From: simini@aol.com (Simini)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 12:50:53 EDT
To Any Concerned:
It occurs to me that mayhaps clarification of the definitions and differences between "custom", "tradition" and "rule" would be useful. What follows are of course my own definitions, but I am quite confident that one would find essentially the same information when consulting any worthwhile source.
Custom: A habitual course of action, usually of an individual.
Tradition: A time-honored practice or set of practices transmitted from one generation to another and viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present.
Rule: An authoritative statement of what must, may or may not be done.
In a Challenge match:
It is a custom of some individuals for the Challenged to offer the date and time, and the Challenger to offer a particular official.
(There is no tradition applicable to setting particulars, but one example of a tradition in a Challenge match is the tradition of both parties naming a Second and Person of Honor.)
It is a rule of the sport that both parties agree to a particular date, time and official. The exact wording of the pertinent statement is: "...all challenges must be answered within one week of validation and dueled within two weeks of the response."
The rule requires both parties to agree upon a date, time and official and complete the match. Custom and tradition require nothing.
~ Simini
Custom, Tradition, or Rule?
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From: elijaheagleecore@aol.com (ElijahEagleEcore)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 14:43:48 EDT
>It is a custom of some individuals for the Challenged to offer the date and
>time, and the Challenger to offer a particular official.
>
Wrong, it is a tradition many people favor, and it is a custom that some individuals do not follow this course.
> "...all challenges must be answered within one week of validation and dueled
>within two weeks of the response." The rule requires both parties to agree upon a date, time and official and complete the match.
No where is it actually written that both parties must agree. So it is a situation of where the law is unclear and the past has determined the norm.
Swordsister Simini,
It is obvious this post was directed at me because of the recent events of my challenge with Lupton. It is also obvious you are speaking from a biased point of view because your boyfriend is down in the dumps because I beat his arse with a Fancy Disengage after coming from behind to win. It is as well obvious to me that you must not consider me much of a Swordbrother since you didn't even bother to congratulate me for winning my first Baronial
defense, despite the fact your boyfriend was the loser. All I did is what has been done many times before and considered acceptable practice. It is not my fault your boyfriend was purposefully trying to be difficult to get at me and couldn't meet my schedule. I am the title holder, Lupton is not. Preference has always gone on the side of the title holder, because frankly they have earned it for winning and holding the prize. While you may not
care, your lack of congratulations for me and that you chose to make a post like this deeply hurts me, and it seems to me you have suffered the taint of Lupton's company.
As Guardian of the Seventh till Draco fails me,
~Elijah Eagle Ecore~
~Baron of Swords~
Date: 26 Sep 1999 14:43:48 EDT
>It is a custom of some individuals for the Challenged to offer the date and
>time, and the Challenger to offer a particular official.
>
Wrong, it is a tradition many people favor, and it is a custom that some individuals do not follow this course.
> "...all challenges must be answered within one week of validation and dueled
>within two weeks of the response." The rule requires both parties to agree upon a date, time and official and complete the match.
No where is it actually written that both parties must agree. So it is a situation of where the law is unclear and the past has determined the norm.
Swordsister Simini,
It is obvious this post was directed at me because of the recent events of my challenge with Lupton. It is also obvious you are speaking from a biased point of view because your boyfriend is down in the dumps because I beat his arse with a Fancy Disengage after coming from behind to win. It is as well obvious to me that you must not consider me much of a Swordbrother since you didn't even bother to congratulate me for winning my first Baronial
defense, despite the fact your boyfriend was the loser. All I did is what has been done many times before and considered acceptable practice. It is not my fault your boyfriend was purposefully trying to be difficult to get at me and couldn't meet my schedule. I am the title holder, Lupton is not. Preference has always gone on the side of the title holder, because frankly they have earned it for winning and holding the prize. While you may not
care, your lack of congratulations for me and that you chose to make a post like this deeply hurts me, and it seems to me you have suffered the taint of Lupton's company.
As Guardian of the Seventh till Draco fails me,
~Elijah Eagle Ecore~
~Baron of Swords~
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 15:15:56 EDT
Hmm.
You know... I think the term SwordSibling must mean something different to the Baron than it does to... well, everyone else. And, I note that despite long years of close friendship with the Baroness, I've never heard her use the term in reference to the Baron.
Perhaps this is yet another instance of the Baron seeking to claim some kinship with others based on a mere circumstance. This, I suppose, allows the Baron to become offended when others do not act in accordance to the role which he has attempted to impose upon them. Such it seems with his "swordsiblings," his "students," and, of course, his "women." No wonder the Baron constantly feels betrayed; nobody ever lives up to what he assumes of them...
never mind that perhaps they've never accepted the role in the first place.
