From: zen80s@aol.com (Zen 80s)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 17:25:20 EDT
Roland,
Point 1: How is more honorable to continue to make a mistake rather than to correct it?
Point 2: "When someone will force me to believe what they say is true, I will oppose"
Everyone keeps saying this, but they have offered no real evidence that we have done anything of that nature. So we say we'll intercede for a challenger who is tested. What's the big deal in that? Other people have done it as well. Now you konw our plans. I don't see anything in that which implies we try to FORCE anyone to our beliefs at all!
I'm getting rather annoyed at this. People have been making accusations about our house while offering little proof to back them up. All they have revealed is that we have three barons. Other than that, everything they have brought up about us has been something we said.
Where is the evidence to back the claim that "we force people to change their minds about their beliefs"? This, in slightly different words, has been said by two different people, and neither time has either one provided a shred of evidence to that detail.
It's all very ridiculous and I'm sick of the slander.
Zen
I was just struck by a thought..
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From: zachrywulf@aol.com (ZachryWulf)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 17:38:16 EDT
Roland
That is what I meant about it all being a proving ground. Should they act without backing they will be trounced. If they have not stated their case and they act, they will have no followers. They will lose. My post was more in reference to the term rabble rouser. I like the word honor right where it is though, thanks for the suggestion. Actually the word was placed in the form of a question not a statement. I guess one could view it as a
rhetorical question but it wasn't meant that way. I usually ignore the politics in here completely. I still do. I was writing about the value of the lowley rabble rouser.
Zachary Wûlfgar
§ Wolfen §
Date: 13 Sep 1998 17:38:16 EDT
Roland
That is what I meant about it all being a proving ground. Should they act without backing they will be trounced. If they have not stated their case and they act, they will have no followers. They will lose. My post was more in reference to the term rabble rouser. I like the word honor right where it is though, thanks for the suggestion. Actually the word was placed in the form of a question not a statement. I guess one could view it as a
rhetorical question but it wasn't meant that way. I usually ignore the politics in here completely. I still do. I was writing about the value of the lowley rabble rouser.
Zachary Wûlfgar
§ Wolfen §
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From: rolandsal@aol.com (Roland Sal)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 22:45:44 EDT
To those that it may concern,
As per the terms agreed to by myself and the Duke:
I apologize for the manner in which I conducted my posts under this subject, and promise to speak my beliefs accordingly. I do admit that a few of my posts were writen fanatically and will, from this moment on, speak my points calmly.
However, I still hold to what I believe to be true, and will accept full repsponsibility for my convictions and comments.
I bid you all a fond fare well.
Roland Sal Roa
Date: 13 Sep 1998 22:45:44 EDT
To those that it may concern,
As per the terms agreed to by myself and the Duke:
I apologize for the manner in which I conducted my posts under this subject, and promise to speak my beliefs accordingly. I do admit that a few of my posts were writen fanatically and will, from this moment on, speak my points calmly.
However, I still hold to what I believe to be true, and will accept full repsponsibility for my convictions and comments.
I bid you all a fond fare well.
Roland Sal Roa
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From: prlunicorn@aol.com (PrlUnicorn)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 23:02:24 EDT
>>Can we grow up yet? This is getting just outright rediculous. Competent duelers acting like 2 year olds. Grow up sometime eh?
Huma<<
You know Huma brings up a good point.. funny there's is much complaining about children participating in the rings yet most of them have better manners than many of the adults.
AS to rabblerousers there were many through earth's history. I lived through enough of it.
Date: 13 Sep 1998 23:02:24 EDT
>>Can we grow up yet? This is getting just outright rediculous. Competent duelers acting like 2 year olds. Grow up sometime eh?
Huma<<
You know Huma brings up a good point.. funny there's is much complaining about children participating in the rings yet most of them have better manners than many of the adults.
AS to rabblerousers there were many through earth's history. I lived through enough of it.
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From: dukeuziei@aol.com (Duke UzieI)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 02:23:57 EDT
I have spoken with Percival and Zen on several issues related to this thread of posts and would like to request that we discontinue defense of what I see to be meaningless conjecture.
You cannot fight slander and propaganda with truths, they do little but fuel the fires. You cannot retalite with jibes and comments to any effect. It all comes down to simple proverb.
People are stupid, and a good many of them believe what they are told and what they hear because they are told it is true and they wish to believe in something and cannot make their own way because they are stupid.
Try not to load up the rest of this thread with how insulted you might be to that last comment...its not held conviction of mine, just a basic fact of life.
So...lets not waste time with words and political manipulation...it will gain little but more stupid people arguing. Actions speak ever so much louder than words and opinion.
