From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 21 Apr 1998 18:32:58 EDT
It is a curious concept the notion of honor in the Duel of Swords. The word is bandied about like an elixir that will cover all actions and justify every slight or insult. The fact is that honor demands more. Why is honor tossed around so often as a justification for one's side in an argument? I cannot say with impunity, but I believe it cheapens and lessens the power and the meaning of the
word with each casual use. I have lived my whole life by a code of honor, and yet, what passes so often for honor in the Arena, is not even close to that by which I was raised. For an example, can an assassin be considered honorable? They might think so, and even follow a code of honor as I do, but are they "Honorable"? Their own honor in this case is often in their own minds and not to those who have lost loved ones to his profession, or even
the majority of society.
So let us examine the empirical evidence of what Honor means.
1 a : good name or public esteem : REPUTATION
b : a showing of merited respect : RECOGNITION
Both of these definitions deal with "merit", or "character" and/or "conduct" deserving reward, honor or esteem. In this case, as will often appear, honor deals with how one's own actions appear and are perceived by the general populace. Thus, others may construe my personal code of ethics to be dishonorable, although to me they are highly honorable. One must always remember that titles and awards can be won with ease and simple popularity. True
respect (which leads so often from taking the publicly perceived honorable path) more likely requires a consistent course of actions.
2 : PRIVILEGE
By virtue of the rules guiding the Duel of Swords, the Overlord and Barons are privileged. The Baron's Council, Test of Worthiness, and added rights to moves are all privileges. As with all privileges, there is a responsibility to maintaining respect and merit.
3 : a person of superior standing
Superior standing, a curious phrase to relate to Honor. A person who shows excellence (or superiority) in something often holds a position from which one may assert or enforce their own views on legal rights and duties in that area. The often hold, as well, a position in which they have held up a standard of achievement to be "equaled" to his competitors.
4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : CREDIT
One who's worth brings respect. This could refer to title or money save for the word credit. Honor, in this meaning, would be shown in a statement like, "Helix is a credit to the DoS staff." This is a statement of honor, as opposed to "Dalamar is the overlord." While this is not false, it is not honorable either, unless credit is given to his struggle to maintain his position or some other means that makes his holding the title a credit to DoS.
5 : the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon
This relates to ships, shields, or a coat of arms. Therefore it is not fully applicable without making some sort of theological leap in language that I am not willing to make.
6 : an evidence or symbol of distinction: as
a : an exalted title or rank (Overlord, Baron, and even Warlord)
b (1) : BADGE, DECORATION
(2) : a ceremonial rite or observance <buried with full military ~s>
c : an award in a contest or field of competition
d : a gesture of deference : BOW
These are the gestures of giving honor. I have always bowed to the callers when dueling. I feel they are the heart and soul of DoS and they work because of their love of the sport and therefore deserve all honor from those of us who use them. And they honor me with their friendship and kindness.
7 : CHASTITY, PURITY
Purity is a thing worth fighting anyone over, but maintaining purity requires constant vigilance and questioning of not only the motives of others, but your own as well. Most people are not truly pure because they have learned to lie to the person we all learn to deceive most easily, ourselves.
8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY
b : one's word given as a guarantee of performance
This is honor in relation to others. If I go about waging war on all nations for any cause, how can stand before a people and call my land a city of refuge and peace. This is the sense of the word were one traditionally finds their honor insulted. To state it a bit differently: Honor is a mode, or standard, of personal behavior based on a guiding philosophy or a system of moral standards which is carried out in a swift and impassioned manner.
This is honor in self, in one's actions, and in the public eye. One who believes strongly in a thing and states to those that are their friends and then reverses that stance may have their honor questioned. This is rightfully so. If I say to a person that I will meet them and give them gold for whatever purpose, and I send an assistant, or even an ally to do what I said I would do, I have called my honor in to question. In order for one's word to
be their bond, their word *must* be their bond above all else.
Some synonyms:
HONOR, HOMAGE, REVERENCE, DEFERENCE mean respect and esteem shown to another.
HONOR may apply to the recognition of one's right to great respect or to any expression of such recognition (the nomination is an honor).
HOMAGE adds the implication of accompanying praise (paying homage to those overlords of the past).