Really, Elijah, it's horribly petty and infantile on your part to assume that the Baroness' "failure" to congratulate you has anything to do with Lupton. I would echo the words spoken in a Terran motion picture once; a wealthy playboy, upon accepting an offer to compete in a sporting contest for large sums of money against his father's old business partner, who attempted to convince the playboy to decline based on old family friendships, responded:
"You know, Judge... Dad... never liked you."
I imagine the Baroness is simply too polite and decent-hearted to say so herself. Of course, I could be wrong...
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 26 Sep 1999 15:15:56 EDT
Hmm.
You know... I think the term SwordSibling must mean something different to the Baron than it does to... well, everyone else. And, I note that despite long years of close friendship with the Baroness, I've never heard her use the term in reference to the Baron.
Perhaps this is yet another instance of the Baron seeking to claim some kinship with others based on a mere circumstance. This, I suppose, allows the Baron to become offended when others do not act in accordance to the role which he has attempted to impose upon them. Such it seems with his "swordsiblings," his "students," and, of course, his "women." No wonder the Baron constantly feels betrayed; nobody ever lives up to what he assumes of them...
never mind that perhaps they've never accepted the role in the first place.
Really, Elijah, it's horribly petty and infantile on your part to assume that the Baroness' "failure" to congratulate you has anything to do with Lupton. I would echo the words spoken in a Terran motion picture once; a wealthy playboy, upon accepting an offer to compete in a sporting contest for large sums of money against his father's old business partner, who attempted to convince the playboy to decline based on old family friendships, responded:
"You know, Judge... Dad... never liked you."
I imagine the Baroness is simply too polite and decent-hearted to say so herself. Of course, I could be wrong...
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: takcouma@aol.com (Takcouma)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 15:18:37 EDT
<<While you may not
care, your lack of congratulations for me and that you chose to make a post like this deeply hurts me, and it seems to me you have suffered the taint of Lupton's company.>>
A lack of congratulations coming from Baroness Simini, Elijah seems irrelevant to the situation. Tis makin' me wonder that more weight was shed upon tis action rather than the truth of Simini's words. One thing fer sure though tis that the truth does seem to hurt. Preference fer a caller given to the title holder tis nae written in the rules and that to me implies that both parties will fall to traditions and hopefully agreeable caller chosen
circumstances.
Ah....Aye...the truth it does hurt.
Marit Takcouma.
Date: 26 Sep 1999 15:18:37 EDT
<<While you may not
care, your lack of congratulations for me and that you chose to make a post like this deeply hurts me, and it seems to me you have suffered the taint of Lupton's company.>>
A lack of congratulations coming from Baroness Simini, Elijah seems irrelevant to the situation. Tis makin' me wonder that more weight was shed upon tis action rather than the truth of Simini's words. One thing fer sure though tis that the truth does seem to hurt. Preference fer a caller given to the title holder tis nae written in the rules and that to me implies that both parties will fall to traditions and hopefully agreeable caller chosen
circumstances.
Ah....Aye...the truth it does hurt.
Marit Takcouma.
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From: simini@aol.com (Simini)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 15:57:59 EDT
Me: It is a custom of some individuals for the Challenged to offer the date and time, and the Challenger to offer a particular official.
Elijah: Wrong, it is a tradition many people favor, and it is a custom that some individuals do not follow this course.
Elijah, you are not the only one that has been a participant in the Duels since before the original Tourney of Nine. At no time since then until my recent (and only) hiatus from dueling have I *ever* heard of this "tradition"... and yes, my friendship and participation in these Challenges as Lady of Honor and such would put me in a position to know of them.
Indeed, it was not until my return to dueling did I hear of this "tradition". This would therefore make this practice a relatively new one, nae something that has been passed from generation to generation of duelist. Therefore, it is a custom belonging to a few individuals.
Elijah: No where is it actually written that both parties must agree.
Did I state that it was written so? I will repeat the relevant statement in the Rules: "...all challenges must be answered within one week of validation and dueled within two weeks of the response." As I said, the only rule is that the duel be completed. Which obviously requires that both parties agree upon a date, time and caller, else the match would not take place.
Elijah: It is obvious this post was directed at me because of the recent events of my challenge with Lupton.
My missive was not directed at you, Elijah. If I have something to say to you directly, I will address you directly, as I have done so far in this post. Indeed, I thought the topic needed addressing because it has become clear that there is much confusion on this issue - you may want to reread Drey Starke's missive as an example.
Additionally, you may be interested in knowing that I disagreed with Lupton when he presented this "tradition" to Drey when Drey challenged him for the Sixth. Lupton offered Drey a date and time for the match, stating it was "tradition" for him as the Challenged to do so. Lupton, however, did not confuse it with the rule that *does* require a date, time and official to be eventually agreed upon.
Elijah: It is as well obvious to me that you must not consider me much of a Swordbrother since you didn't even bother to congratulate me for winning my first Baronial defense, despite the fact your boyfriend was the loser.
It is obvious that you do not consider me much of a Swordsister if you think me capable of such behavior.
