From: jakvaltrds@aol.com (Jakvaltrds)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 18:50:54 EDT
::standing before the ancient cork a smile crosses his lips as he ponders the banter, reading a few words that are truly thought provoking and then a few more that are merely out of ire. Slowly he turns away, saving his opinion until it matters, walking out of the arena and into the fresh air above:::
A Renegade's Challenge to the 7th
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:01:52 EDT
Baron Uziel,
In the beginning you made the outright assertion that one ought not even question the Overlord on this matter.
> If it is within the rules. Then it is. Plain and simple. And I believe attempting to make people live
> by your code, under threat of force is....as I have stated. The worst form of fascisim known to man.
Yet now, you make a statement somewhat different.
> Mayhaps if the Overlord was to change...and that person perpetuated the same practices
> Dalamar is...or Athlstan was...I would become a flamingly voiceferous Renegade, and my
> challenge would be forthcoming to that person. But in this case....my loyalties to my friends
> overrides that.
I begin to smell the stench of hypocrisy. While my distaste for the proposition that the Overlord should not be questioned in these matters remains, it would seem now that your true stance is that no one should question the Overlord in these matters, so long as that Overlord is your friend.
If the scenario from your quote above were to occur, and it was you who found issue with the Overlord, would you not then be as much the "oppressor" as you here would label me? A bit of a double standard Baron Uziel, wouldn't you agree?
~Kalamere...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:01:52 EDT
Baron Uziel,
In the beginning you made the outright assertion that one ought not even question the Overlord on this matter.
> If it is within the rules. Then it is. Plain and simple. And I believe attempting to make people live
> by your code, under threat of force is....as I have stated. The worst form of fascisim known to man.
Yet now, you make a statement somewhat different.
> Mayhaps if the Overlord was to change...and that person perpetuated the same practices
> Dalamar is...or Athlstan was...I would become a flamingly voiceferous Renegade, and my
> challenge would be forthcoming to that person. But in this case....my loyalties to my friends
> overrides that.
I begin to smell the stench of hypocrisy. While my distaste for the proposition that the Overlord should not be questioned in these matters remains, it would seem now that your true stance is that no one should question the Overlord in these matters, so long as that Overlord is your friend.
If the scenario from your quote above were to occur, and it was you who found issue with the Overlord, would you not then be as much the "oppressor" as you here would label me? A bit of a double standard Baron Uziel, wouldn't you agree?
~Kalamere...
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From: xvevan@aol.com (XvEvan)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:08:12 EDT
::posts::
Var,
Ye mean in other words, Gnort failed at taking me out and now ye care to try? Well the date was set due to whinning about not being able to make it Saturday. I gave to reason and set a new date which will not change inless Helix feels other wise. So show up or don't, its not like you are leaving the lands for a week or two((going on Vacation,ect)).
And for Lily. Insults only fuel a flame which burns nicely now and has caused most of this. If it was not for that, Dal may have never got a challenge and hell, may have never even tried to challenge Kap. So keep the pushing up, cause I don't plan to break.
-Evan
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:08:12 EDT
::posts::
Var,
Ye mean in other words, Gnort failed at taking me out and now ye care to try? Well the date was set due to whinning about not being able to make it Saturday. I gave to reason and set a new date which will not change inless Helix feels other wise. So show up or don't, its not like you are leaving the lands for a week or two((going on Vacation,ect)).
And for Lily. Insults only fuel a flame which burns nicely now and has caused most of this. If it was not for that, Dal may have never got a challenge and hell, may have never even tried to challenge Kap. So keep the pushing up, cause I don't plan to break.
-Evan
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From: xvevan@aol.com (XvEvan)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:20:03 EDT
::posts::
Lily, I belive I have already.
-EVAN
::grins and walks off::
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:20:03 EDT
::posts::
Lily, I belive I have already.
-EVAN
::grins and walks off::
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:27:19 EDT
::Raises a brow::
Evan,
This is not one kind posting, if I may say. Just because G didn't get the baron's ring means that I wanted to "try". Him and I have been friends for a while, and through thick and thin, I would be there for him as a friend, just as I think he would be there for me. The attitude of "show up or don't" is insulting, because it is an act of respect to try to set up a duel convenient for both duelers.