REVERENCE implies profound respect mingled with love, devotion, or awe (great reverence for my father).
DEFERENCE implies a yielding or submitting to another's judgment or preference out of respect or reverence (showed no deference to their elders).
What I find most curious in this sport is how no one mentions honesty when they speak of honor. Honesty is a crucial joining of all the definitions of honor. If one cannot be honest, they cannot be trusted. If one cannot be trusted, they cannot be respected. If one cannot be respected, they cannot be honorable or characterized by integrity, as one guided by a high sense of honor and duty. Honor requires one to be true to ones self and retain
that inner truth while working for the betterment of those around them. There is no Court of Honor in the Duel of Swords save this place to lay charges before the Court of public opinion. The responses to those questions show the level of honor in not only their meaning, but their tone as well as duplicity. In all honor must reign supreme, for as the base of honor is honesty, the base of loyalty is trust. It is fact that without honesty there is
no trust.
Some words that are the opposite of honor: contempt, despite, disdain, scorn, disregard, neglect, and slighting. In short treating others with a lack of respect, no matter the cause, is to dishonor your own person.
Take this as you will, for I am not attacking anyone personally. What I oppose is the idea that honor is anything other than respect and honesty most especially when one spits on others for voicing their concerns and yet feels they have the right to honor.
No one has an absolute right to honor. Honor is earned continually and there is never a time one can sit back and disregard the consequences of their actions because they have achieved a position of honor.
Constant,
~Brian Girvin
On the Truth of Honor
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From: sircassius@aol.com (SirCassius)
Date: 21 Apr 1998 19:51:14 EDT
::strolls to the boards preparing to read the normal crap posts and is suprised to find a rather neatly, nicely written post by Brian Girvin. Reads the post in full, nodding his head at some points and at other points, stopping entirely to reflect upon the well spoken words. When he finishes he cant help but think that if everyone reads this post, DoS will be a better place (not too cliche eh?). As he turns on his heel, ignoring all of the other
posts, his hand rests on the hilt of Hubris, slightly uplifting his black cloak with the point of the scabbard, not unlike a covered tail. His mismatched eyes glimmer with revitalized hope. Exit::
Date: 21 Apr 1998 19:51:14 EDT
::strolls to the boards preparing to read the normal crap posts and is suprised to find a rather neatly, nicely written post by Brian Girvin. Reads the post in full, nodding his head at some points and at other points, stopping entirely to reflect upon the well spoken words. When he finishes he cant help but think that if everyone reads this post, DoS will be a better place (not too cliche eh?). As he turns on his heel, ignoring all of the other
posts, his hand rests on the hilt of Hubris, slightly uplifting his black cloak with the point of the scabbard, not unlike a covered tail. His mismatched eyes glimmer with revitalized hope. Exit::
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From: drakewynx@aol.com (Drakewyn x)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 03:25:27 EDT
::Upon taking the time to read Brian's words, she finds herself unable to pass on without making some comment.::
Lords and Ladies.
In recent months I have refered to myself as the "Honest WarLady." And now I find I can put some explination forth as to why I have, and will continue to do so.
Without naming any names, I have often heard individuals who will refuse to divulge their rank when another requests it before... or even worse, after... accepting a duel. I find such to be merely common courtesy. I take the time to keep track of the standings, and when I feel I should duel only peers, I politely inform others who ask me of that fact. I do -not- simply ignore them... unless, by sheer volume, the conversation of the Arena
drowns them out.
I also refer to myself as the "Honest WarLady" because I am just that... a WarLady with the skills to match. Should any step into the ring with me, they had better be prepared to face my full skills. Upon occasion, I will tell someone that I will hold back a little, but always with the provisio that I will use my full skills should I deem it prudent.
By the standards of Honor Brian has put forth here, I am not terribly honorable... I have lied when I felt it best to lie. I have, upon two occasions, walked in the more dangerous sections of the city, for the purpose of being attacked by those who would prey upon the innocent. And one of those times, in a fit of rage perhaps, I even chased one who was running away... using my magicks to catch and kill him.
No one is perfect, the least of all me... yet I seek to make the world a better place for my daughter. Honesty. Integrity. Loyalty. Friendship. Respect. These are not just words to me, they are part of who and what I am. There are times when I shall fall short, but I shall ever strive to better myself. For in bettering one's self, one can better the world... and in bettering the world, one has done a service for all time.
