From: qnluthien@aol.com (QnLuthien)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 22:48:56 EDT
~@~
I would rather divest my ring than be personally judged for my chosen alignment based on the actions of the Overlord. For that would imply that I am not capable of choosing my own path.
To me, Loyalty is a state of being, a state of the heart, and a choice that I have made that runs deeper than any one decision, any one duel, any breech of taboo. It goes beyond what would appear to be the symbiotic relationship between loyal Baron and Overlord. I am loyal to Dalamar as a friend, but I am loyal to the Overlordship for my belief in the honor and glory of the Sport. If the general dueling population believes that I should be so
fickle as to switch my alignment based on Dalamar's testing of a Baron, I would say to them.. "Go ye hither and pound sand!".
But if they should come to me and say.. "You have become lesser in our eyes because of your loyalty"... then I would bid them say it now. And I will pull this long worn ring from my finger and deliver it into Helix's hands.
::steels herself to back up her convictions with the action if the need arises::
Reply to me as you will, so that I might take the appropriate steps. I would rather know your thoughts, all, than to be whispered of in secret or scorned unawares.
I am, as I have always been..
Luthien
Baron 9
Convictions of the 9th Baron.
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 22:56:30 EDT
Iain looked at the post, and began to respond... then, on the third paragraph, cast it aside and began anew.
"Luthien:
I would have hoped that you, of all people, would understand that this is not a personal judgement of any person's loyalty. Indeed, I have said as much several times in the last days.
Apparently, I was mistaken. Your loyalty and principles, of course, are without question.
I remain,
You remember."
Date: 17 Apr 1998 22:56:30 EDT
Iain looked at the post, and began to respond... then, on the third paragraph, cast it aside and began anew.
"Luthien:
I would have hoped that you, of all people, would understand that this is not a personal judgement of any person's loyalty. Indeed, I have said as much several times in the last days.
Apparently, I was mistaken. Your loyalty and principles, of course, are without question.
I remain,
You remember."
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From: new420@aol.com (New 420)
Date: 18 Apr 1998 15:52:35 EDT
::rather wondering how a person can be expected to "go hither"::
Date: 18 Apr 1998 15:52:35 EDT
::rather wondering how a person can be expected to "go hither"::
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From: drakewynx@aol.com (Drakewyn x)
Date: 18 Apr 1998 19:57:13 EDT
It appears that Luthien has stated this case better than I could, but I still have something to say.
If, for whatever reason, I should decide to make a challenge for a Baron's ring... and if, by some miricle of fate, I should win that ring... I would most willingly declare my loyalty to Dalamar. He has, in my opinion, shown the skill and ability, both in the ring and outside of it, to be the Overlord.
At this point I must also add one other thing... If Evan had, by some even larger miricle of fate, managed to become the Overlord... I would have been among the first to issue my challenge to him. While he is a fine duelist... he lacks that which, in my opinion, would make him a fine Overlord.
Loyalty to one's friends is, in my opinion, the key part of friendship. While I would, and have, question the actions of a friend... I would never act against them, unless there were -no- other option. And what of you Iain? What of you Kalamere? Have you sought other options?
Lady Drake.
Date: 18 Apr 1998 19:57:13 EDT
It appears that Luthien has stated this case better than I could, but I still have something to say.
If, for whatever reason, I should decide to make a challenge for a Baron's ring... and if, by some miricle of fate, I should win that ring... I would most willingly declare my loyalty to Dalamar. He has, in my opinion, shown the skill and ability, both in the ring and outside of it, to be the Overlord.
At this point I must also add one other thing... If Evan had, by some even larger miricle of fate, managed to become the Overlord... I would have been among the first to issue my challenge to him. While he is a fine duelist... he lacks that which, in my opinion, would make him a fine Overlord.
Loyalty to one's friends is, in my opinion, the key part of friendship. While I would, and have, question the actions of a friend... I would never act against them, unless there were -no- other option. And what of you Iain? What of you Kalamere? Have you sought other options?
Lady Drake.