Elijah: All I did is what has been done many times before and considered acceptable practice.
It is not considered acceptable practice to demand a withdrawal of a Challenge simply because the Challenger could not meet the Challenged's suggested date and time. Indeed, acceptable practice is to work with the Challenger until a mutually agreeable date and time has been found.
Elijah: Preference has always gone on the side of the title holder, because frankly they have earned it for winning and holding the prize.
What they have earned for holding the prize is a custom, followed by some individuals, to make the first offer of a date and time.
Elijah: ...your lack of congratulations for me and that you chose to make a post like this deeply hurts me
The duel was well-fought, there is nae any doubt about that - especially by you, as evidenced by your come-from-behind victory. However, I did not congratulate you because I felt your conduct prior to the match was unbecoming of a Baron, and unbecoming of a student of Fandral Kurgan. The fact that you behaved in this manner and yet made a show of looking to the Bishop's banner in reverance in the middle of the match sickened me worse.
Date: 26 Sep 1999 15:57:59 EDT
Me: It is a custom of some individuals for the Challenged to offer the date and time, and the Challenger to offer a particular official.
Elijah: Wrong, it is a tradition many people favor, and it is a custom that some individuals do not follow this course.
Elijah, you are not the only one that has been a participant in the Duels since before the original Tourney of Nine. At no time since then until my recent (and only) hiatus from dueling have I *ever* heard of this "tradition"... and yes, my friendship and participation in these Challenges as Lady of Honor and such would put me in a position to know of them.
Indeed, it was not until my return to dueling did I hear of this "tradition". This would therefore make this practice a relatively new one, nae something that has been passed from generation to generation of duelist. Therefore, it is a custom belonging to a few individuals.
Elijah: No where is it actually written that both parties must agree.
Did I state that it was written so? I will repeat the relevant statement in the Rules: "...all challenges must be answered within one week of validation and dueled within two weeks of the response." As I said, the only rule is that the duel be completed. Which obviously requires that both parties agree upon a date, time and caller, else the match would not take place.
Elijah: It is obvious this post was directed at me because of the recent events of my challenge with Lupton.
My missive was not directed at you, Elijah. If I have something to say to you directly, I will address you directly, as I have done so far in this post. Indeed, I thought the topic needed addressing because it has become clear that there is much confusion on this issue - you may want to reread Drey Starke's missive as an example.
Additionally, you may be interested in knowing that I disagreed with Lupton when he presented this "tradition" to Drey when Drey challenged him for the Sixth. Lupton offered Drey a date and time for the match, stating it was "tradition" for him as the Challenged to do so. Lupton, however, did not confuse it with the rule that *does* require a date, time and official to be eventually agreed upon.
Elijah: It is as well obvious to me that you must not consider me much of a Swordbrother since you didn't even bother to congratulate me for winning my first Baronial defense, despite the fact your boyfriend was the loser.
It is obvious that you do not consider me much of a Swordsister if you think me capable of such behavior.
Elijah: All I did is what has been done many times before and considered acceptable practice.
It is not considered acceptable practice to demand a withdrawal of a Challenge simply because the Challenger could not meet the Challenged's suggested date and time. Indeed, acceptable practice is to work with the Challenger until a mutually agreeable date and time has been found.
Elijah: Preference has always gone on the side of the title holder, because frankly they have earned it for winning and holding the prize.
What they have earned for holding the prize is a custom, followed by some individuals, to make the first offer of a date and time.
Elijah: ...your lack of congratulations for me and that you chose to make a post like this deeply hurts me
The duel was well-fought, there is nae any doubt about that - especially by you, as evidenced by your come-from-behind victory. However, I did not congratulate you because I felt your conduct prior to the match was unbecoming of a Baron, and unbecoming of a student of Fandral Kurgan. The fact that you behaved in this manner and yet made a show of looking to the Bishop's banner in reverance in the middle of the match sickened me worse.
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From: elijaheagleecore@aol.com (ElijahEagleEcore)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 16:33:16 EDT
>However, I did not congratulate you because I felt your conduct prior to the
>match was unbecoming of a Baron, and unbecoming of a student of Fandral
>Kurgan.
Simini,
If your going to make such a statement then care to explain? Or are you gonna be like everyone else in my life here who tells me I did something wrong, but won't explain what I did wrong? How is anyone supposed to learn around here if people insult them and make them feel like crap for doing something wrong, but won't tell them why or what they did wrong? It pisses me off to get yelled at for being a screw up, yet no one bothers to explain what
it is exaclty I did wrong or why what I did was wrong, except just say I am wrong.