Lady Drake.
Date: 22 Apr 1998 03:25:27 EDT
::Upon taking the time to read Brian's words, she finds herself unable to pass on without making some comment.::
Lords and Ladies.
In recent months I have refered to myself as the "Honest WarLady." And now I find I can put some explination forth as to why I have, and will continue to do so.
Without naming any names, I have often heard individuals who will refuse to divulge their rank when another requests it before... or even worse, after... accepting a duel. I find such to be merely common courtesy. I take the time to keep track of the standings, and when I feel I should duel only peers, I politely inform others who ask me of that fact. I do -not- simply ignore them... unless, by sheer volume, the conversation of the Arena
drowns them out.
I also refer to myself as the "Honest WarLady" because I am just that... a WarLady with the skills to match. Should any step into the ring with me, they had better be prepared to face my full skills. Upon occasion, I will tell someone that I will hold back a little, but always with the provisio that I will use my full skills should I deem it prudent.
By the standards of Honor Brian has put forth here, I am not terribly honorable... I have lied when I felt it best to lie. I have, upon two occasions, walked in the more dangerous sections of the city, for the purpose of being attacked by those who would prey upon the innocent. And one of those times, in a fit of rage perhaps, I even chased one who was running away... using my magicks to catch and kill him.
No one is perfect, the least of all me... yet I seek to make the world a better place for my daughter. Honesty. Integrity. Loyalty. Friendship. Respect. These are not just words to me, they are part of who and what I am. There are times when I shall fall short, but I shall ever strive to better myself. For in bettering one's self, one can better the world... and in bettering the world, one has done a service for all time.
Lady Drake.
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 14:15:58 EDT
Search within for Truth; search within for Honor; search within for Respect.
For if such exists it is only there it shall be found.
For tis thine actions which shall ever speak louder than even the clash of blades within and without the hallowed cavern wherin abides the sanctuary of the Rings.
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare
Date: 22 Apr 1998 14:15:58 EDT
Search within for Truth; search within for Honor; search within for Respect.
For if such exists it is only there it shall be found.
For tis thine actions which shall ever speak louder than even the clash of blades within and without the hallowed cavern wherin abides the sanctuary of the Rings.
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare
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From: karnafexx@aol.com (Karnafexx)
Date: 22 Apr 1998 20:03:21 EDT
As I usually say:
"Honor doesn't pay the bills."
People have called me honorable at times, I don't consider myself very much so though. I will say I'm honest, ta' the point of brutality. I'll tell anyone what I think, even if it's upsetting ta' that person, not always tactfull but it's my way. I change my mind when I want but if I promise something ta' someone, even someone I don't like, then I stick too it. It'd take somethin' monumental fer me ta' go back on a promise.
As fer Cinnomins and homonids, hell they're all just words n' the meanin' of words are relative ta' who ya' happen ta' be talkin' too.
If ya' can look yerself in the mirror and not be ashamed, then yer doin' alright.
::Written in choppy red crayola::
Billy Ray
AKA: Karnafexx
"Simply the Best"
Date: 22 Apr 1998 20:03:21 EDT
As I usually say:
"Honor doesn't pay the bills."
People have called me honorable at times, I don't consider myself very much so though. I will say I'm honest, ta' the point of brutality. I'll tell anyone what I think, even if it's upsetting ta' that person, not always tactfull but it's my way. I change my mind when I want but if I promise something ta' someone, even someone I don't like, then I stick too it. It'd take somethin' monumental fer me ta' go back on a promise.
As fer Cinnomins and homonids, hell they're all just words n' the meanin' of words are relative ta' who ya' happen ta' be talkin' too.
If ya' can look yerself in the mirror and not be ashamed, then yer doin' alright.
::Written in choppy red crayola::
Billy Ray
AKA: Karnafexx
"Simply the Best"
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From: pedael@aol.com (Pedael)
Date: 23 Apr 1998 19:41:57 EDT
I would just like to say that the Roman Empire was by no means a republic. A republic is a form of democracy where the people elect representatives who will the serve the interests of their constituents in the government. The Roman Empire was, just that, an empire, ruled by an emperor who was basically a dictator. The emperor was served by a sophisiticated bureacracy adn a by a series of assemblies elected by the people and the army.