I made a vow as a friend, and I will keep it. You were well aware of this vow in my initial challenge. For some reason or another, you said that there was no need for a reason, in response. I ask you, why do you suddenly question my intentions, when you were well aware of them.
I am saying this as kindly as possible: don't say to me I don't need a reason to challenge you, then turn around and put words in my mouth, especially by doing it publically. I have a copy of the original letter I sent to you, and I know what I said. I, personally, am deeply insulted by this.
±
"When you throw mud, your hands become dirty"
"There is only one way to achieve immortality; you must accomplish good, and let the memory of your goodness live forever, among others"
::Walks off, thinking to himself, not posting anything, or saying it out loud, "Gee, and they wonder why Dal gave him the test of worthiness?"::
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:27:19 EDT
::Raises a brow::
Evan,
This is not one kind posting, if I may say. Just because G didn't get the baron's ring means that I wanted to "try". Him and I have been friends for a while, and through thick and thin, I would be there for him as a friend, just as I think he would be there for me. The attitude of "show up or don't" is insulting, because it is an act of respect to try to set up a duel convenient for both duelers.
I made a vow as a friend, and I will keep it. You were well aware of this vow in my initial challenge. For some reason or another, you said that there was no need for a reason, in response. I ask you, why do you suddenly question my intentions, when you were well aware of them.
I am saying this as kindly as possible: don't say to me I don't need a reason to challenge you, then turn around and put words in my mouth, especially by doing it publically. I have a copy of the original letter I sent to you, and I know what I said. I, personally, am deeply insulted by this.
±
"When you throw mud, your hands become dirty"
"There is only one way to achieve immortality; you must accomplish good, and let the memory of your goodness live forever, among others"
::Walks off, thinking to himself, not posting anything, or saying it out loud, "Gee, and they wonder why Dal gave him the test of worthiness?"::
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From: dukeuziei@aol.com (Duke UzieI)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:31:36 EDT
Lord Kalamere,
True, my statements can be mistrewn as hypocrisy, but that would be an shallow view of them.
And as I stated earlier, I have questioned Dal's practices as Overlord, but personally and privately, settling things as friends do.
So you may do as you wish, and continue to misconcieve my words. Or you can do as most have done. See that I value true friendship above any code of conduct.
If that disturbs you, mayhaps you might want to look around at your friends.
~Adonai
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:31:36 EDT
Lord Kalamere,
True, my statements can be mistrewn as hypocrisy, but that would be an shallow view of them.
And as I stated earlier, I have questioned Dal's practices as Overlord, but personally and privately, settling things as friends do.
So you may do as you wish, and continue to misconcieve my words. Or you can do as most have done. See that I value true friendship above any code of conduct.
If that disturbs you, mayhaps you might want to look around at your friends.
~Adonai
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:27:46 EDT
Var:
I shouldn't have to say this five times in one day, but apparently I must.
The Overlord's tactic has been to encourage challenges to his renegade Barons.
That tactic is now being used against him. Very simple.
~irm
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:27:46 EDT
Var:
I shouldn't have to say this five times in one day, but apparently I must.
The Overlord's tactic has been to encourage challenges to his renegade Barons.
That tactic is now being used against him. Very simple.
~irm
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:32:47 EDT
Baron Uziel,
The issue I brought up has naught to do with your private conversations with Lord Ar'Daumon. Rather, a hypothetical situation which you yourself introduced.
In your writings you suggested that were the Overlord not your friend, it is possible that you would " become a flamingly voiceferous Renegade and [your] challenge would be forthcoming to that person." Without making some form of assumption about mine and Dalamar's friendship, how would your reaction to this hypothetical situation be any different than mine?
The hypocrisy I speak of is your condemnation of my reasons for challenging, while at the same time you admit that you may well have done the same thing were not the Overlord your friend. So who then, Baron Uziel, is the shallow one?