~Duke Adonai Uzlel
~DragonLord of RhyDin
~Warlord and Former Baron of the Seventh
Date: 14 Sep 1998 02:23:57 EDT
I have spoken with Percival and Zen on several issues related to this thread of posts and would like to request that we discontinue defense of what I see to be meaningless conjecture.
You cannot fight slander and propaganda with truths, they do little but fuel the fires. You cannot retalite with jibes and comments to any effect. It all comes down to simple proverb.
People are stupid, and a good many of them believe what they are told and what they hear because they are told it is true and they wish to believe in something and cannot make their own way because they are stupid.
Try not to load up the rest of this thread with how insulted you might be to that last comment...its not held conviction of mine, just a basic fact of life.
So...lets not waste time with words and political manipulation...it will gain little but more stupid people arguing. Actions speak ever so much louder than words and opinion.
~Duke Adonai Uzlel
~DragonLord of RhyDin
~Warlord and Former Baron of the Seventh
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From: guyysavage@aol.com (GuyySavage)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 03:19:59 EDT
Kalamere wrote << ... Obviously you have issue with the ideals of House Rising, hence every descriptive word you have used has a negative connotation, as you have already admitted. Understandable when one holds an opposite stance (though I'd thought it beholden unto members of the press to at least attempt an unbiased stance) but such words as
patriot and humanist, progressive and visionary are just as fitting. ... >>
Point of order, I would agree with you that when in the process of reporting the news, journalists should make every effort to remain unbiased, however, that doesn't mean that the journalist themselves don't have opinions or viewpoints of their own. In this particular case, Sonja is not reporting and is merely expressing a viewpoint in an open forum.
Guy Savage
Date: 14 Sep 1998 03:19:59 EDT
Kalamere wrote << ... Obviously you have issue with the ideals of House Rising, hence every descriptive word you have used has a negative connotation, as you have already admitted. Understandable when one holds an opposite stance (though I'd thought it beholden unto members of the press to at least attempt an unbiased stance) but such words as
patriot and humanist, progressive and visionary are just as fitting. ... >>
Point of order, I would agree with you that when in the process of reporting the news, journalists should make every effort to remain unbiased, however, that doesn't mean that the journalist themselves don't have opinions or viewpoints of their own. In this particular case, Sonja is not reporting and is merely expressing a viewpoint in an open forum.
Guy Savage
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 11:47:47 EDT
Mr. Savage,
You are, of course, correct. This was a poorly chosen stament by me and I wish to retract it and offer apology to Sonja. I hold to the essence of the missive itself and the main points thereof, but in regard to the portion you pointed out, you are correct.
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
Date: 14 Sep 1998 11:47:47 EDT
Mr. Savage,
You are, of course, correct. This was a poorly chosen stament by me and I wish to retract it and offer apology to Sonja. I hold to the essence of the missive itself and the main points thereof, but in regard to the portion you pointed out, you are correct.
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 12:08:26 EDT
> So...lets not waste time with words and political manipulation...
> it will gain little but more stupid people arguing. Actions speak
> ever so much louder than words and opinion.
Actions speak louder than words, but yet the pen is mightier than the sword. Cliche' gets you nowhere.
Being as this entire debate comes about because of words written by representatives of House Rising, it seems more appropriate that they be debated with writings rather than weapons. While they have been accused of plotting it, they have yet to actually raise arms so there is little action those in opposition to them might take.
Words and politics are far from useless. Without them, simple actions themselves will not bring about change. Unless you expect this public, which you have already accused of stupidity, to learn by example alone. Only when actions are accompanied by stated purposes might people know the reasons for the act and hence either agree and alter their previous thinking, or continue to disagree.
What is useless, when attempting to establish your own point of view, is to demoralize the audience by using widespread generalities of stupidity or other lackings.
~Kalamere Ar'Din
Date: 14 Sep 1998 12:08:26 EDT
> So...lets not waste time with words and political manipulation...
> it will gain little but more stupid people arguing. Actions speak
> ever so much louder than words and opinion.
Actions speak louder than words, but yet the pen is mightier than the sword. Cliche' gets you nowhere.
Being as this entire debate comes about because of words written by representatives of House Rising, it seems more appropriate that they be debated with writings rather than weapons. While they have been accused of plotting it, they have yet to actually raise arms so there is little action those in opposition to them might take.
Words and politics are far from useless. Without them, simple actions themselves will not bring about change. Unless you expect this public, which you have already accused of stupidity, to learn by example alone. Only when actions are accompanied by stated purposes might people know the reasons for the act and hence either agree and alter their previous thinking, or continue to disagree.
