From: zen80s@aol.com (Zen 80s)
Date: 28 May 1998 14:50:42 EDT
::posts a copy of the second letter he sent to Daegarth and the ones in charge, hoping now things will go smoothly::
Sir Daegarth:
All right, I made my challenge too early last time.
Fine.
Fortunately, I retracted my challenge before it had a chance to be invalidated.
Now your name is up in the standings as a Baron, so I reissue my challenge to you.
And again, here are my peer wins.
1. 5-9: Defeated X Gnort X 5-2 in 9 rounds - Caller: RDI Bird
2. 5-9: Defeated SteveG X 6.5-5 in 12 rounds - Caller: RDI Bird
3. 5-14: Defeated Nikthanas 5-3 in 8 rounds - Caller: RDI Rogue
4. 5-14: Defeated ReaperArkn 5-3 in 8 rounds - Caller: RDI Rose
5. 5-21: Defeated Sartan Z 5-1 in 11 rounds - Caller: RDI Rogue
6. 5-21: Defeated MoneyBlade 5-1 in 7 rounds - Caller: RDI Rogue
7. 5-21: Defeated TinyTopaz 5-4 in 8 rounds - Caller: RDI Morn
8. 5-23: Defeated LordovDale 5-2 in 7 rounds - Caller: RDI Bird
9. 5-24: Defeated Harris4801 5-1 in 9 rounds - Caller: RDI Luth
10. 5-24: Defeated Taylara 5-2.5 in 11 rounds - Caller: RDI Fiona
11. 5-24: Defeated LrdEvasion 5-3 in 8 rounds - Caller: RDI Fiona
12. 5-24: Defeated Rand alTan 5-4 in 12 rounds - Caller: RDI Daemon
I'll skip all the formalities since you've heard them before, and they are unneccessary to repeat.
Once again, though, I remind you that I would like to have this resolved as soon as possible.
Regards,
Zen
Fixed Situation.
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From: bekacavish@aol.com (BekaCavish)
Date: 28 May 1998 16:31:04 EDT
::Sighs a bit as she notes the challenge so soon, the ink not even dried on the
standings, posts a short response::
Baron Mithmellon,
As always, you have all my best wishes, may Illior light your path and
Sakor guide your blade to victory.
--Beka Cavish--
@Verdun
Date: 28 May 1998 16:31:04 EDT
::Sighs a bit as she notes the challenge so soon, the ink not even dried on the
standings, posts a short response::
Baron Mithmellon,
As always, you have all my best wishes, may Illior light your path and
Sakor guide your blade to victory.
--Beka Cavish--
@Verdun
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From: lyonxx@aol.com (Lyon xx)
Date: 28 May 1998 23:52:27 EDT
Zen,
I see you as nothing less than a pathetic waste of skin. I also see you as a coward. You think you can claim that you withdrawed the challenge before it was invalidated and that makes it all right? You put your neck out there on the chopping block and when the blade starts to fall you quickly retreat thinking to avoid the consequences of your action, I do hope the powers that be see through this.
You also claim that you hold Daegarth responsible for your down fall. You need to get a firm grasp of reality and see that your down fall was due to your own incompetency. If this challenge is allowed to go through I'm confident that M'lord Phoenix will deliver swift punishment for your foolishness.
Lyon
Date: 28 May 1998 23:52:27 EDT
Zen,
I see you as nothing less than a pathetic waste of skin. I also see you as a coward. You think you can claim that you withdrawed the challenge before it was invalidated and that makes it all right? You put your neck out there on the chopping block and when the blade starts to fall you quickly retreat thinking to avoid the consequences of your action, I do hope the powers that be see through this.
You also claim that you hold Daegarth responsible for your down fall. You need to get a firm grasp of reality and see that your down fall was due to your own incompetency. If this challenge is allowed to go through I'm confident that M'lord Phoenix will deliver swift punishment for your foolishness.
Lyon
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From: zen80s@aol.com (Zen 80s)
Date: 29 May 1998 00:01:18 EDT
::reads the posts and laughs::
Who are you?
More importantly, who are you to judge me?
I bet you don't even know the circumstances which caused me to lose my ring.
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I wasn't even able to defend the ring.
And as far as retracting the challenge, I did indeed retract it, as I checked with your "powers that be" that you think should condemn me so.