If your referring to the behavior of trying to schedule the match, then look at your own man, Lupton. He was the one who was the difficult one to start with. He was the one who though I offered options, he offered nothing, except refuse everything I offered. If his schedule was such a problem and he couldn't make my times, then why didn't he suggest times and dates that would fit his schedule? Am I supposed to read his mind and know his life,
and consider his life more important than my own schedule? I offered compromises and choices and he would have none of it, except only to refuse everything, yet offer nothing. I never demanded he withdraw, I said if he couldn't meet the times then he should consider. I had great joy and satisfaction in beating him that I was looking forward to since he issued challenge. And while you claim the post wasn't directed at me, I found it ironic you
decided to post it the day after your boyfriend lost to me when this was a issue, as some sort of post mortem dirty attack.
>Elijah: It is as well obvious to me that you must not consider me much of a
>Swordbrother since you didn't even bother to congratulate me for winning my
>first Baronial defense, despite the fact your boyfriend was the loser.
>
>It is obvious that you do not consider me much of a Swordsister if you think
>me capable of such behavior.
>
You are right, I don't consider you much of a Swordsister because that was your behavior. Ever since you started dating Lupton, I have watched you basically ignore my exsistence. Which is fine, though contrary to what Ian MacKenzie believes, we were very close at one time, and of swordsibling relation. Maybe if you paid more attention back in the old days you might know what
traditions were and were not. If you were turely a student of Fandral Kurgan in that you paid attention to his lessons, two things would be evident now.
1. You might have a better understanding of traditions.
2. As a title holder you would have at least minium record of what it takes to become a title holder. Which I find ironic since you claim you plan to duel more and try to improve your record as you yourself claim a title holder should have a more respectable record, and yet already the first month of the cycle has gone by without you having put forth any effort.
As Guardian of the Seventh till Draco fails me,
~Elijah Eagle Ecore~
~Baron of Swords~
Date: 26 Sep 1999 16:33:16 EDT
>However, I did not congratulate you because I felt your conduct prior to the
>match was unbecoming of a Baron, and unbecoming of a student of Fandral
>Kurgan.
Simini,
If your going to make such a statement then care to explain? Or are you gonna be like everyone else in my life here who tells me I did something wrong, but won't explain what I did wrong? How is anyone supposed to learn around here if people insult them and make them feel like crap for doing something wrong, but won't tell them why or what they did wrong? It pisses me off to get yelled at for being a screw up, yet no one bothers to explain what
it is exaclty I did wrong or why what I did was wrong, except just say I am wrong.
If your referring to the behavior of trying to schedule the match, then look at your own man, Lupton. He was the one who was the difficult one to start with. He was the one who though I offered options, he offered nothing, except refuse everything I offered. If his schedule was such a problem and he couldn't make my times, then why didn't he suggest times and dates that would fit his schedule? Am I supposed to read his mind and know his life,
and consider his life more important than my own schedule? I offered compromises and choices and he would have none of it, except only to refuse everything, yet offer nothing. I never demanded he withdraw, I said if he couldn't meet the times then he should consider. I had great joy and satisfaction in beating him that I was looking forward to since he issued challenge. And while you claim the post wasn't directed at me, I found it ironic you
decided to post it the day after your boyfriend lost to me when this was a issue, as some sort of post mortem dirty attack.
>Elijah: It is as well obvious to me that you must not consider me much of a
>Swordbrother since you didn't even bother to congratulate me for winning my
>first Baronial defense, despite the fact your boyfriend was the loser.
>
>It is obvious that you do not consider me much of a Swordsister if you think
>me capable of such behavior.
>
You are right, I don't consider you much of a Swordsister because that was your behavior. Ever since you started dating Lupton, I have watched you basically ignore my exsistence. Which is fine, though contrary to what Ian MacKenzie believes, we were very close at one time, and of swordsibling relation. Maybe if you paid more attention back in the old days you might know what
traditions were and were not. If you were turely a student of Fandral Kurgan in that you paid attention to his lessons, two things would be evident now.
1. You might have a better understanding of traditions.
2. As a title holder you would have at least minium record of what it takes to become a title holder. Which I find ironic since you claim you plan to duel more and try to improve your record as you yourself claim a title holder should have a more respectable record, and yet already the first month of the cycle has gone by without you having put forth any effort.
As Guardian of the Seventh till Draco fails me,
~Elijah Eagle Ecore~
~Baron of Swords~
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From: ianmackenzie@aol.com (Ian MacKenzie)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 17:17:16 EDT
Elijah:
You said, "You are right, I don't consider you much of a Swordsister because that was your behavior."
I'd like to point out that perhaps it's no surprise that the Baroness' opinion of you has soured. Since your latest return, you've railed against the Barons and the Council - a body she is part of - essentially calling them all worthless and in need of removal to further your own plans. You've railed against everyone you ever knew - another group she's included in - accusing them all in general terms of having betrayed you.
Is it really any wonder if you're not her favorite person? Is it really a surprise that perhaps she simply didn't care to see you win?
