Tables Turning.

[DoS Archive]

From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 18:55:19 EDT

"I insult the action (ie, the action of being fickle, the action of throwing personal attacks, etc), not the person. If someone wants to take personal insult, that's their problem."

And yet I expressed regret at having to take my course of action against Dalamar, because of his actions; I have yet to actually insult anyone, save perhaps a witty retort to Adonai's ventings; I have stated repeatedly that this is not in the least about personalities... but you began directing your crusade at me, Sidartha, and you blithely ignore the insulting comments made by those who support the Overlord.

I'll do you the courtesy of not uttering the word that seems to get you the most riled, although I suspect you know what that word is. Nine letters. Three syllables. Greek.

~irm

[DoS Archive]

From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 18:59:30 EDT

"So you are saying that calling someone a coward is not insulting them personally?"

I would be very interested to see where Kalamere or I ever called Dalamar a coward, unless perhaps certain comments were read that way, despite not having said so. I would chalk that up to over-sensitivity on the parts of people who look for insults at every corner.

On the other hand, Sidartha, I have been called a coward directly because I refuse to lift my blade to challenge Dalamar myself, yet you don't say a word about that.

I was wrong. I cannot stop myself from uttering the word.

Hypocrite.

I remain,

Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords.

[DoS Archive]

From: karnafexx@aol.com (Karnafexx)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 19:51:51 EDT

Well Kids,

Brian is right...

I like Ian, I like Kal, I like Dal...I tolerate Sid :) and I've known most of ya' fer years.

I'm gonna stop my part on this arguement unless somethin' is said ta' drag me back in.

Of course, that ain't too hard ta' do. ::lopsided grin::


::Written in choppy red crayola::

Billy Ray
AKA: Karnafexx
"Simply the Best"

[DoS Archive]

From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 20:22:19 EDT

Iain said it for me, I cannot recall anyone calling Dalamar a coward directly. Billy, Adonai, and Jeff said they felt that Ianin and Kalamere were calling Dalamar a coward. I have gone back though this series of debates and the one relating to Kalamere's challenge. Repeated this day. I find that there is one side that is quick to call names, usually under the guise of defending honor.

I personally cannot recall a time that I met a dishonorable actions with more dishonorable actions.

I wish it to be known that I, Brian Girvin, am not taking sides in this debate merely trying to direct it to a more useful purpose that I shall perhaps impart in some greater detail in the future. I find that attacking people verbally rarely furthers a point, but the calm discussion of ideas can creat a healthy change rather than a revolution.

Perhaps if both sides endeavored to have a more open mind to the other's point of view the insults would cease, but someone must take the first step. As my dear Ma always said, "If you see the problem, don't yell about it, fix it."

Constant,
~Brian Girvin

[DoS Archive]

From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 20:24:57 EDT

Toleration is all we can expect form the likes of you Billy Ray.

For you decision to move a bit higher, at least in this regard, I applaud you.


I wish also to restate that I have no axes to grind on either side of this debate, for at my present rank I am not in a position to be able to make a change of any kind.

Constant,
~Brian Girvin

[DoS Archive]

From: dukeuziei@aol.com (Duke UzieI)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 21:11:56 EDT