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From: dukeuziei@aol.com (Duke UzieI)
Date: 18 Apr 1998 21:34:14 EDT
GO YE FORTH AND POUND SAND
::echoing Luth with a smile of conviction::
Date: 18 Apr 1998 21:34:14 EDT
GO YE FORTH AND POUND SAND
::echoing Luth with a smile of conviction::
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From: karnafexx@aol.com (Karnafexx)
Date: 18 Apr 1998 22:46:05 EDT
Luthy,
Ya' got a nice tush....
I don't know if that'll get me anythin' but slapped, but come hither and let my know babe.
::Written in choppy red crayola::
Billy Ray
AKA: Karnafexx
"Simply the Best"
Date: 18 Apr 1998 22:46:05 EDT
Luthy,
Ya' got a nice tush....
I don't know if that'll get me anythin' but slapped, but come hither and let my know babe.
::Written in choppy red crayola::
Billy Ray
AKA: Karnafexx
"Simply the Best"
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From: stevegx@aol.com (SteveG X)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 00:53:18 EDT
Hmm...the loyals helping each other solidify their own baseless arguments. Sounds interesting. The first thing I would like to say is that I can see valid reasons to stand loyal to the Overlord. The Nameless Baron put out all that history and number stuff, and that seems fine, for I am not one to argue much with straight facts, though I believe the conclusions and opinions he draws are not correct. The rest have valid emotional
attachments, but is that really enough? I shall attempt to see...
I request a reason to go "pound sand" just because someone says to. I have little patience for arguments that are based on clichés or short bylines. It tells me that they are looking for a way to somehow come up with something constructive out of nothing. But let's forget about all that for now, because what I said could be just as baseless....
You will stand loyal to a friend, taking no action against him unless there is no other option. Fine. That is the strongest form of friendship I have ever seen, and there really is nothing wrong with that emotionally. However, when one gets past emotional factors, what is there left with? My loyalty was unwavering until I made my first challenge, when: Rand had accidently been listed as the wrong alignment. I pressed it even though Rand was
Loyal, and the Overlord came with his test. This was the first time *ever* in his reign to use it. I beat both of them, and found myself with the possibility of having to support someone whose policy just turned about-face against me. In this case I had that option, and it was certainly viable. I turned Renegade for being unable to support someone who before that I had utmost feelings of loyalty towards.
Now, I did not have a friendship with Dal. And none of you are being directly effected by the Overlord's actions in any negative manner. Still, there were some people who turned on the Overlord due to his use of the test then. He did not fall then, for there was little outcry. I was really distressed after he tested me *again* in my next challenge. This I consider taking too far. Although I was shutout...why was the test applied again? To
merely lower my chance of succeeding, not to prove my worthiness which had already been shown. This kind of testing I cannot support.
Now that Dal has taken it to an extreme of testing a *sitting*, not just ex-, Baron, more have turned, and enough to create an uproar. Some that had relationships turned on principles that go above and beyond any relationships they had. Most Loyals, including all the Barons, see it as justified, and I can't blame them. But using catch phrases and bonds of friendship for arguments?
Friendships are not always good things. Friends can blind you as to the right thing to do. Staying loyal to a friend is fine, but you still have to agree with what they're doing, or make them change, change your mind, break off your friendship. And friends can turn around and stab you in the back whenever they feel it suits them. Now, I do not imply that this will happen, but I merely throw it out a a possibility. I would never think Dal to do
that, but that is hardly the point here. Friendship is not a good reason in and by itself for loyalty. As much as you think it is, there are countless others who believe otherwise, or believe as you do but are on the other side.
Now, I may not have made my point very strongly here, I do admit. But with the way your views are, I'd have to change your whole value system, something I know I am not able to do by myself. If you think friends are supposed to stay loyal no matter what, no matter what I say I will not be able to change your mind. It will take something else.
Most of what I said here is hardly new. But I ask you to ask yourself why you are friends with someone, and what that friendship means to you, when they do something you don't like. And it appears that the contingent using the "frienship" defense, are not the ones arguing that the Overlord is right, although I might be wrong on that. So I ask everyone to really think about what had gone on recently. I know I have, and as I've thought about is
more, I've turned more and more. It is amazing what thinking can do when presented with a dilemna. I've gone from lighthearted posts to ones that try to drive deep into the heart of the debate. I initally didn't care that much until I realized all that it meant. Maybe thinking about it will turn you the other way, I don't know, but it appears to me know that friendship, not rationale, is driving whatever thinking is going on in the Loyalist camp.