I have tried... Lord, how I have tried... to get you to understand over time that you bring these things on yourself... but, alas, I fear that, as usual, it is your demons to blame, rather than you.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
Date: 26 Sep 1999 17:17:16 EDT
Elijah:
You said, "You are right, I don't consider you much of a Swordsister because that was your behavior."
I'd like to point out that perhaps it's no surprise that the Baroness' opinion of you has soured. Since your latest return, you've railed against the Barons and the Council - a body she is part of - essentially calling them all worthless and in need of removal to further your own plans. You've railed against everyone you ever knew - another group she's included in - accusing them all in general terms of having betrayed you.
Is it really any wonder if you're not her favorite person? Is it really a surprise that perhaps she simply didn't care to see you win?
I have tried... Lord, how I have tried... to get you to understand over time that you bring these things on yourself... but, alas, I fear that, as usual, it is your demons to blame, rather than you.
Regards,
Ian Rex.
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 17:47:27 EDT
"And while you claim the post wasn't directed at me, I found it ironic you
decided to post it the day after your boyfriend lost to me when this was a issue, as some sort of post mortem dirty attack."
Sometimes it doesn't chance upon someone's mind to bring it up until some issue occurs where it's mentioned. Moreover, it's easier for someone to see the wrong in something when someone special to them is directly affected by it.
I was one of the people who wanted Lupton to win... for a few reasons. First of all, Lupton doesn't have the gall to call someone a swordbrother/swordsister after he announces plans to fulfill some scheme to take over the council.
He doesn't say, "I don't care about anyone anymore" and suddenly gets hurt when someone decides not to be buddy-buddy with him.
I'm still curious as to how you can call someone a swordsister when you already announced you don't care about anyone.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Phantom Scots Captain
Baron of the Tenth
Sorcerer of DoM
Date: 26 Sep 1999 17:47:27 EDT
"And while you claim the post wasn't directed at me, I found it ironic you
decided to post it the day after your boyfriend lost to me when this was a issue, as some sort of post mortem dirty attack."
Sometimes it doesn't chance upon someone's mind to bring it up until some issue occurs where it's mentioned. Moreover, it's easier for someone to see the wrong in something when someone special to them is directly affected by it.
I was one of the people who wanted Lupton to win... for a few reasons. First of all, Lupton doesn't have the gall to call someone a swordbrother/swordsister after he announces plans to fulfill some scheme to take over the council.
He doesn't say, "I don't care about anyone anymore" and suddenly gets hurt when someone decides not to be buddy-buddy with him.
I'm still curious as to how you can call someone a swordsister when you already announced you don't care about anyone.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Phantom Scots Captain
Baron of the Tenth
Sorcerer of DoM
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 19:29:25 EDT
Simini,
You wrote:
The rule requires both parties to agree upon a date, time and official and complete the match. Custom and tradition require nothing.
Unless there has been some recent official statement on the matter, I must disagree. Several times in the past it has been officially stated (including, by myself when I had been in such a position to make official statements) that the rules attribute the right to choose the date, time and location of the challenge match to the title holder. The appropriate line from the Universal Terms of Challenge reads:
Any challenge not responded to within one week,
setting a time and place, shall be considered an
abdication.
This clause not only making it the right of the title holder, but also a requirement. We might argue as to how that clause should be interpreted, but I fear that would be entirely academic. Until, or unless, the present Supervisor alters the interpretation, precedent would have to be considered rule.
To continue along the path of the definitions you gave, it has been a tradition that the two parties agree on the date and time of the match ... though, as with all traditions, this is not always followed. Further more, it would be customary for some to allow the Challenger to choose the Official to oversee the match.
I've no wish to get involved in a family dispute here, but thought it appropriate to insert this bit of precedent.
~ Kalamere
Date: 26 Sep 1999 19:29:25 EDT
Simini,
You wrote:
The rule requires both parties to agree upon a date, time and official and complete the match. Custom and tradition require nothing.
Unless there has been some recent official statement on the matter, I must disagree. Several times in the past it has been officially stated (including, by myself when I had been in such a position to make official statements) that the rules attribute the right to choose the date, time and location of the challenge match to the title holder. The appropriate line from the Universal Terms of Challenge reads:
Any challenge not responded to within one week,
setting a time and place, shall be considered an
abdication.
This clause not only making it the right of the title holder, but also a requirement. We might argue as to how that clause should be interpreted, but I fear that would be entirely academic. Until, or unless, the present Supervisor alters the interpretation, precedent would have to be considered rule.
To continue along the path of the definitions you gave, it has been a tradition that the two parties agree on the date and time of the match ... though, as with all traditions, this is not always followed. Further more, it would be customary for some to allow the Challenger to choose the Official to oversee the match.
I've no wish to get involved in a family dispute here, but thought it appropriate to insert this bit of precedent.
