From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 02 Jan 2000 17:46:05 EST
I had one of the most interesting discussions with a Baron. I am not sure whether I am right or wrong, so I propose a question.
This Baron was going to change alignment because of fellow Barons (This the main reason, for there were others) whom he/she didn't like. He/she was embarassed by them, so he/she said. That he/she would change alignment. He/she isn't, but he/she thought about it.
Is this Baron actually worth something to the Overlord, if he/she doesn't have him in high enough regard to direct his stance only to the Overlord?
Should a Baron, if he/she has any question about an Overlord, or the slightest doubt, should he/she change alignment?
Should a Baron realign himself because he/she doesn't like fellow Barons that hold the same alignment?
(Practically restating here) Should a Baron change alignment because he/she is embarassed by his/her peers?
Should a Baron only regard his/her stance toward the Overlord, and nothing more? (Meaning, his/her stance has nothing to do with the Barons, but just the Overlord himself.)
Wondering,
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
Wondering
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 02 Jan 2000 18:56:10 EST
> Should a Baron realign himself because he/she doesn't like fellow Barons
>that hold the same alignment?
No.
> Should a Baron, if he/she has any question about an Overlord, or the
>slightest doubt, should he/she change alignment?
No. They should discuss it with the Overlord first.
>Should a Baron only regard his/her stance toward the Overlord, and nothing
>more? (Meaning, his/her stance has nothing to do with the Barons, but just
>the Overlord himself.)
No. They should consider the Overlords Stance in conjunction with the betterment of the Dueling Community.
Date: 02 Jan 2000 18:56:10 EST
> Should a Baron realign himself because he/she doesn't like fellow Barons
>that hold the same alignment?
No.
> Should a Baron, if he/she has any question about an Overlord, or the
>slightest doubt, should he/she change alignment?
No. They should discuss it with the Overlord first.
>Should a Baron only regard his/her stance toward the Overlord, and nothing
>more? (Meaning, his/her stance has nothing to do with the Barons, but just
>the Overlord himself.)
No. They should consider the Overlords Stance in conjunction with the betterment of the Dueling Community.
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From: sidarthax@aol.com (Sidartha x)
Date: 02 Jan 2000 20:20:12 EST
> Should a Baron realign himself because he/she doesn't like fellow Barons
>that hold the same alignment?
Of course not. One's alignment is towards the Overlord, not towards fellow Barons.
> Should a Baron, if he/she has any question about an Overlord, or the
>slightest doubt, should he/she change alignment?
Without even trying to resolve the problem or trying to make sure the doubts are not unfounded? Of course not.
>Should a Baron only regard his/her stance toward the Overlord, and nothing
>more? (Meaning, his/her stance has nothing to do with the Barons, but just
>the Overlord himself.)
A Baron should base his alignment on how well he believes the Overlord is leading the Community, not how he feels about other Barons.
~Sidartha
Date: 02 Jan 2000 20:20:12 EST
> Should a Baron realign himself because he/she doesn't like fellow Barons
>that hold the same alignment?
Of course not. One's alignment is towards the Overlord, not towards fellow Barons.
> Should a Baron, if he/she has any question about an Overlord, or the
>slightest doubt, should he/she change alignment?
Without even trying to resolve the problem or trying to make sure the doubts are not unfounded? Of course not.
>Should a Baron only regard his/her stance toward the Overlord, and nothing
>more? (Meaning, his/her stance has nothing to do with the Barons, but just
>the Overlord himself.)
A Baron should base his alignment on how well he believes the Overlord is leading the Community, not how he feels about other Barons.
~Sidartha
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From: khrystawlf@aol.com (KhrystaWlf)
Date: 02 Jan 2000 20:26:54 EST
Drey....
I've never been a true Baron.... the closest I've come in the more than two years I've been here is an Honorary Title as a place winner in The House Oakenshield Tourney, which certainly doesn't qualify me to represent myself as a past Baron...... But in spite of that, I think that I might be able to speak to this, although not as eloquently as many others, I'm sure.