If your issue with this challenge is based soley in your friendship with the Overlord, then simply say so. Do not hide behind some trite argument about what the rules allow when it is not even a thing you appear to believe in.
~Kalamere...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:32:47 EDT
Baron Uziel,
The issue I brought up has naught to do with your private conversations with Lord Ar'Daumon. Rather, a hypothetical situation which you yourself introduced.
In your writings you suggested that were the Overlord not your friend, it is possible that you would " become a flamingly voiceferous Renegade and [your] challenge would be forthcoming to that person." Without making some form of assumption about mine and Dalamar's friendship, how would your reaction to this hypothetical situation be any different than mine?
The hypocrisy I speak of is your condemnation of my reasons for challenging, while at the same time you admit that you may well have done the same thing were not the Overlord your friend. So who then, Baron Uziel, is the shallow one?
If your issue with this challenge is based soley in your friendship with the Overlord, then simply say so. Do not hide behind some trite argument about what the rules allow when it is not even a thing you appear to believe in.
~Kalamere...
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From: dukeuziei@aol.com (Duke UzieI)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:42:27 EDT
Lord Kalamere,
What you fail to understand is I have no issue with your challenge. I have issue with your reason and your circumlocutious way of gaining what you feel will fix the problem. But enough with that.
To the Warlord, Overlord, Barons, and the Patrons of the Duels,
I, Adonai Uziel, DragonLord of RhyDin and Baron of the Seventh Ring of the Duel of Swords do hereby officially accept the challenge of the Warlord Kalamere.
I do also now set this challenge to be called by the estimable Nycholas De Gyrlington on the Battlefield at 8 PM EST this Sunday the 19th of April.
As I said...I give you quick justice Warlord, prepare yourself.
~Adonai Uziel~
~DragonLord of RhyDin~
~Baron of the Seventh~
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:42:27 EDT
Lord Kalamere,
What you fail to understand is I have no issue with your challenge. I have issue with your reason and your circumlocutious way of gaining what you feel will fix the problem. But enough with that.
To the Warlord, Overlord, Barons, and the Patrons of the Duels,
I, Adonai Uziel, DragonLord of RhyDin and Baron of the Seventh Ring of the Duel of Swords do hereby officially accept the challenge of the Warlord Kalamere.
I do also now set this challenge to be called by the estimable Nycholas De Gyrlington on the Battlefield at 8 PM EST this Sunday the 19th of April.
As I said...I give you quick justice Warlord, prepare yourself.
~Adonai Uziel~
~DragonLord of RhyDin~
~Baron of the Seventh~
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:56:24 EDT
Mr. Giovanni,
Before I begin, please know that I consider none of this to be a personal feud. There are few against whom I hold a grudge and certainly understand that men (and women) will always vary in what they consider honorable and just.
Moving on to your points, I do not think I can agree with your analogy to religion. Though, that is most likely because I am not a religious man. I would compare things rather to polotics and hold forth the Overlord as King. Would a man opposed to the king remove a loyal knight so as to weaken the king's foothold on the land? I daresay one might.
Religion is a different matter you see, for you cannot remove a diety from the heavens no matter what he might try and so it is fruitless to attack those who worship him. A King, however, may be removed and when one, for whatever reason, may not bring siege against the King himself, one's purpose may still be pursued in taking the outlying cities.
In the missives you have directed to the attention of Baron Evan, you have spoken of your vow. I would hope that having your own vows you might better comprehend mine and the way in which they bind me. I can not approach the Overlord directly and so I must approach from another direction. Dalamar has played this game of politics better than any Overlord before him though, so I see little harm in turning that table in his direction.
If nothing else sir, I hope this explanation assists your understanding of my reasons, even if you do not agree with them.
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:56:24 EDT
Mr. Giovanni,
Before I begin, please know that I consider none of this to be a personal feud. There are few against whom I hold a grudge and certainly understand that men (and women) will always vary in what they consider honorable and just.