And of course, there was the Senate, a group of old patricians who rubber stamped all of the emperor's decisions because they wouldn't do anything else if they valued their necks. The assemblies could do little else. The emperor's word was law.
Now the emperor only need keep one group happy, the army. And that is the very nature of dictatorship. Rule by force. That is not to say that the emperor did not want the support of the people. If they liked him, then machinery of gov't would proceed more smoothly than otherwise. But that was not critical. People can pretend to be content if a sword is at their neck.
It is also necessary to point out that the people did not elect the emperor. He was he either arose through heredity or through the killing of the previous emperor. One can look at the long list of emperors and see that most did not die naturally.
One should also note that the Roman Republic was not really a republic. It was an oligarchy run the patricians who comprised the Senate. The people did elect the consuls, but they could only serve a year and usually did not agree with each other so as to check the power of the oligarchy. More often than not the consuls were patricians. Not many plebians or equestrians made consul.
In conclusion I would like to say that the DoS looks more like the Roman Empire to me than it does a republic. And before anybody objects to what I just said, I want to make it clear that I am not calling the Overlord a dictator nor am I calling the Barons possessive oligarchs. Nor am I saying that the DoS is the hotbed of deceit, intrigue, and murder that the Roman Empire was. On occasion they share certain characteristics. And that is all I
have to say.
Pedael
Date: 23 Apr 1998 19:41:57 EDT
I would just like to say that the Roman Empire was by no means a republic. A republic is a form of democracy where the people elect representatives who will the serve the interests of their constituents in the government. The Roman Empire was, just that, an empire, ruled by an emperor who was basically a dictator. The emperor was served by a sophisiticated bureacracy adn a by a series of assemblies elected by the people and the army.
And of course, there was the Senate, a group of old patricians who rubber stamped all of the emperor's decisions because they wouldn't do anything else if they valued their necks. The assemblies could do little else. The emperor's word was law.
Now the emperor only need keep one group happy, the army. And that is the very nature of dictatorship. Rule by force. That is not to say that the emperor did not want the support of the people. If they liked him, then machinery of gov't would proceed more smoothly than otherwise. But that was not critical. People can pretend to be content if a sword is at their neck.
It is also necessary to point out that the people did not elect the emperor. He was he either arose through heredity or through the killing of the previous emperor. One can look at the long list of emperors and see that most did not die naturally.
One should also note that the Roman Republic was not really a republic. It was an oligarchy run the patricians who comprised the Senate. The people did elect the consuls, but they could only serve a year and usually did not agree with each other so as to check the power of the oligarchy. More often than not the consuls were patricians. Not many plebians or equestrians made consul.
In conclusion I would like to say that the DoS looks more like the Roman Empire to me than it does a republic. And before anybody objects to what I just said, I want to make it clear that I am not calling the Overlord a dictator nor am I calling the Barons possessive oligarchs. Nor am I saying that the DoS is the hotbed of deceit, intrigue, and murder that the Roman Empire was. On occasion they share certain characteristics. And that is all I
have to say.
Pedael
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From: kiatara@aol.com (Kiatara)
Date: 23 Apr 1998 20:49:32 EDT
Honor.....Integrity.....Honesty
Three very small words...such little words, yet so profound, to have such powers over men and women. The three go hand in hand....this triad. Honor is not power in itself...but it brings power to the person who lives it. Honor is merely a belief that a man or woman must live their life within the boundaries that dictate what that person is. Some believe honor is given, I say it must be earned. To earn honor is to learn that we all make mistakes.
Honor dictates that we must have humility to learn, not to abuse power but to face hardship and fight the good fight. Honor is many forms, but only one belief. That belief is that man must be one with himself. He or she knows who they are, how they feel, their hopes, their dreams, their desires....and they fulfill their destiny by living their life as they see fit.
So often times many equate honor with power and pride. What is power? Is it forcing one's will upon another through threats and coersion? Or is it the will to listen to what is just and true and to keep an open mind? Or perhaps, when all is said and done and the dust settles, we realize that at one time or another we all have fallacies, not one of us is perfect. Those who hide behind the veil of power and pride are to be pitied....for they have
lost out on the greatest gift....to live and love, not with power, but with human decency.