The reasons for a Baron's alignment are numerous and varied.... as numerous and varied as there are Barons, and past Barons. Each is valid as far as the title holder is concerned, and each, most likely, makes no sense to at least one member of the DoS Community.
My personal belief is that a Baron should choose his alignment based on his feelings of respect for the current Overlord, and his policies.
Neutral would be if you either have little or no firsthand knowledge of the Overlord and wish to show this, or you take a *Neutralist's* stance in an attempt to maintain balance within the Community. Either is perfectly valid to me. Loyal and Renegade ---- You may adore as a person whomever is Overlord, but disagree vehemently with his or her policies with regard to DoS. You may hate the person, but stand behind his or her policies. In the former
case, I would expect a stance of Renegade... In the latter, a stance of Loyal. Most often it doesn't happen that way. To be honest about it, most often it has to do with how the Baron feels about the Overlord as a person with very little regard to his policies. This is what colours people's views and causes them to change alignment, even though there has been no change in the policies of the Overlord...... Feelings.
Should it be this way? Personally, I say no. Realistically.... There really is no other way that it could be. It's verra difficult to declare Loyalty to someone that you find personally to be loathsome, no matter how you may agree with him/her politically. It's verra difficult as well to declare yourself Renegade to a good friend simply because you disagree on something.
Now... what in Thunder does all of that have to do with your questions?.....
Simply this..... Each Baron should do as he or she feels best serves the Community they represent. If expressing his or her disgust with fellow title holders by changing alignment is honestly what he or she feels is the best way to serve, then they should. But personally, I think they would better serve by open and honest discussion of the situation with the Overlord, as well as with the Barons that he/she had difficulties with.
Just my thoughts on the matter.......
Khrys
Date: 02 Jan 2000 20:26:54 EST
Drey....
I've never been a true Baron.... the closest I've come in the more than two years I've been here is an Honorary Title as a place winner in The House Oakenshield Tourney, which certainly doesn't qualify me to represent myself as a past Baron...... But in spite of that, I think that I might be able to speak to this, although not as eloquently as many others, I'm sure.
The reasons for a Baron's alignment are numerous and varied.... as numerous and varied as there are Barons, and past Barons. Each is valid as far as the title holder is concerned, and each, most likely, makes no sense to at least one member of the DoS Community.
My personal belief is that a Baron should choose his alignment based on his feelings of respect for the current Overlord, and his policies.
Neutral would be if you either have little or no firsthand knowledge of the Overlord and wish to show this, or you take a *Neutralist's* stance in an attempt to maintain balance within the Community. Either is perfectly valid to me. Loyal and Renegade ---- You may adore as a person whomever is Overlord, but disagree vehemently with his or her policies with regard to DoS. You may hate the person, but stand behind his or her policies. In the former
case, I would expect a stance of Renegade... In the latter, a stance of Loyal. Most often it doesn't happen that way. To be honest about it, most often it has to do with how the Baron feels about the Overlord as a person with very little regard to his policies. This is what colours people's views and causes them to change alignment, even though there has been no change in the policies of the Overlord...... Feelings.
Should it be this way? Personally, I say no. Realistically.... There really is no other way that it could be. It's verra difficult to declare Loyalty to someone that you find personally to be loathsome, no matter how you may agree with him/her politically. It's verra difficult as well to declare yourself Renegade to a good friend simply because you disagree on something.
Now... what in Thunder does all of that have to do with your questions?.....
Simply this..... Each Baron should do as he or she feels best serves the Community they represent. If expressing his or her disgust with fellow title holders by changing alignment is honestly what he or she feels is the best way to serve, then they should. But personally, I think they would better serve by open and honest discussion of the situation with the Overlord, as well as with the Barons that he/she had difficulties with.
Just my thoughts on the matter.......
Khrys
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From: daedragonsblade@aol.com (Dae Dragonsblade)
Date: 02 Jan 2000 23:51:14 EST
Just in case peole are wondering, he's talking about me. But of course, he can't listen to anything I actually said so here goes the story..