Moving on to your points, I do not think I can agree with your analogy to religion. Though, that is most likely because I am not a religious man. I would compare things rather to polotics and hold forth the Overlord as King. Would a man opposed to the king remove a loyal knight so as to weaken the king's foothold on the land? I daresay one might.
Religion is a different matter you see, for you cannot remove a diety from the heavens no matter what he might try and so it is fruitless to attack those who worship him. A King, however, may be removed and when one, for whatever reason, may not bring siege against the King himself, one's purpose may still be pursued in taking the outlying cities.
In the missives you have directed to the attention of Baron Evan, you have spoken of your vow. I would hope that having your own vows you might better comprehend mine and the way in which they bind me. I can not approach the Overlord directly and so I must approach from another direction. Dalamar has played this game of politics better than any Overlord before him though, so I see little harm in turning that table in his direction.
If nothing else sir, I hope this explanation assists your understanding of my reasons, even if you do not agree with them.
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 21:34:42 EDT
Jeff writes:
> I suppose da question I really need answered, da point I'm really tryin' ta make is, would ya
> turn away yer loyals and friends Iain? If ya were Overlord? As much as I like ta fight fer
> myself, I'm not sure I could...
One year ago, my friend, you offered to interceed against Baron Ellisa Morgan when she threatened to take the title of Overlord from my hands. I declined your offer. Were you made to feel slighted or unworthy in any way? Perhaps I assume too much, but I do not believe you felt so.
Friends will always understand when your principals and sense of honor force you to take a certain course of action, despite their divergent desires. Often times they will even applaud you for it.... else they would not truly be friends.
~Kalamere...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 21:34:42 EDT
Jeff writes:
> I suppose da question I really need answered, da point I'm really tryin' ta make is, would ya
> turn away yer loyals and friends Iain? If ya were Overlord? As much as I like ta fight fer
> myself, I'm not sure I could...
One year ago, my friend, you offered to interceed against Baron Ellisa Morgan when she threatened to take the title of Overlord from my hands. I declined your offer. Were you made to feel slighted or unworthy in any way? Perhaps I assume too much, but I do not believe you felt so.
Friends will always understand when your principals and sense of honor force you to take a certain course of action, despite their divergent desires. Often times they will even applaud you for it.... else they would not truly be friends.
~Kalamere...
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From: beliedame@aol.com (BelIeDame)
Date: 18 Apr 1998 18:22:06 EDT
The meadow faery reads all the remarks and opinions about loyalty and The Overlord and just sorta laughs inwardly. She muses over what a male chauvanist Dalamar is and how truely arrogant and insideous his nature has proven to be. Thinking about all the other choices of who might be a worthy Overlord, she settles on Elle McBride.
"Now wouldn't that be fun", her voice a raspy whisper as she walks over to the bar, giggling.
BelIe Dame
Faery of the Mead
Sanctioned TDL Caller
Sans Merci
bd
Date: 18 Apr 1998 18:22:06 EDT
The meadow faery reads all the remarks and opinions about loyalty and The Overlord and just sorta laughs inwardly. She muses over what a male chauvanist Dalamar is and how truely arrogant and insideous his nature has proven to be. Thinking about all the other choices of who might be a worthy Overlord, she settles on Elle McBride.
"Now wouldn't that be fun", her voice a raspy whisper as she walks over to the bar, giggling.
BelIe Dame
Faery of the Mead
Sanctioned TDL Caller
Sans Merci
bd
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From: dueier@aol.com (DueIer)
Date: 18 Apr 1998 18:34:57 EDT
After reading well over a dozen new posts on this topic, combined with the dozens of old posts, it appears we are no closer to any kind of end to this debate. Know that unless someone says something that affects me much more directly than these back and forth postings, I will be staying out of this. There certainly is no longer anything in it for me.
~The Nameless DueIer~
~5th Baron of DoS~
Date: 18 Apr 1998 18:34:57 EDT
After reading well over a dozen new posts on this topic, combined with the dozens of old posts, it appears we are no closer to any kind of end to this debate. Know that unless someone says something that affects me much more directly than these back and forth postings, I will be staying out of this. There certainly is no longer anything in it for me.
