretty harsh to Gnim with the short jokes, but that's just because I like him (not like *that*, either). To his credit, he hasn't come back with any pointy ear cracks..there's really no point to this paragraph other than for me to officially say I don't hate Gnimmy. ::twisted smiley face drawn here:: On with the note, then.
Another thing- why challenge? I keep hearing stuff about politics being involved, or something about just having something to do with peer wins, or being respected first. I said it before, I'll say it again- I see these people who are "ranked" dive after..Commoners, I think, who say they're open to duel. Beating on the little folk to get your shot at a title? That I have a problem with. I'd like to think most people would agree with me there.
A challenge is a challenge, though, and they have to be answered (or so I thought, but Kal's statement about letting the Baron's Council decide..I don't get it, really, but I haven't read the rules about it since I'm not in that position yet). May the better duelist win and all that, right? The Barons get the nice rings, and the Overlord gets...something. Sounds rather sports-like to me. Now, this is where things get interesting to me- where do
the politics come into play?
I tacked up another note here, which got a response, and the whole point of them both was to find this out- if someone has a problem with the Overlord, they'll challenge a Loyal Baron to erode his support. What am I not getting here? I managed to obtain a dictionary (don't ask how) after reading about how politics and the DoS are so intertwined, and I looked up the word "politics". Almost every definition refers to some kind of government. I
hardly think the hierarchy (see, I really did read it) in this sport can be called a government.
There's one that doesn't, though, and here's how it reads- "Intrigue and maneuvering within a group". Fits better than the rest. But what is the point of the maneuvering? Is it really so important to draw a line in the dirt, divide people into actual factions, just for a title in this sport? What type of power actually comes with being a Baron, besides becoming someone that people look up to, that can do some good?
Main question, then, is-
*Why is politics supposed to be so essential to the Duel of Swords*?
Until I hear a good answer to this question, I will continue to treat this as a sport. A sport with definite history, tradition, etc., all of which I'd like to be part of (I love seeing my name in lights), but a sport nonetheless. And for all of you that don't really give a damn what I think, just remember that I'm far from the only such newcomer around (not to mention I think more highly of this sport than most of those newcomers), and a good
answer could change the minds of lots of people. That would change the sport, which is something you want- right?
K.P.
Who doesn't care how many "fancies" she gets, since she does everything fancy as it is.
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From: gnimishrw@aol.com (Gnimish RW)
Date: 24 Jan 1998 02:44:41 EST
::Sniffles, touched::
Aw....ya really care....
::Wanders off, snickering::
Date: 24 Jan 1998 02:44:41 EST
::Sniffles, touched::
Aw....ya really care....
::Wanders off, snickering::
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 24 Jan 1998 19:53:55 EST
Karye asks,
*Why is politics supposed to be so essential to the Duel of Swords*?
And I answer... because that is how the sport was conceived, essentially.
I cannot speak with first-hand knowledge of the days prior to the madman, Max, and his grip on the Overlordship. I can, however, explain in very clear fashion that from my first entrance into this arena - through the reigns of Redwin and Percival, Feamegil and Gnimoi, and the first ascension of the cleric Athlstan - the position of Overlord was not a prize in a game. It was a position of power and respect in this community, and perhaps the greatest
controversy of that period involved Lord Gnimoi's seeming disregard for that station.
Through that period, also, I can say to you with utter certainty that few, if any, challengers for the title of Baron did so to seek rank, but rather did so in order to serve the sitting Overlord, or for personal political reasons.
Perhaps the feelings of the majority have changed, and this should just be a sport, with no leadership, and chaotic revolving doors. Should that be the case, then by all means, I encourage those who feel this is nothing but a game to take control of those positions of power, and enforce their will. I suspect they might fnd, however, that such an action will lead to a substantial loss of personality here.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Prince Consort, New Mountainside
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords.
((Briefly, I'd also note that the rules are specifically written in a manner which encourages the politicization of the rings, and changes to the rules through the years have enhanced that. This is a roleplaying forum, obviously; the standing opinion has always seemed to me to be that if it's just 'duel for rank,' then we aren't roleplaying anything. Viewing the titled positions as positions of power and political influence serves the purpose of
roleplay, while just dueling to win does not.))