I've talked to various people (including Avery) about a lot of things. Jokingly, most of the time, I said I was going to switch alignments because most of the Loyalists (then) were idiots. Drey, walked in when Magnus had just asked me to switch alignments. Having no idea of what was going on, Drey jumped the gun and proceeded to accuse Magnus of being something or another and forcing me to turn against Avery ( this first and foremost was not true ).
That having already made me mad, I perked my own interest by telling him what the course of it was ( actually, like I said, I had had this discussion before with numerous people, and I had already made my decision, and here I am ) the talented Drey then accused me of hipocracy and told me flat out that I didn't like Avery. He further went on to say that my Loyalty to Avery was faulty. That really hurt, so I told him to drop it..but now he's brought
it up again, when he happened upon the discussion by eavesdropping. Not that that matters, he's entitled to whatever the hell he wants to do, I'm not going to stop him. Just as you guys are entitled to your opinions of me now, I just decided to end the air of mystery by telling you guys it was me. That was, as I felt, my duty as a Baron. However, since Drey really felt that I was in all seriousness, I talked this over with Avery and both he and I
know where both of us stand in regards with each other, so Drey's opinion on my Loyalty or how he views me, is of little consequence in that regard. I could easily point out things Drey said beforehand, but I'm nice enough to keep his comments to myself and if he wants to talk about them he can go ahead.
::scrawled in blazing blue ink::
~Daelin Dragonsblade~
~Regent King of Dragonia~
~Twice Baron of the Seventh and Current Baron of the Eleventh~
Date: 02 Jan 2000 23:51:14 EST
Just in case peole are wondering, he's talking about me. But of course, he can't listen to anything I actually said so here goes the story..
I've talked to various people (including Avery) about a lot of things. Jokingly, most of the time, I said I was going to switch alignments because most of the Loyalists (then) were idiots. Drey, walked in when Magnus had just asked me to switch alignments. Having no idea of what was going on, Drey jumped the gun and proceeded to accuse Magnus of being something or another and forcing me to turn against Avery ( this first and foremost was not true ).
That having already made me mad, I perked my own interest by telling him what the course of it was ( actually, like I said, I had had this discussion before with numerous people, and I had already made my decision, and here I am ) the talented Drey then accused me of hipocracy and told me flat out that I didn't like Avery. He further went on to say that my Loyalty to Avery was faulty. That really hurt, so I told him to drop it..but now he's brought
it up again, when he happened upon the discussion by eavesdropping. Not that that matters, he's entitled to whatever the hell he wants to do, I'm not going to stop him. Just as you guys are entitled to your opinions of me now, I just decided to end the air of mystery by telling you guys it was me. That was, as I felt, my duty as a Baron. However, since Drey really felt that I was in all seriousness, I talked this over with Avery and both he and I
know where both of us stand in regards with each other, so Drey's opinion on my Loyalty or how he views me, is of little consequence in that regard. I could easily point out things Drey said beforehand, but I'm nice enough to keep his comments to myself and if he wants to talk about them he can go ahead.
::scrawled in blazing blue ink::
~Daelin Dragonsblade~
~Regent King of Dragonia~
~Twice Baron of the Seventh and Current Baron of the Eleventh~
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 03 Jan 2000 00:10:25 EST
I have only one thing to say on this.
Loyalty is based upon many things. Are you loyal to a person, or to the ideals that person purports to represent?
For many, loyalty is a personal thing... no matter how much you agree with a person's goals or ideals, you cannot give your loyalty to that person.
In the end, it must be a personal choice.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
Date: 03 Jan 2000 00:10:25 EST
I have only one thing to say on this.
Loyalty is based upon many things. Are you loyal to a person, or to the ideals that person purports to represent?
For many, loyalty is a personal thing... no matter how much you agree with a person's goals or ideals, you cannot give your loyalty to that person.