What is useless, when attempting to establish your own point of view, is to demoralize the audience by using widespread generalities of stupidity or other lackings.
~Kalamere Ar'Din
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From: neriskyn@aol.com (Neris Kyn)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 14:53:31 EDT
I think what Adonai was trying to say but which you took it out of context... once again... (he did warn you not to take it personaly) was that we're realy getting sick of this particular type of whining post, no matter who it may be from or the subject.... Seriously, I check this board at least once every day, and this subject seems to be spawning the same insults and rebuttles every time. You can't
say anything that hasn't been said already, so why not just drop it?
Neris
Just a duelist
Date: 14 Sep 1998 14:53:31 EDT
I think what Adonai was trying to say but which you took it out of context... once again... (he did warn you not to take it personaly) was that we're realy getting sick of this particular type of whining post, no matter who it may be from or the subject.... Seriously, I check this board at least once every day, and this subject seems to be spawning the same insults and rebuttles every time. You can't
say anything that hasn't been said already, so why not just drop it?
Neris
Just a duelist
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 18:23:32 EDT
Neris,
For the record, I took no personal offense to what Adonai had to say. My comments were spawned more by my sense of irony than by anything else.
Here we have the returned Valheru who, although continuing to claim friendship to the Overlord, has decided to side with House Rising. Beyond merely siding with them, he's encouraged them to work out a plan of systematic removal of what has been referred to as the "ultraloyalist" faction of Barons.
All this in the name of the sport and the people, as apparently Dalamar and his practices are hurting the "little people." Taking this plan further, I'm told he also plans challenge to the Overlord, again as champion of these "little people."
Yet.. despite this intention to be their champion.. he decides to write and say that the general populous is "stupid." So, as I mentioned in my last closing, I find it somewhat counter productive to insult the very people whom you believe yourself to be championing.
~Kalamere...
Date: 14 Sep 1998 18:23:32 EDT
Neris,
For the record, I took no personal offense to what Adonai had to say. My comments were spawned more by my sense of irony than by anything else.
Here we have the returned Valheru who, although continuing to claim friendship to the Overlord, has decided to side with House Rising. Beyond merely siding with them, he's encouraged them to work out a plan of systematic removal of what has been referred to as the "ultraloyalist" faction of Barons.
All this in the name of the sport and the people, as apparently Dalamar and his practices are hurting the "little people." Taking this plan further, I'm told he also plans challenge to the Overlord, again as champion of these "little people."
Yet.. despite this intention to be their champion.. he decides to write and say that the general populous is "stupid." So, as I mentioned in my last closing, I find it somewhat counter productive to insult the very people whom you believe yourself to be championing.
~Kalamere...
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From: kenman9696@aol.com (Kenman9696)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 19:52:06 EDT
Aerenth Artides
::puts the green pen down::
Now you insult my intellegence. Though I do not have the ability to challenge, that does not make me of less importance than any other HR member. It seems to me that you imply that either I am clinging to this House because I want to tack a little post script after my name, or because I am too stupid to realize (to paraphrase, sorta) "that I don't have a say".
I DID NOT run to this House for shelter, or for fame. I was invited to join, among the first actually. The reasons that I do not often pen missives on the board are simple.
1. Percival has great skill with the pen and took it upon himself to speak on behalf of House Rising. This was a mutual decision among all present House members.
2. As "just a M@A" I don't attract much attention. In fact, because I am not a WL, and I have never challenged, I am often ignored. It did not take me long to figure this out. A few, Adonai comes to mind, HAVE taken shown interest in some of what I have to say, and haven't passed it off as the rantings of "just a M@A"
3. I much prefer the spoken word to the penned. Come talk to me sometime, ye may actually take a shine to me.
Yeah...thats it
Ken
House Rising
"just a M@A"
Date: 14 Sep 1998 19:52:06 EDT
Aerenth Artides
::puts the green pen down::
Now you insult my intellegence. Though I do not have the ability to challenge, that does not make me of less importance than any other HR member. It seems to me that you imply that either I am clinging to this House because I want to tack a little post script after my name, or because I am too stupid to realize (to paraphrase, sorta) "that I don't have a say".
I DID NOT run to this House for shelter, or for fame. I was invited to join, among the first actually. The reasons that I do not often pen missives on the board are simple.
1. Percival has great skill with the pen and took it upon himself to speak on behalf of House Rising. This was a mutual decision among all present House members.