~ Kalamere
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From: jeffoakenshield@aol.com (Jeff Oakenshield)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 21:59:28 EDT
Rather odd how Elijah is suddenly so interested in why we consider him a "screw up", yet in *many* previous posts he conveyed his attitude as one of indifference. When he's in "bad boy" mode, I suppose its alright fer all of us ta take our opinions and shove 'em.
Its also rather amusing ta hear how Elijah speaks of continuing on Fandral Kurgan's traditions and observing his teachings, yet when I spoke ta Bishop in person he had quite a different view of what Elijah was doing in his name...
Amusing.
Commenting on baronial challenge matches, I feel it absolutely necessary dat both challenger and baron agree on a date and time. After all, both must be present fer da match ta occur. However, I find it ta be a courtesy, not a rule, ta allow da baron ta choose his own caller. I respect some people do not get along, and in such a case I would agree a new caller must be chosen. But choosing da caller ta officiate what might be da baron's last
defense is simply a perk of da rank. Also, should da challenger win, I'm sure he or she would like ta be extended da same courtesy upon obtaining da rank of baron.
~J
Date: 26 Sep 1999 21:59:28 EDT
Rather odd how Elijah is suddenly so interested in why we consider him a "screw up", yet in *many* previous posts he conveyed his attitude as one of indifference. When he's in "bad boy" mode, I suppose its alright fer all of us ta take our opinions and shove 'em.
Its also rather amusing ta hear how Elijah speaks of continuing on Fandral Kurgan's traditions and observing his teachings, yet when I spoke ta Bishop in person he had quite a different view of what Elijah was doing in his name...
Amusing.
Commenting on baronial challenge matches, I feel it absolutely necessary dat both challenger and baron agree on a date and time. After all, both must be present fer da match ta occur. However, I find it ta be a courtesy, not a rule, ta allow da baron ta choose his own caller. I respect some people do not get along, and in such a case I would agree a new caller must be chosen. But choosing da caller ta officiate what might be da baron's last
defense is simply a perk of da rank. Also, should da challenger win, I'm sure he or she would like ta be extended da same courtesy upon obtaining da rank of baron.
~J
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 23:20:25 EDT
Though I have no proof Jeff, but I do recall asking you in person about this subject. You 'never' said it was necessary for my challenge versus Lupton that the we both agreed upon the date. In fact, you claimed it tradition and that he is right and allowed.
Lupton even told me to ask you upon the matter, expecting you to speak it necessary for the challenged to set the date.
You did say that you set the date with the challenger's input. Yes, but you never felt it "necessary."
But again, I've no proof of you saying, just that I heard it.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
Date: 26 Sep 1999 23:20:25 EDT
Though I have no proof Jeff, but I do recall asking you in person about this subject. You 'never' said it was necessary for my challenge versus Lupton that the we both agreed upon the date. In fact, you claimed it tradition and that he is right and allowed.
Lupton even told me to ask you upon the matter, expecting you to speak it necessary for the challenged to set the date.
You did say that you set the date with the challenger's input. Yes, but you never felt it "necessary."
But again, I've no proof of you saying, just that I heard it.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
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From: carnage669@aol.com (Carnage669)
Date: 26 Sep 1999 23:26:25 EDT
> If his schedule was such a problem and he couldn't make my times, then why
>didn't he suggest times and dates that would fit his schedule?
I believe Lupton did say he was free most evenings and weekends...those sounds like times and dates to me.
Cletus
Date: 26 Sep 1999 23:26:25 EDT
> If his schedule was such a problem and he couldn't make my times, then why
>didn't he suggest times and dates that would fit his schedule?
I believe Lupton did say he was free most evenings and weekends...those sounds like times and dates to me.
Cletus
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From: simini@aol.com (Simini)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 01:35:28 EDT
Elijah, the fact that you take my original post as directed at you, and then retaliate with excoriation further disheartens me. In another circumstance, I would ignore the irrelevant response completely; however, because we did have a close personal relationship in the past, I will respond - to each attack, once. Further personal attacks from you will be disregarded.
Elijah: ...we were very close at one time, and of swordsibling relation.
We once had a close personal relationship outside of the rings. We also trained together as members of Bishop's Chapel. Neither relationship consititutes SwordSiblings.
Elijah: Maybe if you paid more attention back in the old days you might know what
traditions were and were not.
I have already stated my involvement with Challenge matches in the early days of the Barons. Several times did I stand as a Second or Lady of Honor, and was close enough to the duelist I stood by to be aware of how the particulars were agreed upon.
However, should this not be enough, I have consulted with more than one person that was a titleholder in that era, and every one stated that to their knowledge, the custom of requiring the Challenger to succumb to the incumbent's suggestion of a date/time for the Challenge match is a relatively new one - if they were aware of such a custom at all.
Elijah: If you were turely a student of Fandral Kurgan in that you paid attention to his lessons, two things would be evident now.