I don't know who you are, but it does seem you are quite arrogant, because you think you know me and enough about me to pass judgment on me. I did not lose my ring to incompetency, nor wholly because of Daegarth-- although obviously if he had not challenged it I would not have lost it. I lost it because of something which was out of my hands ((Read: OOC circumstances forcing me off AOL for a time)).
Don't even bother to reply, because I have no desire to here what insults you will push based on half-truth-- if it is even so much as half. See me as a pathetic waste of flesh all you want, because your eyes certainly haven't affected me yet.
~Zen
Date: 29 May 1998 00:01:18 EDT
::reads the posts and laughs::
Who are you?
More importantly, who are you to judge me?
I bet you don't even know the circumstances which caused me to lose my ring.
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I wasn't even able to defend the ring.
And as far as retracting the challenge, I did indeed retract it, as I checked with your "powers that be" that you think should condemn me so.
I don't know who you are, but it does seem you are quite arrogant, because you think you know me and enough about me to pass judgment on me. I did not lose my ring to incompetency, nor wholly because of Daegarth-- although obviously if he had not challenged it I would not have lost it. I lost it because of something which was out of my hands ((Read: OOC circumstances forcing me off AOL for a time)).
Don't even bother to reply, because I have no desire to here what insults you will push based on half-truth-- if it is even so much as half. See me as a pathetic waste of flesh all you want, because your eyes certainly haven't affected me yet.
~Zen
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 29 May 1998 11:29:29 EDT
Lyon,
Unfortunaly, I believe Zen's statement that he has managed to officially retract his challenge. Next time this happens, those of us familiar with the standards of the sport should keep our mouths shut rather than giving the challenger for-warning that the challenge will be voided.
Note however, that Daegarth is not without options here. I doubt he will make use of them, as no Baron has attempted to do this, but there is always the possibility.
The option is this: Refuse the challenge. If a Baron refuses a challenge, the matter goes to the council, unlike in years past when it was simply ruled a forfeit. The council is free to make whatever decision they wish - including, allowing Daegarth to keep the ring and voiding Zen's challenge. Of course they also might simply rule it a forfeit or force them to duel. The council is not bound by precedent or logic, so one never knows exactly how
they will rule.
Refusal of challenge is something that should be done with great care, but if the Baron thinks he has the high ground and support from his peers, it is a viable alternative.
Respectfully,
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
Date: 29 May 1998 11:29:29 EDT
Lyon,
Unfortunaly, I believe Zen's statement that he has managed to officially retract his challenge. Next time this happens, those of us familiar with the standards of the sport should keep our mouths shut rather than giving the challenger for-warning that the challenge will be voided.
Note however, that Daegarth is not without options here. I doubt he will make use of them, as no Baron has attempted to do this, but there is always the possibility.
The option is this: Refuse the challenge. If a Baron refuses a challenge, the matter goes to the council, unlike in years past when it was simply ruled a forfeit. The council is free to make whatever decision they wish - including, allowing Daegarth to keep the ring and voiding Zen's challenge. Of course they also might simply rule it a forfeit or force them to duel. The council is not bound by precedent or logic, so one never knows exactly how
they will rule.
Refusal of challenge is something that should be done with great care, but if the Baron thinks he has the high ground and support from his peers, it is a viable alternative.
Respectfully,
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
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From: jakvaltrds@aol.com (Jakvaltrds)
Date: 29 May 1998 13:56:40 EDT
::ponders the implications of Kal's letter and wonders how the other Barons view the hasty challenge. Stroking the close kept beard as he muses he decides to wait and see what the future brings::
Date: 29 May 1998 13:56:40 EDT
::ponders the implications of Kal's letter and wonders how the other Barons view the hasty challenge. Stroking the close kept beard as he muses he decides to wait and see what the future brings::
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From: zen80s@aol.com (Zen 80s)
Date: 29 May 1998 15:54:08 EDT
::thinks about all that has been posted...thinks about his quick challenge being jumped on and how no one jumped on Dae two years ago when he made a challenge to him after only three days of actually holding the ring-- and that was before the standings were posted, because he won it on a Sunday::
::also thinks it would be amusing if the Baron's Council had to rule on the challenge, since it was the circumstances surrounding Dae's challenge to Zen that caused it to be formed in the first place::
::talks to himself:: Hmm...personally, I don't see the big deal about the retraction and reissuing. I mean, anyone with enough sense is gonna agree, I would hope, that if you do something wrong, and someone lets you know, you want to fix it and do it right, and not keep plodding along going the wrong way. I mean, I checked it out with Golden, and he says it's okay. So what's the fuss all about? I just made a mistake, someone told me, and I
corrected the mistake. And people are angry that I fixed it?