2. As "just a M@A" I don't attract much attention. In fact, because I am not a WL, and I have never challenged, I am often ignored. It did not take me long to figure this out. A few, Adonai comes to mind, HAVE taken shown interest in some of what I have to say, and haven't passed it off as the rantings of "just a M@A"
3. I much prefer the spoken word to the penned. Come talk to me sometime, ye may actually take a shine to me.
Yeah...thats it
Ken
House Rising
"just a M@A"
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:03:07 EDT
This is an announcement that may shock a lot of people. It certainly shocked the people I told of my decision. Let's see what you all think, shall we?
I have resigned my position as one of the Triumvirs of House Rising. I did this after a night full of thought, that followed a conversation last night with Adonai and Zen. Adonai's plan made sense. Too much sense. I am sure that Adonai will take my position as one of the Triumvirs. It does not concern me because as of 9:30 this morning by the Pacific Clock, I am no longer a member of House Rising or affiliated with them in any way. Magnus,
Cletus, the Lady Klyopie, and Daelin Dragonsblade have all left as well. Once more members realize Adonai's intentions, I am sure there will be more to leave the House.
I have at no time been part of or approved of any plan, plot, or conspiracy to "assume control" of the Council. I was one of the first members to join, and when the values of the house became suspect, I left.
This second announcement is to the public at large. The Rising Stars TDL team is MY property, not that of House Rising. It was formed with my money, work, and resources. Any members who wish to leave because of my change in affiliation are free to do so. Any members who wish to remain despite my change in affiliation are free to do so. The name of the team may change in the future. If it does, the announcement will be made immediately.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:03:07 EDT
This is an announcement that may shock a lot of people. It certainly shocked the people I told of my decision. Let's see what you all think, shall we?
I have resigned my position as one of the Triumvirs of House Rising. I did this after a night full of thought, that followed a conversation last night with Adonai and Zen. Adonai's plan made sense. Too much sense. I am sure that Adonai will take my position as one of the Triumvirs. It does not concern me because as of 9:30 this morning by the Pacific Clock, I am no longer a member of House Rising or affiliated with them in any way. Magnus,
Cletus, the Lady Klyopie, and Daelin Dragonsblade have all left as well. Once more members realize Adonai's intentions, I am sure there will be more to leave the House.
I have at no time been part of or approved of any plan, plot, or conspiracy to "assume control" of the Council. I was one of the first members to join, and when the values of the house became suspect, I left.
This second announcement is to the public at large. The Rising Stars TDL team is MY property, not that of House Rising. It was formed with my money, work, and resources. Any members who wish to leave because of my change in affiliation are free to do so. Any members who wish to remain despite my change in affiliation are free to do so. The name of the team may change in the future. If it does, the announcement will be made immediately.
Duc Percival Marchand de Clermont
Warlord of the Duel of Swords
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From: xgnortx@aol.com (X Gnort X)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:15:13 EDT
The Warlord tacks up a simple note.
Hey Percy,
There's room in HDT if you're interested.
*G*
He smiles and takes off, not really thinking Percy would take him up on it anyway.
Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:15:13 EDT
The Warlord tacks up a simple note.
Hey Percy,
There's room in HDT if you're interested.
*G*
He smiles and takes off, not really thinking Percy would take him up on it anyway.
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From: zen80s@aol.com (Zen 80s)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 22:15:26 EDT
::he reads Percival's post, having found a similar one delivered to him earlier. Having spent most of his original reaction on the letter, he steps back, not knowing what to think::
Date: 14 Sep 1998 22:15:26 EDT
::he reads Percival's post, having found a similar one delivered to him earlier. Having spent most of his original reaction on the letter, he steps back, not knowing what to think::
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From: valmion@aol.com (Valmion)
Date: 15 Sep 1998 01:12:51 EDT
"Also note that, unlike Questrion and Dracoern, this House has not stated an intent to do so."
Kalamere my friend, I would have to ask you when House Questrion ever made such an intent public. Our doctrine in the House was public and it never did state our desire to control the Baron's Council. Our very act of going renegade in support of Huma and taking on the onslaught of challenges defies our wanting to control the Baron's Council. If such control were our objective, then we would have been loyal puppy dogs of Dalamar, growing slowly in
number.
Damn it's good to be back ;)
Valmion
Date: 15 Sep 1998 01:12:51 EDT
"Also note that, unlike Questrion and Dracoern, this House has not stated an intent to do so."
Kalamere my friend, I would have to ask you when House Questrion ever made such an intent public. Our doctrine in the House was public and it never did state our desire to control the Baron's Council. Our very act of going renegade in support of Huma and taking on the onslaught of challenges defies our wanting to control the Baron's Council. If such control were our objective, then we would have been loyal puppy dogs of Dalamar, growing slowly in
number.
Damn it's good to be back ;)
Valmion