~The Nameless DueIer~
~5th Baron of DoS~
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From: stevegx@aol.com (SteveG X)
Date: 18 Apr 1998 19:49:21 EDT
Var:
<<Name calling won't solve this. Iain, Steve, I think you have both done this too.>>
((This whole post is not about this quote))
I will admit to some kind of underhanded tactic in attempts to inflame Adonai further than he already is. However, I fail to see it as name calling. I apologize for anything I said that was in any way insulting to Adonai and any other member of the community. However, that does not mean that what I said was an insult, for most of what I said has I believe has its basis in truth, and was not meant to be derogatory.
Baron Uziel appears to hold friendship in high regard. I cannot fault him for that. I would make up an insult here, but that would go against what I want to say. However, if he believes that he can use friendship as a reason to not have hypocritical statements be so, he is wrong. If a friendship leads to you* going back on your beliefs, then you should consider either seriously question one of two things: your beliefs, or your friendship. Giving
in to what they do without question makes you look either weak minded or hypocritical (or both). Since there is little doubt as to Baron Uziel's will power, his statements and beliefs seem to scream hypocrisy to me. I just can't seem to see it any other way.
-Steve
* This is a general "you" and "your", not meant to identify anyone in particular. I was going to use "one" and "one's", which I normally try to do, but that sounded way too weird.
Date: 18 Apr 1998 19:49:21 EDT
Var:
<<Name calling won't solve this. Iain, Steve, I think you have both done this too.>>
((This whole post is not about this quote))
I will admit to some kind of underhanded tactic in attempts to inflame Adonai further than he already is. However, I fail to see it as name calling. I apologize for anything I said that was in any way insulting to Adonai and any other member of the community. However, that does not mean that what I said was an insult, for most of what I said has I believe has its basis in truth, and was not meant to be derogatory.
Baron Uziel appears to hold friendship in high regard. I cannot fault him for that. I would make up an insult here, but that would go against what I want to say. However, if he believes that he can use friendship as a reason to not have hypocritical statements be so, he is wrong. If a friendship leads to you* going back on your beliefs, then you should consider either seriously question one of two things: your beliefs, or your friendship. Giving
in to what they do without question makes you look either weak minded or hypocritical (or both). Since there is little doubt as to Baron Uziel's will power, his statements and beliefs seem to scream hypocrisy to me. I just can't seem to see it any other way.
-Steve
* This is a general "you" and "your", not meant to identify anyone in particular. I was going to use "one" and "one's", which I normally try to do, but that sounded way too weird.
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From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 11:59:55 EDT
Rejoice as you fall to the level of oppressor Kalamere, I now know that diversity of honor and person is not truly appreciated by those here.
You may not like it. Hell....at times I don't even like it. But there is little that can be done about it...and it is not my perogotive to tell the Holder of the Crown how to conduct himself on the Throne.
Opinions matter, thoughts are taken into account, but when it comes down to the end game. Nothing matters but the choices made...and you, nor I have any control ofthem.
------------------------------------------------
Well, I am going to say something here and I hope it will be taken as it is meant.
When was a baron's ring won of friendship? Have there not been those that have held rings that did challenge a friend to get that ring? I can understand one defending Dalamar on the basis of friendship, but being a Baron is an earned (won) political office not a testament of friendship. I am not questioning the loyalty of any baron, nor their ability to choose for themselves, but I must question when personal relationships seem to be used
for political purposes. Have king's not sat together as their armies warred? Were one to say they were loyal to the Overlord because he is, in their mind, the embodiment of what the DoS should be I can accept, but I have seen time and time again the first pillar one runs in defense their decision to be loyal is their friendship. This sport is a constant test, of adversarial conflict and therefore one should not have to turn to emotions first for
they weaken the resolve.
I mean no disrespect to the Overlord or any of the Barons but I feel this needs be pointed out. I consider Kalamere a friend, but, were I a Baron and he the Overlord again, I might declare myself renegade. If this were to dissolve our friendship, then we were not true friends to begin with. As I have taught my children, a friend is someone who knows all there is to know about ye and still calls ye friend.