I mean, as far as I'm concerned, the legality of the challenge is no longer an issue. I'd just like to get it resolved now. Although, I'm sure someone else will find something to complain about. I wish they wouldn't. If I'd known there was going to be so much trouble, I would've not even worried about making it. I just wanted to try to get a ring again.
::continues to ramble on to himself about various things, including the challenge::
Date: 29 May 1998 15:54:08 EDT
::thinks about all that has been posted...thinks about his quick challenge being jumped on and how no one jumped on Dae two years ago when he made a challenge to him after only three days of actually holding the ring-- and that was before the standings were posted, because he won it on a Sunday::
::also thinks it would be amusing if the Baron's Council had to rule on the challenge, since it was the circumstances surrounding Dae's challenge to Zen that caused it to be formed in the first place::
::talks to himself:: Hmm...personally, I don't see the big deal about the retraction and reissuing. I mean, anyone with enough sense is gonna agree, I would hope, that if you do something wrong, and someone lets you know, you want to fix it and do it right, and not keep plodding along going the wrong way. I mean, I checked it out with Golden, and he says it's okay. So what's the fuss all about? I just made a mistake, someone told me, and I
corrected the mistake. And people are angry that I fixed it?
I mean, as far as I'm concerned, the legality of the challenge is no longer an issue. I'd just like to get it resolved now. Although, I'm sure someone else will find something to complain about. I wish they wouldn't. If I'd known there was going to be so much trouble, I would've not even worried about making it. I just wanted to try to get a ring again.
::continues to ramble on to himself about various things, including the challenge::
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 29 May 1998 20:48:23 EDT
Zen:
I can assure you that Lord T'gar, a close compatriot of Lord Mithmellon's since you still cleaved to your mother's chest, is more than fully aware of the circumstances regarding your previous dishonor and humiliation before this sport.
Further, while you claim circumstances beyond your control, those of us with memory clearly recall that your situation was caused by your deliberate practice of changing your legal name and residence, which certainly appeared to be an attempt to to avoid attempts by the RhyDin tax authorities to gather their rightful portion of your income.
Rest assured, sir, that your position may have been validated by the officials of this arena, but the path before you is, at best, fraught with peril.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords
Date: 29 May 1998 20:48:23 EDT
Zen:
I can assure you that Lord T'gar, a close compatriot of Lord Mithmellon's since you still cleaved to your mother's chest, is more than fully aware of the circumstances regarding your previous dishonor and humiliation before this sport.
Further, while you claim circumstances beyond your control, those of us with memory clearly recall that your situation was caused by your deliberate practice of changing your legal name and residence, which certainly appeared to be an attempt to to avoid attempts by the RhyDin tax authorities to gather their rightful portion of your income.
Rest assured, sir, that your position may have been validated by the officials of this arena, but the path before you is, at best, fraught with peril.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 30 May 1998 05:20:40 EDT
Zen:
You abandoned a ring.
You broke the rules of the sport by issuing your challenge before you were allowed to do so.
That is why you are being lambasted.
((Your OOC situation is irrelevant, and my comments were IC. Keep it that way.))
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords
Date: 30 May 1998 05:20:40 EDT
Zen:
You abandoned a ring.
You broke the rules of the sport by issuing your challenge before you were allowed to do so.
That is why you are being lambasted.
((Your OOC situation is irrelevant, and my comments were IC. Keep it that way.))
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords
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From: humadragbn@aol.com (HumaDragbn)
Date: 30 May 1998 12:18:00 EDT
::skims the posts, muses for a moment then wanders off to plan::
Date: 30 May 1998 12:18:00 EDT
::skims the posts, muses for a moment then wanders off to plan::
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From: zen80s@aol.com (Zen 80s)
Date: 31 May 1998 00:04:41 EDT
((Your comments made my OOC situation my IC one. That is what I don't like. IC, that wasn't the reason, and sticking to IC, I'm not going to tell because Zen isn't real close to a lot of people and doesn't want to tell his reasons.))