Date: 24 Jan 1998 19:53:55 EST
Karye asks,
*Why is politics supposed to be so essential to the Duel of Swords*?
And I answer... because that is how the sport was conceived, essentially.
I cannot speak with first-hand knowledge of the days prior to the madman, Max, and his grip on the Overlordship. I can, however, explain in very clear fashion that from my first entrance into this arena - through the reigns of Redwin and Percival, Feamegil and Gnimoi, and the first ascension of the cleric Athlstan - the position of Overlord was not a prize in a game. It was a position of power and respect in this community, and perhaps the greatest
controversy of that period involved Lord Gnimoi's seeming disregard for that station.
Through that period, also, I can say to you with utter certainty that few, if any, challengers for the title of Baron did so to seek rank, but rather did so in order to serve the sitting Overlord, or for personal political reasons.
Perhaps the feelings of the majority have changed, and this should just be a sport, with no leadership, and chaotic revolving doors. Should that be the case, then by all means, I encourage those who feel this is nothing but a game to take control of those positions of power, and enforce their will. I suspect they might fnd, however, that such an action will lead to a substantial loss of personality here.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Prince Consort, New Mountainside
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords.
((Briefly, I'd also note that the rules are specifically written in a manner which encourages the politicization of the rings, and changes to the rules through the years have enhanced that. This is a roleplaying forum, obviously; the standing opinion has always seemed to me to be that if it's just 'duel for rank,' then we aren't roleplaying anything. Viewing the titled positions as positions of power and political influence serves the purpose of
roleplay, while just dueling to win does not.))
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From: aislainuz@aol.com (Aislain Uz)
Date: 25 Jan 1998 03:51:24 EST
::sniffles as she reads through the tempest then writes in a childish scrawl with hearts and flowers adorning her script::
Papa,
I do not want to go to the *old* school, they go *on * and *on and *on* . I guess its important if you say so but pretty please, let me dance in the *new* one? I want to be dance like the Pirate Queen and ask Dal to intercede I want Madam Tynsdale to curtsy and say nice things about my new dress.
I am new! I want you to be proud of me and Aggy! Some day we will be mean Pirates and not let anyone hurt you. I love you the mostest in the whole widest world.
I promise to remember the old school Papa,
Aislain
Date: 25 Jan 1998 03:51:24 EST
::sniffles as she reads through the tempest then writes in a childish scrawl with hearts and flowers adorning her script::
Papa,
I do not want to go to the *old* school, they go *on * and *on and *on* . I guess its important if you say so but pretty please, let me dance in the *new* one? I want to be dance like the Pirate Queen and ask Dal to intercede I want Madam Tynsdale to curtsy and say nice things about my new dress.
I am new! I want you to be proud of me and Aggy! Some day we will be mean Pirates and not let anyone hurt you. I love you the mostest in the whole widest world.
I promise to remember the old school Papa,
Aislain
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From: dakich@aol.com (Dakich)
Date: 25 Jan 1998 16:06:26 EST
Hey guys,
1. Good points Adonai.
2. Nicely said Sar.
3. And good points from everyone else.
All I can is....this is kinda dumb. Forget the politics and have fun. Newbies are people too...and old schoolers are also *just* people. We all win big and lose big. It's not like any of the recent newbie challengers have been rude or anything....to my knowledge.
If Barons and Overlords were meant to keep their seats until they didn't want it anymore then there would be a rule which stated that they can keep their seats until they don't want it anymore. But easy come easy go....so expect those challenges and take it well....take it with Honor.
-Dak
"It I was a tree....waht kinda of tree would I be?.....Hey!! I heard that!"
Date: 25 Jan 1998 16:06:26 EST
Hey guys,
1. Good points Adonai.
2. Nicely said Sar.
3. And good points from everyone else.
All I can is....this is kinda dumb. Forget the politics and have fun. Newbies are people too...and old schoolers are also *just* people. We all win big and lose big. It's not like any of the recent newbie challengers have been rude or anything....to my knowledge.
If Barons and Overlords were meant to keep their seats until they didn't want it anymore then there would be a rule which stated that they can keep their seats until they don't want it anymore. But easy come easy go....so expect those challenges and take it well....take it with Honor.
-Dak
"It I was a tree....waht kinda of tree would I be?.....Hey!! I heard that!"