Girvin, and others,

I do not think that at ANY time I have said that Lord Mackenzie or Lord Kalamere have called Dalamar a coward. My perception of this matter is a tad more acute than most of the perhiperal debaters and debatees within this very political argument.
To be more accurate you might say that I, in my part of this argument, of which I have been fairly silent as of late, that I questioned Iain and Kalameres' methods of expressing their displeasure with the Overlord. At no time did I fall to the level of playing childish name calling games with either of the of the aforementioned pair, nor did I state that they called, felt or said Dalamar was a coward. If they had....this would be information
I am not privy to.
And to address another thing. I swore loyalty to the Overlord when I gained this ring, and many have done all they could to attempt to point out that loyalty in this situation is dishonorable or wrong. To this I say, Fie!, Fie upon you all. Loyalty is not something that can be swayed by present political swings, loyalty to a lord or a friend, is not something so easily cast aside because of popular opinion, those that do so have no true
conception of honor, or loyalty for that matter. To be loyal, and then throw it aside to please the masses is nothing but the hallmark of a coward. And that my friends....is when I shall use that word.
So.....no matter the reasons, or the actions, my blade stands behind the Overlord. Because I swore...on word of honor, my self, my sword and my good right arm unto him. And thusly I shall stand with him no matter how I am affected by the fickle among us that feel that personal honor and word can be cast aside to please themselves or those they swear fealty to. If this ship burns and sinks to the bottom of the briny deeps of political
upheaveal and scorches in the flames of the torch of revolution, then I, thusly, shall go down with, ever at the side of the Overlord.
And that my friends, is the true definition of loyalty and honor.


Regards,
~Adonai Uziel~
~DragonLord of RhyDin~
~Baron of the Seventh~

[DoS Archive]

From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 22:51:17 EDT

::writes angrily::

Damnit!! I didn't direct anything at anyone. If I had wanted to direct my comments to you, Iain, I would have said "you, Iain, are throwing insults at people"....I did not do this.

You want to call me a hypocrite, fine. I've never directed any of my comments at any one person, only at the group who insist on insulting people, rather than criticizing the actions, but you guys seem to want to direct your anger at me for something I didn't do.

Never, EVER, in this debate have I told you or Kal or ANYONE, that they were being insulting. I never said they weren't, either, but that makes no difference.

Show me where I have personally named names, and I will gladly eat my words, with relish.

I am, and will always be,
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress@Arms
Journeywoman, TDL
Dracoern Highlands

[DoS Archive]

From: drakewynx@aol.com (Drakewyn x)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 23:23:43 EDT

::Chuckles softly a writes::

Now if only there were a way to sink the boat with just Adonai on board...

Just kidding... You said your piece rather well there Uz... I'm impressed. But I do believe you -did- fling some mildly insulting language Iain's way... I'm sure someone can find what I'm refering to.


Lady Drake.

[DoS Archive]

From: dukeuziei@aol.com (Duke UzieI)
Date: 23 Apr 1998 00:23:44 EDT

Drake,

Oh yes....I admit that I got quite acidic with Lord Mackenzie, as I am oft to do with those that wish to tango cerebrally with me. I did not say I was not slightly insulting. I said I did not state that Iain or Kal called Dalamar a coward, and I also said that I did not lower myself to name calling, as you will find, by pouring through my posts, that I did not and mayhaps the strongest characterization I used would have been *old man* or
*blind*. But then...in Iain's case I believe both apply at times. Thusly he can be and has been before, a blind old man.
Now, that was not nice, but I do not believe I would define that as insulting. Believe me ::smirks:: We'd be having MUCH more fun if I was being insulting.

::grins and stabs the last bit of William's red crayola through the paper to attach the post to the board.::

~Adonai Uziel~
~DragonLord of RhyDin~
~Baron of the Seventh~

[DoS Archive]

From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 23 Apr 1998 02:50:31 EDT

"Iain~

Perhaps you should read my post again, and this time, past my first paragraph. I said....everyone is entitled to their beliefs. They are perfectly entitled to tell Dal that they believe that it was wrong to do what he did. What they don't have a right to do is to insult him and those that wish to stand by him, calling him a coward and calling them "blind followers".

There are consequences to be had, sure...but being insulted and having people call you names is not one of them."

You stated when I objected to this that you were not accusing me of being insulting, but the fact remains that I have referred to certain parties as blind followers of the Overlord - specifically for defending him physically while expressing, in private or in public, displeasure with his actions. In that light, despite your denial, I must note that the comment was directed at me, and applied to my convictions directly. I will grant,
perhaps, that you were unaware of my feelings regarding that issue.