Well, Iain, you can't tell me I'm the first to ever make a mistake, or even the first to leave a ring behind (at least, I hope not, but again, I may be wrong). I fixed my mistake. While I may not have done it without having received the information I was lacking, the fact is I corrected it. I didn't know correcting a mistake was so bad. I guess from now on if I do something wrong I should let it keep going wrong and turn into a big mess if it
happens to go that way, because that seems to be the message I'm receiving-- don't fix mistakes.
Anyway, I fixed the mistake. And I don't think leaving a ring makes me a bad person, nor do I understand why it is so contemptible.
Personally, I'd like to just go on with the challenge and finish up. Whether I win or lose, I think it's best to move on with things and continue dueling. I just want to be a Baron. I know there are people who think that trying to be one without having a vendetta against the person you're challenging is wrong, and there are still people who think I am a wicked man for all I have done concerning this challenge. It doesn't seem like much I say will
do much to change this (even though I've said a good deal recently), so, let them, you, whoever, talk. I'll still get up in the morning, and come here in the night to duel.
I seem to be getting longwinded. I hope this is the last time I feel the need to be.
Zen
Date: 31 May 1998 00:04:41 EDT
((Your comments made my OOC situation my IC one. That is what I don't like. IC, that wasn't the reason, and sticking to IC, I'm not going to tell because Zen isn't real close to a lot of people and doesn't want to tell his reasons.))
Well, Iain, you can't tell me I'm the first to ever make a mistake, or even the first to leave a ring behind (at least, I hope not, but again, I may be wrong). I fixed my mistake. While I may not have done it without having received the information I was lacking, the fact is I corrected it. I didn't know correcting a mistake was so bad. I guess from now on if I do something wrong I should let it keep going wrong and turn into a big mess if it
happens to go that way, because that seems to be the message I'm receiving-- don't fix mistakes.
Anyway, I fixed the mistake. And I don't think leaving a ring makes me a bad person, nor do I understand why it is so contemptible.
Personally, I'd like to just go on with the challenge and finish up. Whether I win or lose, I think it's best to move on with things and continue dueling. I just want to be a Baron. I know there are people who think that trying to be one without having a vendetta against the person you're challenging is wrong, and there are still people who think I am a wicked man for all I have done concerning this challenge. It doesn't seem like much I say will
do much to change this (even though I've said a good deal recently), so, let them, you, whoever, talk. I'll still get up in the morning, and come here in the night to duel.
I seem to be getting longwinded. I hope this is the last time I feel the need to be.
Zen
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 31 May 1998 06:28:44 EDT
::Glances through, wondering why he was never given the chance to retract his challenge to Dae. He realizes he was responsible, by forgetting to send the peer wins to Golden, but maybe Zen should have checked to make sure Daegarth was a Baron who could be challenged according to the rules::
::Just shakes his head, saying to himself sarcastically:: Do I get all my peer wins back, and my right to challenge Daegarth now without penalty? Of course not. I had to wait till next cycle, to challenge.
::Writes::
If you look in the history center, it will say that my challenge to Daegarth long ago, was nulled, because I didn't keep the rank of warlord after I submitted the challenge.... However, I was informed that my challenge was rendered void, because I forgot to send my peer wins to the standings keeper.
Because of this obviously biased event, I must say that if you do mess up in a challenge, you suffer the consequences, as some of us already have. K'yorl was allowed to redeem his challenge after he challenged with young peer wins, as well.
It seems, until someone actually enforces a rule, we can submit invalid challenges however many times we want. Pretty soon we'll be seeing Commoners challenging for warlord, but they'll "retract" their challenge, week after week, until they have the peer wins to back up a challenge.
Just a thought. Nothing personal against anyone, plus, I feel this is my business. I have made challenges, and I got penalized when I screwed up.
±
"A man helped a lady down the road, when her leg was broken. She sent him a letter, a day later, saying, 'because of your kindness, I made it to my husband's side, before he passed away.' You never know what impact you make, when you help"
Date: 31 May 1998 06:28:44 EDT
::Glances through, wondering why he was never given the chance to retract his challenge to Dae. He realizes he was responsible, by forgetting to send the peer wins to Golden, but maybe Zen should have checked to make sure Daegarth was a Baron who could be challenged according to the rules::
::Just shakes his head, saying to himself sarcastically:: Do I get all my peer wins back, and my right to challenge Daegarth now without penalty? Of course not. I had to wait till next cycle, to challenge.