Sorry if I wasted anyone's time.
-Steven Glowacki
Date: 19 Apr 1998 00:53:18 EDT
Hmm...the loyals helping each other solidify their own baseless arguments. Sounds interesting. The first thing I would like to say is that I can see valid reasons to stand loyal to the Overlord. The Nameless Baron put out all that history and number stuff, and that seems fine, for I am not one to argue much with straight facts, though I believe the conclusions and opinions he draws are not correct. The rest have valid emotional
attachments, but is that really enough? I shall attempt to see...
I request a reason to go "pound sand" just because someone says to. I have little patience for arguments that are based on clichés or short bylines. It tells me that they are looking for a way to somehow come up with something constructive out of nothing. But let's forget about all that for now, because what I said could be just as baseless....
You will stand loyal to a friend, taking no action against him unless there is no other option. Fine. That is the strongest form of friendship I have ever seen, and there really is nothing wrong with that emotionally. However, when one gets past emotional factors, what is there left with? My loyalty was unwavering until I made my first challenge, when: Rand had accidently been listed as the wrong alignment. I pressed it even though Rand was
Loyal, and the Overlord came with his test. This was the first time *ever* in his reign to use it. I beat both of them, and found myself with the possibility of having to support someone whose policy just turned about-face against me. In this case I had that option, and it was certainly viable. I turned Renegade for being unable to support someone who before that I had utmost feelings of loyalty towards.
Now, I did not have a friendship with Dal. And none of you are being directly effected by the Overlord's actions in any negative manner. Still, there were some people who turned on the Overlord due to his use of the test then. He did not fall then, for there was little outcry. I was really distressed after he tested me *again* in my next challenge. This I consider taking too far. Although I was shutout...why was the test applied again? To
merely lower my chance of succeeding, not to prove my worthiness which had already been shown. This kind of testing I cannot support.
Now that Dal has taken it to an extreme of testing a *sitting*, not just ex-, Baron, more have turned, and enough to create an uproar. Some that had relationships turned on principles that go above and beyond any relationships they had. Most Loyals, including all the Barons, see it as justified, and I can't blame them. But using catch phrases and bonds of friendship for arguments?
Friendships are not always good things. Friends can blind you as to the right thing to do. Staying loyal to a friend is fine, but you still have to agree with what they're doing, or make them change, change your mind, break off your friendship. And friends can turn around and stab you in the back whenever they feel it suits them. Now, I do not imply that this will happen, but I merely throw it out a a possibility. I would never think Dal to do
that, but that is hardly the point here. Friendship is not a good reason in and by itself for loyalty. As much as you think it is, there are countless others who believe otherwise, or believe as you do but are on the other side.
Now, I may not have made my point very strongly here, I do admit. But with the way your views are, I'd have to change your whole value system, something I know I am not able to do by myself. If you think friends are supposed to stay loyal no matter what, no matter what I say I will not be able to change your mind. It will take something else.
Most of what I said here is hardly new. But I ask you to ask yourself why you are friends with someone, and what that friendship means to you, when they do something you don't like. And it appears that the contingent using the "frienship" defense, are not the ones arguing that the Overlord is right, although I might be wrong on that. So I ask everyone to really think about what had gone on recently. I know I have, and as I've thought about is
more, I've turned more and more. It is amazing what thinking can do when presented with a dilemna. I've gone from lighthearted posts to ones that try to drive deep into the heart of the debate. I initally didn't care that much until I realized all that it meant. Maybe thinking about it will turn you the other way, I don't know, but it appears to me know that friendship, not rationale, is driving whatever thinking is going on in the Loyalist camp.
Sorry if I wasted anyone's time.
-Steven Glowacki
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From: qnluthien@aol.com (QnLuthien)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 02:55:37 EDT
Go Forth, Come hither... :P~
The sand is everywhere here so take your pick and pound away!
Ok, so you can't go hither, fine..
..are you sure you can't go hither? Go hither and yon?