1. You might have a better understanding of traditions.
Oh? As I recall, Bishop made a concerted effort not to teach particular traditions or customs. His method of teaching was in fact, purely strategy-oriented. As I am sure you recall, the last statement Master Kurgan ever made regarding his students was that the Chapel was a place of training with the blade, not a school of etiquette.
2. As a title holder you would have at least minium record of what it takes to become a title holder. Which I find ironic since you claim you plan to duel more and try to improve your record as you yourself claim a title holder should have a more respectable record, and yet already the first month of the cycle has gone by without you having put forth any effort.
While I am not at all sure how this would or would not be "evidence" of the fact that I was a student of Bishop's, I stated that I would respond to your personal attacks - once - regardless of their relevancy.
As is public fact, I made that statement before falling ill for several weeks. Since then I have spent all of my time either working for the Duel of Swords in an official capacity, or dueling. Yes, dueling... please consult the current Standings when they are made public before stating your "facts."
Elijah: Ever since you started dating Lupton, I have watched you basically ignore my exsistence.
I was not aware that I have paid any less attention to you of late than in previous times. Indeed, it seems that I have often, over the years, put considerable effort into ignoring your tirades.
Elijah: If his schedule was such a problem and he couldn't make my times, then why didn't he suggest times and dates that would fit his schedule? Am I supposed to read his mind and know his life...
I believe the following excerpt from Lupton's response to you (excerpted from mail sent to the Baron's Council and a few Staff) answers all of your questions, including your repeated accusations that he never offered an alternative. I answer your accusations of Lupton with Lup's own words; I will not continue to do so. From this point on, Lupton will respond to these accusations on his own.
Excerpt:
" The time chosen is unacceptable, not because of flimsy whim, but because two priorities, which both surpass this sport, my children and my duty as an Emperor, prevent my dueling at that time. It has been noted by Golden on previous occasions that should an extreme reason prevent a challenger from accepting, he can refuse the time. It's been said, further, that both must agree. My children are not
worth deserting, if even for an hour, for your ring.
The earliest I can duel that day is six and a half hours past noon. Later would be preferred, but I can be inconvenienced and bend to that time.
As a courtesy for this inability to meet your time, I will concede my right to have a voice concerning a referee. Any referee, excluding Stormi, is suitable.
I am willing to be flexible. I hope you can, as well."
I will now continue with a more relevant response to my missive and address Kalamere.
((Author's Note: As much fun as this is, I'm letting everyone know that I will be offline for a week starting Tuesday, so when Sim doesn't respond after that point... you know why. :) ))
Date: 27 Sep 1999 01:35:28 EDT
Elijah, the fact that you take my original post as directed at you, and then retaliate with excoriation further disheartens me. In another circumstance, I would ignore the irrelevant response completely; however, because we did have a close personal relationship in the past, I will respond - to each attack, once. Further personal attacks from you will be disregarded.
Elijah: ...we were very close at one time, and of swordsibling relation.
We once had a close personal relationship outside of the rings. We also trained together as members of Bishop's Chapel. Neither relationship consititutes SwordSiblings.
Elijah: Maybe if you paid more attention back in the old days you might know what
traditions were and were not.
I have already stated my involvement with Challenge matches in the early days of the Barons. Several times did I stand as a Second or Lady of Honor, and was close enough to the duelist I stood by to be aware of how the particulars were agreed upon.
However, should this not be enough, I have consulted with more than one person that was a titleholder in that era, and every one stated that to their knowledge, the custom of requiring the Challenger to succumb to the incumbent's suggestion of a date/time for the Challenge match is a relatively new one - if they were aware of such a custom at all.
Elijah: If you were turely a student of Fandral Kurgan in that you paid attention to his lessons, two things would be evident now.
1. You might have a better understanding of traditions.
Oh? As I recall, Bishop made a concerted effort not to teach particular traditions or customs. His method of teaching was in fact, purely strategy-oriented. As I am sure you recall, the last statement Master Kurgan ever made regarding his students was that the Chapel was a place of training with the blade, not a school of etiquette.
2. As a title holder you would have at least minium record of what it takes to become a title holder. Which I find ironic since you claim you plan to duel more and try to improve your record as you yourself claim a title holder should have a more respectable record, and yet already the first month of the cycle has gone by without you having put forth any effort.
While I am not at all sure how this would or would not be "evidence" of the fact that I was a student of Bishop's, I stated that I would respond to your personal attacks - once - regardless of their relevancy.
As is public fact, I made that statement before falling ill for several weeks. Since then I have spent all of my time either working for the Duel of Swords in an official capacity, or dueling. Yes, dueling... please consult the current Standings when they are made public before stating your "facts."
Elijah: Ever since you started dating Lupton, I have watched you basically ignore my exsistence.
I was not aware that I have paid any less attention to you of late than in previous times. Indeed, it seems that I have often, over the years, put considerable effort into ignoring your tirades.
Elijah: If his schedule was such a problem and he couldn't make my times, then why didn't he suggest times and dates that would fit his schedule? Am I supposed to read his mind and know his life...