::Writes::
If you look in the history center, it will say that my challenge to Daegarth long ago, was nulled, because I didn't keep the rank of warlord after I submitted the challenge.... However, I was informed that my challenge was rendered void, because I forgot to send my peer wins to the standings keeper.
Because of this obviously biased event, I must say that if you do mess up in a challenge, you suffer the consequences, as some of us already have. K'yorl was allowed to redeem his challenge after he challenged with young peer wins, as well.
It seems, until someone actually enforces a rule, we can submit invalid challenges however many times we want. Pretty soon we'll be seeing Commoners challenging for warlord, but they'll "retract" their challenge, week after week, until they have the peer wins to back up a challenge.
Just a thought. Nothing personal against anyone, plus, I feel this is my business. I have made challenges, and I got penalized when I screwed up.
±
"A man helped a lady down the road, when her leg was broken. She sent him a letter, a day later, saying, 'because of your kindness, I made it to my husband's side, before he passed away.' You never know what impact you make, when you help"
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From: zen80s@aol.com (Zen 80s)
Date: 01 Jun 1998 00:45:18 EDT
::reads Var's post and is a bit puzzled::
Well, I don't think you'll see commoners challenging any time soon. What's the point in that? How many commoners actually think they can make a legitimate challenge? On the other hand, in my case, I saw challenges made before official standings were posted, and was not aware the current interpretation of the rules was different. Also, I retracted my challenge before Golden voided it. That's what he told me, at least. I figure, if he says it's
okay, it's okay.
Zen
Date: 01 Jun 1998 00:45:18 EDT
::reads Var's post and is a bit puzzled::
Well, I don't think you'll see commoners challenging any time soon. What's the point in that? How many commoners actually think they can make a legitimate challenge? On the other hand, in my case, I saw challenges made before official standings were posted, and was not aware the current interpretation of the rules was different. Also, I retracted my challenge before Golden voided it. That's what he told me, at least. I figure, if he says it's
okay, it's okay.
Zen
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From: iainmacknz@aol.com (IainMacKnz)
Date: 01 Jun 1998 03:31:53 EDT
>I saw challenges made before official standings were posted,
>and was not aware the current interpretation of the rules was
>different.
That is not a "different interpretation," Zen. It was a physical change to the wording of the rules, at the time the language providing for penalties to those who violate them were laid out.
Those rules were put in place because the patrons of the arena were sick unto death of challenges which weren't mailed to the challenged party, which contained invlaid peer wins, which were offered to Barons who were not eligible for challenge... and which were offered prior to the official changing of the standings. All of these reasons were points of debate, and none of them are without merit.
I would think you would be grateful that Lord Evermeadow was lenient with you under the circumstances, rather than acting as if you had done nothing improper. I fully understand his rationale and respect his decision, even as I disagree with it. The matter now lies with steel.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords
Date: 01 Jun 1998 03:31:53 EDT
>I saw challenges made before official standings were posted,
>and was not aware the current interpretation of the rules was
>different.
That is not a "different interpretation," Zen. It was a physical change to the wording of the rules, at the time the language providing for penalties to those who violate them were laid out.
Those rules were put in place because the patrons of the arena were sick unto death of challenges which weren't mailed to the challenged party, which contained invlaid peer wins, which were offered to Barons who were not eligible for challenge... and which were offered prior to the official changing of the standings. All of these reasons were points of debate, and none of them are without merit.
I would think you would be grateful that Lord Evermeadow was lenient with you under the circumstances, rather than acting as if you had done nothing improper. I fully understand his rationale and respect his decision, even as I disagree with it. The matter now lies with steel.
Iain MacKenzie
Lord Tynsdale
Warlord and Thrice-Baron of the Duel of Swords
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From: zen80s@aol.com (Zen 80s)
Date: 01 Jun 1998 05:09:58 EDT
That is true.
Forgive me for not being aware of the rules as I should have been. I did not expect so many changes.
However, I think I am on top of the rules now, and will prepare any forthcoming challenge within the legal bounds of the Duel of Swords system.
Zen
Date: 01 Jun 1998 05:09:58 EDT
That is true.
Forgive me for not being aware of the rules as I should have been. I did not expect so many changes.
However, I think I am on top of the rules now, and will prepare any forthcoming challenge within the legal bounds of the Duel of Swords system.
Zen