Many do not know nor may ever know what is the most powerful of all. It's not the sword that kills, nor the harsh words that berate....but the actions and words of those who show their honor through the passage of time. If belonging means I must discard honor, then I do not belong. If being apart of a group or family dictates that I must forfeit integrity, then I am not easily bought.
I am many things....a woman, a teacher, a student, a friend, ... and the first lesson of honor is humility, for I am not a God....but a mere Elven lass. I do not need to force my will upon another. I do not seek power, nor do I cause fear...for many use their fear to propogate their own desires. I have learned humility and therefore I do not seek vengeance on those who use fear to maintain their "honor", for to do so would be as them, weak and
cowardly.
In this endeavor, I do not sail the winds alone....for in mine eyes there are those few who stand out, heads above the rest in actions with honor. Needless to say, words alone make not a person, but actions tell the truth...for cannot one speak out both sides of their mouth at the same time? It is in the actions that it is told. It can sometimes be a lonely path and seldom used road. I can only have sympathy for those who equate honor with power
and pride...for one day the power will leave and they will become but shells of men and women.
Yes....standing up for what one believes in can be a strange and lonely path to tred and more often times than not it's the less taken path chosen...but one I would choose over any other....and will do so again for once you have tasted it, it is most precious... be true to yourself. Our Honor stands as the highest point of ourselves. The one thing we may never lose if our hearts be true...standing with our heads held high even in the darkest of
times.
Honor...an often misunderstood and overused word...but it is within each person, whether they want to admit it or not....it is our ideals, our very being...
It's what makes us who we are.
I endure,
~Kia
- K i a t a r a -
Laugh and the world laughs with you;
weep and you weep alone.
Date: 23 Apr 1998 20:49:32 EDT
Honor.....Integrity.....Honesty
Three very small words...such little words, yet so profound, to have such powers over men and women. The three go hand in hand....this triad. Honor is not power in itself...but it brings power to the person who lives it. Honor is merely a belief that a man or woman must live their life within the boundaries that dictate what that person is. Some believe honor is given, I say it must be earned. To earn honor is to learn that we all make mistakes.
Honor dictates that we must have humility to learn, not to abuse power but to face hardship and fight the good fight. Honor is many forms, but only one belief. That belief is that man must be one with himself. He or she knows who they are, how they feel, their hopes, their dreams, their desires....and they fulfill their destiny by living their life as they see fit.
So often times many equate honor with power and pride. What is power? Is it forcing one's will upon another through threats and coersion? Or is it the will to listen to what is just and true and to keep an open mind? Or perhaps, when all is said and done and the dust settles, we realize that at one time or another we all have fallacies, not one of us is perfect. Those who hide behind the veil of power and pride are to be pitied....for they have
lost out on the greatest gift....to live and love, not with power, but with human decency.
Many do not know nor may ever know what is the most powerful of all. It's not the sword that kills, nor the harsh words that berate....but the actions and words of those who show their honor through the passage of time. If belonging means I must discard honor, then I do not belong. If being apart of a group or family dictates that I must forfeit integrity, then I am not easily bought.
I am many things....a woman, a teacher, a student, a friend, ... and the first lesson of honor is humility, for I am not a God....but a mere Elven lass. I do not need to force my will upon another. I do not seek power, nor do I cause fear...for many use their fear to propogate their own desires. I have learned humility and therefore I do not seek vengeance on those who use fear to maintain their "honor", for to do so would be as them, weak and
cowardly.
In this endeavor, I do not sail the winds alone....for in mine eyes there are those few who stand out, heads above the rest in actions with honor. Needless to say, words alone make not a person, but actions tell the truth...for cannot one speak out both sides of their mouth at the same time? It is in the actions that it is told. It can sometimes be a lonely path and seldom used road. I can only have sympathy for those who equate honor with power
and pride...for one day the power will leave and they will become but shells of men and women.
Yes....standing up for what one believes in can be a strange and lonely path to tred and more often times than not it's the less taken path chosen...but one I would choose over any other....and will do so again for once you have tasted it, it is most precious... be true to yourself. Our Honor stands as the highest point of ourselves. The one thing we may never lose if our hearts be true...standing with our heads held high even in the darkest of
times.