However, you cannot say that your comments were not directed toward Kalamere, since it was his assertion of blind loyalty which began this entire discussion, and as such, your statement that it applied to nobody is inherently flawed.

In referring to blind loyalty, and my perceptions thereof, I speak not of this particular instance, per se, but of another; still, there are current Barons whose skill I respect beyond beyond measure, and whom I consider (or did) to be a very loyal to me personally as friends or otherwise, who have done just this, and continue to do so. Which, of course, points out in glaring detail that one's loyalty to a friend without title is inherently
less than that to a friend without it, and that, my friends, is what I classify as blind loyalty.

If such is considered an insult, then perhaps the parties in question are either overly sensitive to criticism, or feeling a bit of guilt.

I remain,

Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords.

[DoS Archive]

From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 23 Apr 1998 02:54:22 EDT

"Which, of course, points out in glaring detail that one's loyalty to a friend without title is inherently less than that to a friend without it, and that, my friends, is what I classify as blind loyalty."

This should have read,

"Which, of course, points out in glaring detail that one's loyalty to a friend without title is inherently less than that to a friend with it, and that, my friends, is what I classify as blind loyalty."

My apologies for any confusion.

~irm

[DoS Archive]

From: daemon102@aol.com (Daemon102)
Date: 23 Apr 1998 06:51:25 EDT



"I wish also to restate that I have no axes to grind on either side of this debate, for at my present rank I am not in a position to be able to make a change of any kind."

Oh but you are Brian, and off to a fine start I might add.

Daemon Satyriasis {S d102
Dueler of Swords {S devilman
Red Dragon Innkeeper {S rdi_dae
F.E.S.o.R.
[X]

[DoS Archive]

From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 23 Apr 1998 10:15:05 EDT

On a different side of da issue...

Ta all who seem ta bring up Leto's name in a poor light,

Leto has been a Baron, Leto EARNED his Overlordship, Leto is a damn good dueler

Leto respected da wishes of his loyalest baron, I have never been more willin' ta put my rank on da line fer an Overlord, and I did twice.

Overlords allowin' champions ta show deir loyalty isn't a bad quality or political flaw.

And as fer dis whole "Leto is da classic example of abuse", deir have been others.

Get a new scapegoat or just state yer opinion, don't always attach his name.

He's was a good overlord, he's a good man, and he's a good friend.


~J

[DoS Archive]

From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 23 Apr 1998 14:18:54 EDT

Jeff~

I used his name, myself, because I had closer dealings with Leto's actions as Overlord than with anyone else.

Of course there were others that were probably as bad, or worse. But I'm not going to talk about what I don't know.


~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress@Arms
Journeywoman, TDL
Dracoern Highlands

[DoS Archive]

From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 23 Apr 1998 14:31:13 EDT

You stated when I objected to this that you were not accusing me of being insulting, but the fact remains that I have referred to certain parties as blind followers of the Overlord - specifically for defending him physically while expressing, in private or in public, displeasure with his actions. In that light, despite your denial, I must note that the comment was directed at me, and applied to
my convictions directly. I will grant,
perhaps, that you were unaware of my feelings regarding that issue.<<

The fact remains that while I criticized your calling people "blind followers", I had never made any verbal attacks on your person, such as saying that you were a "jerk" or an "idiot". This is what I meant by personal insults. The comment was not directed at only you, it was directed at anyone that was insulting someone's person, rather than criticizing their actions.

Ah, hell, now you're making me run around in circles with this bit. ;) It isn't my intention to argue the fact, so let's just leave it at that shall we?

Which, of course, points out in glaring detail that one's loyalty to a friend without title is inherently
less than that to a friend without it, and that, my friends, is what I classify as blind loyalty.

Well, it's always been my opinion (I can't speak for anyone else), that loyalty to someone should go beyond this sport. There's a big world out there, beyond this Arena.



~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress@Arms
Journeywoman, TDL
Dracoern Highlands