::already blush-red to her eartips, lapse of grace and all that, will pay cash to be able to live this one down:::
I am, STILL
Luthien
Date: 19 Apr 1998 02:55:37 EDT
Go Forth, Come hither... :P~
The sand is everywhere here so take your pick and pound away!
Ok, so you can't go hither, fine..
..are you sure you can't go hither? Go hither and yon?
::already blush-red to her eartips, lapse of grace and all that, will pay cash to be able to live this one down:::
I am, STILL
Luthien
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From: drakewynx@aol.com (Drakewyn x)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 06:29:46 EDT
Steve:
When it comes to friendship, what other factors are there supposed to be, other than emotional ones? Loyalty is not friendship, but friendship -requires- loyalty... at least to me. As I explained, if one of my friends does something I consider wrong, I let them know in no uncertain terms. When I felt Dalamar was over-using the Test of Worthiness, I made my opinion known. Now, when I feel that he was justified in testing Evan, I stand behind
his decision.
I am not loyal to Dalamar because I think he's "the best dueler" or because "his honor is above reproach." I am loyal because I feel he is a good -person-, and a friend. If you find something wrong with that, then I pity you.
Lady Drake.
Date: 19 Apr 1998 06:29:46 EDT
Steve:
When it comes to friendship, what other factors are there supposed to be, other than emotional ones? Loyalty is not friendship, but friendship -requires- loyalty... at least to me. As I explained, if one of my friends does something I consider wrong, I let them know in no uncertain terms. When I felt Dalamar was over-using the Test of Worthiness, I made my opinion known. Now, when I feel that he was justified in testing Evan, I stand behind
his decision.
I am not loyal to Dalamar because I think he's "the best dueler" or because "his honor is above reproach." I am loyal because I feel he is a good -person-, and a friend. If you find something wrong with that, then I pity you.
Lady Drake.
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From: stevegx@aol.com (SteveG X)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 12:04:19 EDT
Drake:
<<Now, when I feel that he was justified in testing Evan, I stand behind
his decision.>>
This I have nothing against. It is those that disagree with the decision, yet stay loyal due to "friendship" that I have a problem with. It seems that this debate has come down to what we expect of a friend, and what exactly a friendship means to each other. Since I have absolutely no chance to change how people think of friendship, my only hope is to somehow do my arguing in another manner.
And pitying me because I have a different outlook on life and friendship will get you nowhere. I live my life, you live yours, and if we can convince each other to live differently, so be it, but don't say some else is below you because they have different values that do not affect you directly.
I can really see this discussion is getting no where, so I think I really should stop trying to convince the iron-hearted Loyal's that they are wrong. Truly, it would be easier to do that than trying to remove them, but I will do what ever is necessary so long as I can.
-Steve
Date: 19 Apr 1998 12:04:19 EDT
Drake:
<<Now, when I feel that he was justified in testing Evan, I stand behind
his decision.>>
This I have nothing against. It is those that disagree with the decision, yet stay loyal due to "friendship" that I have a problem with. It seems that this debate has come down to what we expect of a friend, and what exactly a friendship means to each other. Since I have absolutely no chance to change how people think of friendship, my only hope is to somehow do my arguing in another manner.
And pitying me because I have a different outlook on life and friendship will get you nowhere. I live my life, you live yours, and if we can convince each other to live differently, so be it, but don't say some else is below you because they have different values that do not affect you directly.
I can really see this discussion is getting no where, so I think I really should stop trying to convince the iron-hearted Loyal's that they are wrong. Truly, it would be easier to do that than trying to remove them, but I will do what ever is necessary so long as I can.
-Steve
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 19 Apr 1998 17:20:29 EDT
Luth~
Bravo for sticking up for your beliefs, no matter what insults are thrown like dung at you! I, for one, salute you for being an unmoving rock amid the storm.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress@Arms
Journeywoman, TDL
Dracoern Highlands
Date: 19 Apr 1998 17:20:29 EDT
Luth~
Bravo for sticking up for your beliefs, no matter what insults are thrown like dung at you! I, for one, salute you for being an unmoving rock amid the storm.
~Sidartha Elgarette~
Mistress@Arms
Journeywoman, TDL
Dracoern Highlands