Honor...an often misunderstood and overused word...but it is within each person, whether they want to admit it or not....it is our ideals, our very being...
It's what makes us who we are.
I endure,
~Kia
- K i a t a r a -
Laugh and the world laughs with you;
weep and you weep alone.
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From: cygnetsera@aol.com (CygnetSera)
Date: 24 Apr 1998 09:27:26 EDT
The 1st Seraph of the 9 Orders smiles reading the words of Pedael, murmuring softly,
"So true his words spoken... so true..." Her voice trailing off as another message tacked up to the ancient board catches her eye.
Cygnet Seraphin
Redeemed1st of the 9 Orders
Keeper of the Queue, ad call, DoS
Formerly of the Jade Gryphons, TDL
~cs~
Date: 24 Apr 1998 09:27:26 EDT
The 1st Seraph of the 9 Orders smiles reading the words of Pedael, murmuring softly,
"So true his words spoken... so true..." Her voice trailing off as another message tacked up to the ancient board catches her eye.
Cygnet Seraphin
Redeemed1st of the 9 Orders
Keeper of the Queue, ad call, DoS
Formerly of the Jade Gryphons, TDL
~cs~
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 26 Apr 1998 19:31:13 EDT
<<Madame Nenshen,
I would thank you not to places words I have not written in defense.>>
I am certain thee would, Master Girvin, for would that not mean t'would be only thine own "defense" which would be heard?
<<If there are those wish ignore the masses as did King Louis XIV, then they will meet a similar fate. >>
Be thou advocating revolts by the "masses" and the beheading of those which do hold high rank, Master Girvin?
<<What I proposed was more of a republic than a democracy. The greatest example of a republic?
The Roman Empire.
I challenge you to find a *Less* mediocre nation, madame Nenshen.
Constant,
~Brian Girvin>>
Do I take it correctly that thou art stating that the Roman Empire is mediocre in its entirety or just portions of that far flung and diverse Empire. And what of those that frequent the dueling house who do claim as their homeland that of the Roman Empire, Master Girvin?
I would also ponder other of thine assertions, Master Girvin, to whit:
<<First: Official use of the word Honor should be limited.>>
I wouldst aver that smacks of official censorship, Master Girvin.
<<This does not preclude peer pressure by any means but eliminates organized discrimination by those that have code of ethics that clashes with the high price of Honor while not changing the rules they must follow to participate in the Duel of Swords.>>
Art thou advocating coercion, Master Girvin? Art thou also advocating the elimination of organized resistance?
<<Second: An official statement, mainly of clarification, relating to the political position in the DoS.>>
To what end, Master Girvin? From the very inception of the rank of Overlord, it was the Overlord himself or herself who chose the direction of his/her reign, be it Gondar or Lord Dalamar ArD'aumon. Would you advocate then an official constraint upon the Overlord to choose thusly?
<<Third: A political body that gives all of the Ranks in DoS a say in the overall function of the sport.>>
Come now, Master Girvin, do thee actually believe that anyone who has reason to seek redress cannot do so?
<<....and I believe chaired by a senior Renegade baron.>> Indeed, Master Girvin? Why not a Loyalist? And what of those instances when there are no Renegades or for that matter when there are no Loyalists as was once the case by the then Overlord's decree?
<<This body would exist as a sort of watchdog for the body of DoS as the Baron's council is, as it should be, primarily concerned with protecting itself.>>
From whom or what would the body of DoS need protection, Master Girvin?
<<Thus a body, not beholden to the desires to further the cause of Barons and the Overlord alone, would be able to hear concerns and voice them to (a) to the public of DoS and (b) the power of DoS in a sanctioned manner.>>
I aver, Master Girvin, that the public is most able to voice concerns should any so desire. I also aver, Master Girvin, that should any of the public wish to seek redress they may, should they so desire, seek of any rank, be it the Overlord, the Barons, the Warlords or a Commoner, aid in such. I am reminded of the more than one historical instance where this has been done.
Cordially,
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare.
Date: 26 Apr 1998 19:31:13 EDT
<<Madame Nenshen,
I would thank you not to places words I have not written in defense.>>
I am certain thee would, Master Girvin, for would that not mean t'would be only thine own "defense" which would be heard?