As far as the rants, I have selected from, how can ye call a single renegade baron diverse Baron Uziel? Is this not the proverbial "token Nubian" in an interracial community?
I will not be turned in that the stances of Baron's and Overlords should be more responsible than, "I like so and so." Otherwise we forget those that literally gave their lives in this sport. History, tradition, honor. These are what makes DoS great, instead of a popularity contest.
If friendships can be broken by a disagreement over the politics of the DoS then I shall hang my sword on the wall and duel no longer, but I have more faith in those I call friend. Again, I do not question the loyalties of the Baron's but when one thread runs constant in all staments of loyalty, it shows a pattern. And in the absence of information, people are prone to make up their own.
I do not consider Dalamar a poor dueler, quite the opposite, but just because we are teammates and friends does not mean that I cannot disagree with him. I do not feel that should inhibit our friendship because dueling is conflict. Disagreement is life. Human beings should be able to rise above opposing stances when they are truly friends.
Forgive me, if I have offended anyone, but I believe friendships should be able to with stand opposing stances. My marriage to Helix has and I have never, nor has she, swallowed our beliefs just to keep the peace.
~Brian Girvin
Date: 19 Apr 1998 11:59:55 EDT
Rejoice as you fall to the level of oppressor Kalamere, I now know that diversity of honor and person is not truly appreciated by those here.
You may not like it. Hell....at times I don't even like it. But there is little that can be done about it...and it is not my perogotive to tell the Holder of the Crown how to conduct himself on the Throne.
Opinions matter, thoughts are taken into account, but when it comes down to the end game. Nothing matters but the choices made...and you, nor I have any control ofthem.
------------------------------------------------
Well, I am going to say something here and I hope it will be taken as it is meant.
When was a baron's ring won of friendship? Have there not been those that have held rings that did challenge a friend to get that ring? I can understand one defending Dalamar on the basis of friendship, but being a Baron is an earned (won) political office not a testament of friendship. I am not questioning the loyalty of any baron, nor their ability to choose for themselves, but I must question when personal relationships seem to be used
for political purposes. Have king's not sat together as their armies warred? Were one to say they were loyal to the Overlord because he is, in their mind, the embodiment of what the DoS should be I can accept, but I have seen time and time again the first pillar one runs in defense their decision to be loyal is their friendship. This sport is a constant test, of adversarial conflict and therefore one should not have to turn to emotions first for
they weaken the resolve.
I mean no disrespect to the Overlord or any of the Barons but I feel this needs be pointed out. I consider Kalamere a friend, but, were I a Baron and he the Overlord again, I might declare myself renegade. If this were to dissolve our friendship, then we were not true friends to begin with. As I have taught my children, a friend is someone who knows all there is to know about ye and still calls ye friend.
As far as the rants, I have selected from, how can ye call a single renegade baron diverse Baron Uziel? Is this not the proverbial "token Nubian" in an interracial community?
I will not be turned in that the stances of Baron's and Overlords should be more responsible than, "I like so and so." Otherwise we forget those that literally gave their lives in this sport. History, tradition, honor. These are what makes DoS great, instead of a popularity contest.
If friendships can be broken by a disagreement over the politics of the DoS then I shall hang my sword on the wall and duel no longer, but I have more faith in those I call friend. Again, I do not question the loyalties of the Baron's but when one thread runs constant in all staments of loyalty, it shows a pattern. And in the absence of information, people are prone to make up their own.
I do not consider Dalamar a poor dueler, quite the opposite, but just because we are teammates and friends does not mean that I cannot disagree with him. I do not feel that should inhibit our friendship because dueling is conflict. Disagreement is life. Human beings should be able to rise above opposing stances when they are truly friends.
Forgive me, if I have offended anyone, but I believe friendships should be able to with stand opposing stances. My marriage to Helix has and I have never, nor has she, swallowed our beliefs just to keep the peace.
~Brian Girvin