I believe the following excerpt from Lupton's response to you (excerpted from mail sent to the Baron's Council and a few Staff) answers all of your questions, including your repeated accusations that he never offered an alternative. I answer your accusations of Lupton with Lup's own words; I will not continue to do so. From this point on, Lupton will respond to these accusations on his own.
Excerpt:
" The time chosen is unacceptable, not because of flimsy whim, but because two priorities, which both surpass this sport, my children and my duty as an Emperor, prevent my dueling at that time. It has been noted by Golden on previous occasions that should an extreme reason prevent a challenger from accepting, he can refuse the time. It's been said, further, that both must agree. My children are not
worth deserting, if even for an hour, for your ring.
The earliest I can duel that day is six and a half hours past noon. Later would be preferred, but I can be inconvenienced and bend to that time.
As a courtesy for this inability to meet your time, I will concede my right to have a voice concerning a referee. Any referee, excluding Stormi, is suitable.
I am willing to be flexible. I hope you can, as well."
I will now continue with a more relevant response to my missive and address Kalamere.
((Author's Note: As much fun as this is, I'm letting everyone know that I will be offline for a week starting Tuesday, so when Sim doesn't respond after that point... you know why. :) ))
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From: jeffoakenshield@aol.com (Jeff Oakenshield)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 01:36:02 EDT
What's your point Drey? What proof do you need?
You act as if I did or believe something dishonorable.
I do acknowledge da tradition dat challenged barons are often given da right ta set da date and time ta deir liking, however it is not a practice I partake in. Any one of my challengers will tell you I approach and ask deir input fer a suitable date. I never once have set a date a challenger could not attend.
So if yer lookin' fer somethin' ta pick on, look somewhere else.
~J
Date: 27 Sep 1999 01:36:02 EDT
What's your point Drey? What proof do you need?
You act as if I did or believe something dishonorable.
I do acknowledge da tradition dat challenged barons are often given da right ta set da date and time ta deir liking, however it is not a practice I partake in. Any one of my challengers will tell you I approach and ask deir input fer a suitable date. I never once have set a date a challenger could not attend.
So if yer lookin' fer somethin' ta pick on, look somewhere else.
~J
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From: simini@aol.com (Simini)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 01:38:10 EDT
Kalamere,
Believe it or not, I agree with what you stated.
The appropriate line from the Universal Terms of Challenge reads:
Any challenge not responded to within one week,
setting a time and place, shall be considered an
abdication.
This clause not only making it the right of the title holder, but also a requirement.
I believe, Kal, that you and I are simply discussing differing portions of the Rules - one contention is irrelevant to the other.
The Rule you referenced describes only the response required of an incumbent titleholder, without which the titleholder abdicates. It does not address any requirement of the Challenger to accept the proposed date, time, caller, or any other particular.
The Rule I referenced, however, states that the Challenge must be completed within a certain amount of time. How can this be accomplished without an agreed-upon time and date?
If precedent is to be relied upon, it can be shown that:
1) The vast majority of Challenges have been scheduled during hours most easily attended by a majority of duelists - namely, the evening.
2) In most - indeed, to my knowledge, all - cases where the Challenger could not meet at the incumbent's first proposed time, a mutually acceptable compromise was reached.
Therefore, even in a common-law system, it can be shown that there is NO precedent for punishing a Challenger due to the Challenger's openly declared inability to meet the incumbent's first chosen deadline.
Of course, should the Acting Supervisor care to comment upon this issue, I would be interested in what she has to say.
~ Simini
Date: 27 Sep 1999 01:38:10 EDT
Kalamere,
Believe it or not, I agree with what you stated.
The appropriate line from the Universal Terms of Challenge reads:
Any challenge not responded to within one week,
setting a time and place, shall be considered an
abdication.
This clause not only making it the right of the title holder, but also a requirement.
I believe, Kal, that you and I are simply discussing differing portions of the Rules - one contention is irrelevant to the other.
The Rule you referenced describes only the response required of an incumbent titleholder, without which the titleholder abdicates. It does not address any requirement of the Challenger to accept the proposed date, time, caller, or any other particular.
The Rule I referenced, however, states that the Challenge must be completed within a certain amount of time. How can this be accomplished without an agreed-upon time and date?
If precedent is to be relied upon, it can be shown that:
1) The vast majority of Challenges have been scheduled during hours most easily attended by a majority of duelists - namely, the evening.
2) In most - indeed, to my knowledge, all - cases where the Challenger could not meet at the incumbent's first proposed time, a mutually acceptable compromise was reached.
Therefore, even in a common-law system, it can be shown that there is NO precedent for punishing a Challenger due to the Challenger's openly declared inability to meet the incumbent's first chosen deadline.
Of course, should the Acting Supervisor care to comment upon this issue, I would be interested in what she has to say.
~ Simini