<<If there are those wish ignore the masses as did King Louis XIV, then they will meet a similar fate. >>
Be thou advocating revolts by the "masses" and the beheading of those which do hold high rank, Master Girvin?
<<What I proposed was more of a republic than a democracy. The greatest example of a republic?
The Roman Empire.
I challenge you to find a *Less* mediocre nation, madame Nenshen.
Constant,
~Brian Girvin>>
Do I take it correctly that thou art stating that the Roman Empire is mediocre in its entirety or just portions of that far flung and diverse Empire. And what of those that frequent the dueling house who do claim as their homeland that of the Roman Empire, Master Girvin?
I would also ponder other of thine assertions, Master Girvin, to whit:
<<First: Official use of the word Honor should be limited.>>
I wouldst aver that smacks of official censorship, Master Girvin.
<<This does not preclude peer pressure by any means but eliminates organized discrimination by those that have code of ethics that clashes with the high price of Honor while not changing the rules they must follow to participate in the Duel of Swords.>>
Art thou advocating coercion, Master Girvin? Art thou also advocating the elimination of organized resistance?
<<Second: An official statement, mainly of clarification, relating to the political position in the DoS.>>
To what end, Master Girvin? From the very inception of the rank of Overlord, it was the Overlord himself or herself who chose the direction of his/her reign, be it Gondar or Lord Dalamar ArD'aumon. Would you advocate then an official constraint upon the Overlord to choose thusly?
<<Third: A political body that gives all of the Ranks in DoS a say in the overall function of the sport.>>
Come now, Master Girvin, do thee actually believe that anyone who has reason to seek redress cannot do so?
<<....and I believe chaired by a senior Renegade baron.>> Indeed, Master Girvin? Why not a Loyalist? And what of those instances when there are no Renegades or for that matter when there are no Loyalists as was once the case by the then Overlord's decree?
<<This body would exist as a sort of watchdog for the body of DoS as the Baron's council is, as it should be, primarily concerned with protecting itself.>>
From whom or what would the body of DoS need protection, Master Girvin?
<<Thus a body, not beholden to the desires to further the cause of Barons and the Overlord alone, would be able to hear concerns and voice them to (a) to the public of DoS and (b) the power of DoS in a sanctioned manner.>>
I aver, Master Girvin, that the public is most able to voice concerns should any so desire. I also aver, Master Girvin, that should any of the public wish to seek redress they may, should they so desire, seek of any rank, be it the Overlord, the Barons, the Warlords or a Commoner, aid in such. I am reminded of the more than one historical instance where this has been done.
Cordially,
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare.
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From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 27 Apr 1998 07:04:57 EDT
it was the Overlord himself or herself who chose the direction of his/her reign,
You make my point more clearly on this matter. A reign is a political position, not one a friendly one. I did not advocate a single limitation on anyone. Merely a clarification.
As to the body that I spoke, I will explain or argue my point on this any further with a narrow view of the community that is DoS.
It is my assertion that DoS has out grown the mere ranks that exist in the rules and that there are parties that do not wish to partake of that portion of the community, much like yourself Jonalyn, that are left without the ability for justice, but that goes into explaining and I will not do that any further. My ideas shall stand or fall on their own merit and I will not beat my cheat or bang the drum to make people see my point.
It is presented and you, like Iain, see no point in it. There is no dishonor in that.
As for revolution, I prefer the peaceful kind. I will not now, nor have I ever advocated murder for personal gains. There is an example in the civil wars the little human history, one regime of excess and cruelty is usually toppled for one that ends up being worse.
As I have said before, I have no position to affect change. But neither must I keep silent. If I incorrect on my thoughts, then so be it. No one *must* agree with me. Even thought the MacKenzie and I disagree often we remain friends.
I have no need to prove myself right.
Constant,
~Brian Girvin
Date: 27 Apr 1998 07:04:57 EDT
it was the Overlord himself or herself who chose the direction of his/her reign,
You make my point more clearly on this matter. A reign is a political position, not one a friendly one. I did not advocate a single limitation on anyone. Merely a clarification.
As to the body that I spoke, I will explain or argue my point on this any further with a narrow view of the community that is DoS.