In the end, it must be a personal choice.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
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From: daedragonsblade@aol.com (Dae Dragonsblade)
Date: 03 Jan 2000 00:15:07 EST
I am Loyal to what Avery represents for this Community, since it seems to be for our greater good. We disagree on many things, certainly, but we have the same basic principles. But, I don't see how this makes a difference since this was brought up by eavesdropping on a joke..
::scrawled in blazing blue ink::
~Daelin Dragonsblade~
~Regent King of Dragonia~
~Twice Baron of the Seventh and Current Baron of the Eleventh~
Date: 03 Jan 2000 00:15:07 EST
I am Loyal to what Avery represents for this Community, since it seems to be for our greater good. We disagree on many things, certainly, but we have the same basic principles. But, I don't see how this makes a difference since this was brought up by eavesdropping on a joke..
::scrawled in blazing blue ink::
~Daelin Dragonsblade~
~Regent King of Dragonia~
~Twice Baron of the Seventh and Current Baron of the Eleventh~
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From: rlupton@aol.com (RLupton)
Date: 02 Jan 2000 22:29:12 EST
I may determine Loyalty by other Loyals. If the Overlord allows certain people to serve with him, is he a man I wish to pledge loyalty to?
~ Lup
Date: 02 Jan 2000 22:29:12 EST
I may determine Loyalty by other Loyals. If the Overlord allows certain people to serve with him, is he a man I wish to pledge loyalty to?
~ Lup
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 03 Jan 2000 01:40:30 EST
Dae,
If you were smart enough, I said I fell upon an interesting discussion. Never blamed you for anything in this note, but naturally, you're assuming with a bit of accusations.
First off, I never accused you of being a hypocrite. Another thing, you told me directly, you were "embarassed" by fellow Barons, and you further insisted that you would change alignment. You told me, directly, that it was your main reason.
Indeed, I claimed your loyalty false, due to your 'joking' manner. And, as a Patron of the Duel of Swords, I should be able to eavesdrop on anything I want to regarding the sports growth the elements of the upper ranks. If something is not right, I'd be damned if I wasn't allowed to know. Unless it was a very private matter, which this is not. If you would have told me earlier that you were "joking" instead of claiming that I was eavesdropping,
this would have saved a lot of trouble.
Back to the "falter" accusation. Yes, I did. If you don't hold your Overlord in full regard, and hold him in question of his duty, I will hold your alignment in question as Loyal unless you talk it over. You went on to tell me you always respected Avery, and that you told him everything you believed up front. I understood. I did accuse you, and I did believe you should change alignment, unless you answered any problems straight up with Avery.
I hold you know more than a friend, Dae, and this whole posting was not to bash you, but to ask certain questions I wanted to hear.
And please, point out any problems with the above. Anyone. You're a patron, jump in.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
Date: 03 Jan 2000 01:40:30 EST
Dae,
If you were smart enough, I said I fell upon an interesting discussion. Never blamed you for anything in this note, but naturally, you're assuming with a bit of accusations.
First off, I never accused you of being a hypocrite. Another thing, you told me directly, you were "embarassed" by fellow Barons, and you further insisted that you would change alignment. You told me, directly, that it was your main reason.
Indeed, I claimed your loyalty false, due to your 'joking' manner. And, as a Patron of the Duel of Swords, I should be able to eavesdrop on anything I want to regarding the sports growth the elements of the upper ranks. If something is not right, I'd be damned if I wasn't allowed to know. Unless it was a very private matter, which this is not. If you would have told me earlier that you were "joking" instead of claiming that I was eavesdropping,
this would have saved a lot of trouble.
Back to the "falter" accusation. Yes, I did. If you don't hold your Overlord in full regard, and hold him in question of his duty, I will hold your alignment in question as Loyal unless you talk it over. You went on to tell me you always respected Avery, and that you told him everything you believed up front. I understood. I did accuse you, and I did believe you should change alignment, unless you answered any problems straight up with Avery.
I hold you know more than a friend, Dae, and this whole posting was not to bash you, but to ask certain questions I wanted to hear.