It is my assertion that DoS has out grown the mere ranks that exist in the rules and that there are parties that do not wish to partake of that portion of the community, much like yourself Jonalyn, that are left without the ability for justice, but that goes into explaining and I will not do that any further. My ideas shall stand or fall on their own merit and I will not beat my cheat or bang the drum to make people see my point.
It is presented and you, like Iain, see no point in it. There is no dishonor in that.
As for revolution, I prefer the peaceful kind. I will not now, nor have I ever advocated murder for personal gains. There is an example in the civil wars the little human history, one regime of excess and cruelty is usually toppled for one that ends up being worse.
As I have said before, I have no position to affect change. But neither must I keep silent. If I incorrect on my thoughts, then so be it. No one *must* agree with me. Even thought the MacKenzie and I disagree often we remain friends.
I have no need to prove myself right.
Constant,
~Brian Girvin
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 27 Apr 1998 16:06:01 EDT
<>
Methinks, Master Girvin, that statement would come as a surprise to certain of those that have worn the mantle of the Overlord. I do recall some grumbles when the Ever Helpful Vixxenish, Twelfth Overlady, planned on changing the decor of the Dueling House to Pink Chintz though no talk of revolt. Well, to be perfectly honest, some of the males did use the word revolting. Me Monk ne'er struck me as unfriendly, Juan Sanchez Villalobos Ramierz, now
there was a friendly rogue if e'er one danced, just ask those that recall him.
<<It is my assertion that the DoS has outgrown the mere ranks that exist in the rules and that there are parties that do not wish to partake of that portion of the community, much like yourself Jonalyn, that are left without the ability for justice, but that goes into explaining and I will not do that further.>>
A most interesting comment, Master Girvin, though flawed, at least with regard to using me as an example. Would thee have the DoS become a judicial and legal body as well? To what end, Master Girvin?
<<It is presented and you, like Iain, see no point in it>>
I, of course, would not deign to speak for Iain, for he most certainly, and oft times quite eloquently, speaks for himself. I do not recall stating I saw no point in it, Master Girvin. I do recall questioning.
<<I have no need to prove myself right.>>
An interesting comment, Master Girvin, for I do not recall anyone requesting that thee do so and certes, I see no need for thee to do so.
Cordially
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare.
Date: 27 Apr 1998 16:06:01 EDT
<>
Methinks, Master Girvin, that statement would come as a surprise to certain of those that have worn the mantle of the Overlord. I do recall some grumbles when the Ever Helpful Vixxenish, Twelfth Overlady, planned on changing the decor of the Dueling House to Pink Chintz though no talk of revolt. Well, to be perfectly honest, some of the males did use the word revolting. Me Monk ne'er struck me as unfriendly, Juan Sanchez Villalobos Ramierz, now
there was a friendly rogue if e'er one danced, just ask those that recall him.
<<It is my assertion that the DoS has outgrown the mere ranks that exist in the rules and that there are parties that do not wish to partake of that portion of the community, much like yourself Jonalyn, that are left without the ability for justice, but that goes into explaining and I will not do that further.>>
A most interesting comment, Master Girvin, though flawed, at least with regard to using me as an example. Would thee have the DoS become a judicial and legal body as well? To what end, Master Girvin?
<<It is presented and you, like Iain, see no point in it>>
I, of course, would not deign to speak for Iain, for he most certainly, and oft times quite eloquently, speaks for himself. I do not recall stating I saw no point in it, Master Girvin. I do recall questioning.
<<I have no need to prove myself right.>>
An interesting comment, Master Girvin, for I do not recall anyone requesting that thee do so and certes, I see no need for thee to do so.
Cordially
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare.
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From: girvin@aol.com (GIRVIN)
Date: 27 Apr 1998 19:28:27 EDT
::chuckles as he stands alone letting her have what she lives for, the last word:
Date: 27 Apr 1998 19:28:27 EDT
::chuckles as he stands alone letting her have what she lives for, the last word:
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 28 Apr 1998 01:12:19 EDT
::hearing the chuckle, tosses a wink over her shoulder, leaving him standing there, laughing at himself::
Date: 28 Apr 1998 01:12:19 EDT
::hearing the chuckle, tosses a wink over her shoulder, leaving him standing there, laughing at himself::