And please, point out any problems with the above. Anyone. You're a patron, jump in.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 03 Jan 2000 01:40:30 EST
Dae,
If you were smart enough, I said I fell upon an interesting discussion. Never blamed you for anything in this note, but naturally, you're assuming with a bit of accusations.
First off, I never accused you of being a hypocrite. Another thing, you told me directly, you were "embarassed" by fellow Barons, and you further insisted that you would change alignment. You told me, directly, that it was your main reason.
Indeed, I claimed your loyalty false, due to your 'joking' manner. And, as a Patron of the Duel of Swords, I should be able to eavesdrop on anything I want to regarding the sports growth the elements of the upper ranks. If something is not right, I'd be damned if I wasn't allowed to know. Unless it was a very private matter, which this is not. If you would have told me earlier that you were "joking" instead of claiming that I was eavesdropping,
this would have saved a lot of trouble.
Back to the "falter" accusation. Yes, I did. If you don't hold your Overlord in full regard, and hold him in question of his duty, I will hold your alignment in question as Loyal unless you talk it over. You went on to tell me you always respected Avery, and that you told him everything you believed up front. I understood. I did accuse you, and I did believe you should change alignment, unless you answered any problems straight up with Avery.
I hold you know more than a friend, Dae, and this whole posting was not to bash you, but to ask certain questions I wanted to hear.
And please, point out any problems with the above. Anyone. You're a patron, jump in.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
Date: 03 Jan 2000 01:40:30 EST
Dae,
If you were smart enough, I said I fell upon an interesting discussion. Never blamed you for anything in this note, but naturally, you're assuming with a bit of accusations.
First off, I never accused you of being a hypocrite. Another thing, you told me directly, you were "embarassed" by fellow Barons, and you further insisted that you would change alignment. You told me, directly, that it was your main reason.
Indeed, I claimed your loyalty false, due to your 'joking' manner. And, as a Patron of the Duel of Swords, I should be able to eavesdrop on anything I want to regarding the sports growth the elements of the upper ranks. If something is not right, I'd be damned if I wasn't allowed to know. Unless it was a very private matter, which this is not. If you would have told me earlier that you were "joking" instead of claiming that I was eavesdropping,
this would have saved a lot of trouble.
Back to the "falter" accusation. Yes, I did. If you don't hold your Overlord in full regard, and hold him in question of his duty, I will hold your alignment in question as Loyal unless you talk it over. You went on to tell me you always respected Avery, and that you told him everything you believed up front. I understood. I did accuse you, and I did believe you should change alignment, unless you answered any problems straight up with Avery.
I hold you know more than a friend, Dae, and this whole posting was not to bash you, but to ask certain questions I wanted to hear.
And please, point out any problems with the above. Anyone. You're a patron, jump in.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 03 Jan 2000 02:03:53 EST
Dae,
Your Blazing Blue ink insults me and my superior intellegence.
I'm going renegade or nuetral because I dislike your ink.
Amusedly,
G
Date: 03 Jan 2000 02:03:53 EST
Dae,
Your Blazing Blue ink insults me and my superior intellegence.
I'm going renegade or nuetral because I dislike your ink.
Amusedly,
G
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From: verceterixfavre@aol.com (Verceterix Favre)
Date: 03 Jan 2000 02:13:13 EST
>I should be able to eavesdrop on anything I want to regarding the sports
>growth the elements of the upper ranks.
Actually . . . No, you should not.
Eavesdropping means you do not trust people enough to take their word for what is happening, or you do not believe them and feel the only way you can find out is to intrude on the privacy of others.
Simply because we of the upper ranks are leaders in the community does not mean we must lose all our privacy because of that. Besides, would you rather I directly tell you of my feelings about my position, or would you rather hear about that when I am with my most trusted friends and joking around with them?
And in closing, if I have problems with anyone, those are between myself and that person. I know I would not appreciate a third party entering and telling me what I should do because they were eavesdropping on something that did not concern them.
-Rix
Baron of the Fifth
Date: 03 Jan 2000 02:13:13 EST
>I should be able to eavesdrop on anything I want to regarding the sports
>growth the elements of the upper ranks.
Actually . . . No, you should not.
Eavesdropping means you do not trust people enough to take their word for what is happening, or you do not believe them and feel the only way you can find out is to intrude on the privacy of others.
Simply because we of the upper ranks are leaders in the community does not mean we must lose all our privacy because of that. Besides, would you rather I directly tell you of my feelings about my position, or would you rather hear about that when I am with my most trusted friends and joking around with them?
And in closing, if I have problems with anyone, those are between myself and that person. I know I would not appreciate a third party entering and telling me what I should do because they were eavesdropping on something that did not concern them.
-Rix
Baron of the Fifth
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 03 Jan 2000 02:21:43 EST
<I hold you know more than a friend, Dae, and this whole posting was not to bash you, but to ask certain questions I wanted to hear.>
As a patron of the DoS, Drey, I've found a writing error. It's no, Drey. No.
>I should be able to eavesdrop on anything I want to regarding the sports
>growth or the elements of the upper ranks.
Stupid fool.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
Date: 03 Jan 2000 02:21:43 EST
<I hold you know more than a friend, Dae, and this whole posting was not to bash you, but to ask certain questions I wanted to hear.>
As a patron of the DoS, Drey, I've found a writing error. It's no, Drey. No.
>I should be able to eavesdrop on anything I want to regarding the sports
>growth or the elements of the upper ranks.
Stupid fool.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 03 Jan 2000 02:33:48 EST
G...
I think Avery should banish you to the "Silly" alignment because of your most recent post.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
You deserved that...
Date: 03 Jan 2000 02:33:48 EST
G...
I think Avery should banish you to the "Silly" alignment because of your most recent post.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
You deserved that...
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 03 Jan 2000 02:34:44 EST
Eavesdropping means you do not trust people enough to take their word for what is happening, or you do not believe them and feel the only way you can find out is to intrude on the privacy of others.
Simply because we of the upper ranks are leaders in the community does not mean we must lose all our privacy because of that. Besides, would you rather I directly tell you of my feelings about my position, or would you rather hear about that when I am with my most trusted friends and joking around with them?
Okay, you're positively correct on the above, Rix. I misused the word "eavesdrop." I caught what they were talking about as I moved down the stairs.
Did I not claim in my previous post that I said private matters excluded? This is not a private matter, but a realignment. But he isn't realigning, so this is all phony and dull. Play.
Besides, would you rather I directly tell you of my feelings about my position, or would you rather hear about that when I am with my most trusted friends and joking around with them?
I didn't know whether Dae was serious or not, joking or not, he never told me. From my position, indeed, it was not joking.
> And in closing, if I have problems with anyone, those are between myself
>and that person. I know I would not appreciate a third party entering and
>telling me what I should do because they were eavesdropping on something that
>did not concern them.
Depends on the problem.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
Date: 03 Jan 2000 02:34:44 EST
Eavesdropping means you do not trust people enough to take their word for what is happening, or you do not believe them and feel the only way you can find out is to intrude on the privacy of others.
Simply because we of the upper ranks are leaders in the community does not mean we must lose all our privacy because of that. Besides, would you rather I directly tell you of my feelings about my position, or would you rather hear about that when I am with my most trusted friends and joking around with them?
Okay, you're positively correct on the above, Rix. I misused the word "eavesdrop." I caught what they were talking about as I moved down the stairs.
Did I not claim in my previous post that I said private matters excluded? This is not a private matter, but a realignment. But he isn't realigning, so this is all phony and dull. Play.
Besides, would you rather I directly tell you of my feelings about my position, or would you rather hear about that when I am with my most trusted friends and joking around with them?
I didn't know whether Dae was serious or not, joking or not, he never told me. From my position, indeed, it was not joking.
> And in closing, if I have problems with anyone, those are between myself
>and that person. I know I would not appreciate a third party entering and
>telling me what I should do because they were eavesdropping on something that
>did not concern them.
Depends on the problem.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke