From: khrystawlf@aol.com (KhrystaWlf)
Date: 26 Jan 1999 20:24:10 EST
While I don't like the idea of enforcing a new ruling regarding children dueling in the arena, I do think that some points need to be addressed.
In Lainy's (Aislain, for those of you not familiar with my personal nickname for the child) letter she stated repeatedly that her father and her mother had taught her what dueling is and, perhaps more importantly, what it is not. And she is correct in what she says... or at least she should be. The community should see dueling as an art. An art of finesse and skill and honor, not a butchering brawl. Unfortunately, simply because this
is as it should be, does not mean that this is as it is. There are those duelists within the ranks that almost take pleasure in the butchery...... There are those duelists that go for the maximun harm to their opponents, possibly in the hopes that their opponents will be unable to perform at their best level in the hopes of an easier win. They do this regardless of the age, maturity, or rank of their opponents.
I have never forbidden Brianna to duel in the arena. I have, however, attempted to teach her the *art* involved in the duels, as well as the honor so necessary in the duels. As well, I have tried to teach her discretion in whether or not she duels. She has chosen to not duel officially yet, whether it be as a member of The Short Swords Dueling Team, or in the arena.
I would not claim that Rhi, or Lainy, or even young Ryan should be banned from dueling simply because of their ages, or their perceived maturity, or lack thereof, by many of the older of us. But I do ask that you to re-read Lainy's letter carefully. The portion I refer to is this: Her father..... Adonai Uziel..... deemed it fit and necessary to give his beloved child additional protection, above and beyond what the Ward provides to all
duelists. The why of that is not mentioned, but knowing Adonai's love for his daughter, I would venture to say that he did this to ensure in his own mind, and perhaps in her mind as well, that should the Ward fail, his daughter would still not be harmed. Unfortunately, not all parents are able to do such for their children. What we can, and should, do is educate them.... and to protect them from those that don't take care with their
impressionability, or their physical well-being. I recall vividly sitting with Lainy on my lap during one of her father's challenges. Adonai was challenging for the Overlordship. Baph was dueling as his champion against Jeffery Oakenshield, I believe, during this particular duel. It became a gruesome event for a then 7 year old child to witness. She hid her eyes against me, clutching her kitten, and cried numerous times when Baph became
particularly viscious in his dueling. As it was, it was necessary for me to hold her, comfort her and kiss her tears away, explaining about the Ward's healing... Telling her over and over that Jeff wasn't truly being hurt. That the pain would fade, and the wounds would heal, no matter how bad. If I could have saved her the trauma of watching her *Uncle Jeff's* duel, and the fear she showed after that duel was finished when her father stepped
into the ring, I would have.
I certainly don't claim to have all the answers for every parent.... But I can't help but remember Lainy that evening when I think of children in the arena, dueling or not.
Khrys
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 26 Jan 1999 20:36:22 EST
"Morgan has finally lowered my opinion of her through the floor, with her flat out lies. "
Jola, I think you have been hit in the head too many times to realize how bigoted your words are.
"What I am requesting a determination on, and a rule regarding, is on children actually dueling. Specifically, I would like to see no dueling permitted for anyone under the age of 14 UNLESS their opponent is within two years of their age, AND their weapons are practice weapons. "
By these words, you are forcing your prejudice on others. No one should be restricted within these rings--NO ONE. Weapons and partners are not a matter to be written into the rules, they are a matter to be decided by the child, the person who will duel the child, and the child's parent(s).
You are discriminating and attempting to exclude and/or restrict certain patrons and it is distasteful no matter how you dress up your words so it looks like you "mean well." All you "mean" is to stick your nose where it has no business being and I will be damned if I let you get away with trying to force it into a rule. It is inappropriate and distasteful. It sickens me how many people are so willing to discriminate while hiding behind false "good
intentions."
Take care of your own children and quit wasting everyone's time.
Date: 26 Jan 1999 20:36:22 EST
"Morgan has finally lowered my opinion of her through the floor, with her flat out lies. "
Jola, I think you have been hit in the head too many times to realize how bigoted your words are.
"What I am requesting a determination on, and a rule regarding, is on children actually dueling. Specifically, I would like to see no dueling permitted for anyone under the age of 14 UNLESS their opponent is within two years of their age, AND their weapons are practice weapons. "
By these words, you are forcing your prejudice on others. No one should be restricted within these rings--NO ONE. Weapons and partners are not a matter to be written into the rules, they are a matter to be decided by the child, the person who will duel the child, and the child's parent(s).
You are discriminating and attempting to exclude and/or restrict certain patrons and it is distasteful no matter how you dress up your words so it looks like you "mean well." All you "mean" is to stick your nose where it has no business being and I will be damned if I let you get away with trying to force it into a rule. It is inappropriate and distasteful. It sickens me how many people are so willing to discriminate while hiding behind false "good
intentions."
Take care of your own children and quit wasting everyone's time.
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From: rixfavre@aol.com (Rix Favre)
Date: 26 Jan 1999 20:45:15 EST
::chuckling as he writes::
I am embarrassed to have a god that can't use proper grammar or spell properly.
Maybe I should convert or something . . .
-Rix
Date: 26 Jan 1999 20:45:15 EST
::chuckling as he writes::
I am embarrassed to have a god that can't use proper grammar or spell properly.
Maybe I should convert or something . . .
-Rix
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From: jolasavage@aol.com (JolaSavage)
Date: 26 Jan 1999 21:59:28 EST
I wrote:
>"Morgan has finally lowered my opinion of her through the floor, with her
>flat out lies. "
Morgan replied:
>
>Jola, I think you have been hit in the head too many times to realize how
>bigoted your words are.
Do tell, Morgan, how is it bigoted that I said you lied? Which in fact you did, by stating that I had attempted to enforce secrecy of this matter?
Do address the issue of that, Morgan dearest. I have no idea what the rest of your post has to do with it.
~~~ Jola Savage ~~~
~~~ Warlord in the DoS ~~~
Date: 26 Jan 1999 21:59:28 EST
I wrote:
>"Morgan has finally lowered my opinion of her through the floor, with her
>flat out lies. "
Morgan replied:
>
>Jola, I think you have been hit in the head too many times to realize how
>bigoted your words are.
Do tell, Morgan, how is it bigoted that I said you lied? Which in fact you did, by stating that I had attempted to enforce secrecy of this matter?
Do address the issue of that, Morgan dearest. I have no idea what the rest of your post has to do with it.
~~~ Jola Savage ~~~
~~~ Warlord in the DoS ~~~
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From: dalamarmaj@aol.com (DalamarMaj)
Date: 26 Jan 1999 22:54:08 EST
I think it should be left up to the child. If they get chopped up and run away, fine. If they get chopped up and stay, good for them.
I also don't think it is fair to say anything about the childrens parents in the matter. They are simply giving their children the choice to duel if they want to. Remember how you all thought your parents were being unfair when they didn't let you do something you wanted to do?
Date: 26 Jan 1999 22:54:08 EST
I think it should be left up to the child. If they get chopped up and run away, fine. If they get chopped up and stay, good for them.
I also don't think it is fair to say anything about the childrens parents in the matter. They are simply giving their children the choice to duel if they want to. Remember how you all thought your parents were being unfair when they didn't let you do something you wanted to do?
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From: rhidbrock@aol.com (RhiDBrock)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 00:59:34 EST
Ladies and generalmen,
It's hard enough to be a child growing up with your mom and dad telling you what is right and wrong. It gets confusaling when other people start saying that they are the boss of you too. What if somebody says you have to have certain clothes because the ones you have aren't safe or that kids can't ride horses because they are too little? What if they tell you that you can't have kids at your house because you own a sword. Is that right? To tell
someone else how to bring up their kids? ?
I do not think so, as Lady Morgan, Mrs. Jona, Lady Drake, and others have said it is up to the parents of the child to make this decision. Let me ask all of you this that say "Kids shouldn't be allowed to duel" Do you have a child? If your answer is no then than what do you know about kids. Sitting on kids for a little bit is one thing, but doing the job all day long is another. As them old earth people used to say walk a mile in my mocassins.
I don't come to the arena alone, one of my brothers usually brings me into town and waits outside, and sometimes my Momma is there, but you can't see her. I'm never alone, my Da, Damon Brock, saw to that. I can't splain it.
I like dueling, it's fun, people like Seamus and Baphe taught me that a sport is about respect and fair play more than winning.
If you don't let kids duel, then the moms with babies in their belly can't duel either, because their baby wouldn't be allowed in the ring. Just try and tell some of the moms they can't do that. I bet even Mrs. Savage, who started this would be mad if she wanted to duel and they told her no.
I know people get hurt outside the wards, I talked to my Uncle Cray, and he said that swords and weapons aren't toys. They should be wielded with respect. He should know cause he's been in lotsa wars. He knew a man named William Wallace who believed the freedom was important. I guess kids aren't important enough to count to some people.
Choice are portant things. I think taking them away in wrong especially without asking the people that, what's that word, concerned, dat's it. The kids aren't being asked and it's about us. Our moms and dads have say over us and they should decide what is best for us.
Rhiannon Dawn Brock
((Author's note: more info on Rhi at http://members.aol.com/PrlUnicorn/RhiDBrock.html
1998 © C. A. Koch))
Date: 27 Jan 1999 00:59:34 EST
Ladies and generalmen,
It's hard enough to be a child growing up with your mom and dad telling you what is right and wrong. It gets confusaling when other people start saying that they are the boss of you too. What if somebody says you have to have certain clothes because the ones you have aren't safe or that kids can't ride horses because they are too little? What if they tell you that you can't have kids at your house because you own a sword. Is that right? To tell
someone else how to bring up their kids? ?
I do not think so, as Lady Morgan, Mrs. Jona, Lady Drake, and others have said it is up to the parents of the child to make this decision. Let me ask all of you this that say "Kids shouldn't be allowed to duel" Do you have a child? If your answer is no then than what do you know about kids. Sitting on kids for a little bit is one thing, but doing the job all day long is another. As them old earth people used to say walk a mile in my mocassins.
I don't come to the arena alone, one of my brothers usually brings me into town and waits outside, and sometimes my Momma is there, but you can't see her. I'm never alone, my Da, Damon Brock, saw to that. I can't splain it.
I like dueling, it's fun, people like Seamus and Baphe taught me that a sport is about respect and fair play more than winning.
If you don't let kids duel, then the moms with babies in their belly can't duel either, because their baby wouldn't be allowed in the ring. Just try and tell some of the moms they can't do that. I bet even Mrs. Savage, who started this would be mad if she wanted to duel and they told her no.
I know people get hurt outside the wards, I talked to my Uncle Cray, and he said that swords and weapons aren't toys. They should be wielded with respect. He should know cause he's been in lotsa wars. He knew a man named William Wallace who believed the freedom was important. I guess kids aren't important enough to count to some people.
Choice are portant things. I think taking them away in wrong especially without asking the people that, what's that word, concerned, dat's it. The kids aren't being asked and it's about us. Our moms and dads have say over us and they should decide what is best for us.
Rhiannon Dawn Brock
((Author's note: more info on Rhi at http://members.aol.com/PrlUnicorn/RhiDBrock.html
1998 © C. A. Koch))
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 01:17:21 EST
"Do tell, Morgan, how is it bigoted that I said you lied? Which in fact you did, by stating that I had attempted to enforce secrecy of this matter?"
It was merely first stating my opinion (that you are a bigot) and then following the statement of my opinion with the reason why I have that opinion (an excerpt from your proposal rife with prejudice disguised as concern). If you cannot take the time to comprehend something quite plainly presented straight forward and to the point, there is nothing more that can be said. I fail to see how someone who claims to be better than a child and therefore
allegedly intellectually capable of knowing what is good for a child could misunderstand so easily.
Date: 27 Jan 1999 01:17:21 EST
"Do tell, Morgan, how is it bigoted that I said you lied? Which in fact you did, by stating that I had attempted to enforce secrecy of this matter?"
It was merely first stating my opinion (that you are a bigot) and then following the statement of my opinion with the reason why I have that opinion (an excerpt from your proposal rife with prejudice disguised as concern). If you cannot take the time to comprehend something quite plainly presented straight forward and to the point, there is nothing more that can be said. I fail to see how someone who claims to be better than a child and therefore
allegedly intellectually capable of knowing what is good for a child could misunderstand so easily.
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From: ajaybird2@aol.com (AJaybird2)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 01:23:43 EST
::pens the missive::
To all that care 'bout the issue,
Granted, Sher and I are unfortunately without child, but, even so, I feel that I can share m' thoughts on the matter 'bout the suggestion to restrict a certain group from dueling within the rings. I do this publicly, for I feel it is not m' place to do so privately w' the Council of Barons.
M' opinion is that this in not an issue for the council to decide but first and foremost, the parents o' the children must decide. If m' lovely wife and I were to ever be blessed w' the responsibilty of raising a child, I would humbly listen to others and their opinions on matters, regardless o' the subject, then with m' wife *WE* would make *OUR* decision for the child that which would be best. I do not support the suggestion of a
regulation in regards to this matter.
Lastly, it is within m' right to duel or not duel someone, just as it is m' right to 'ave who I might o'er to our farmhouse for supper. I suggest that we each individually govern ourselves, and as far as dueling children, I shall not do so, unless, it be in a teaching atmosphere which would need the prior approval from the parents/gaurdians. I suggest that if you think it inappropriate to duel someone, then don't. If however, you find
nothing wrong with doing something, then do so.
Humbly,
AJay Bird
Defender o' the Second
Renegade Baron
Date: 27 Jan 1999 01:23:43 EST
::pens the missive::
To all that care 'bout the issue,
Granted, Sher and I are unfortunately without child, but, even so, I feel that I can share m' thoughts on the matter 'bout the suggestion to restrict a certain group from dueling within the rings. I do this publicly, for I feel it is not m' place to do so privately w' the Council of Barons.
M' opinion is that this in not an issue for the council to decide but first and foremost, the parents o' the children must decide. If m' lovely wife and I were to ever be blessed w' the responsibilty of raising a child, I would humbly listen to others and their opinions on matters, regardless o' the subject, then with m' wife *WE* would make *OUR* decision for the child that which would be best. I do not support the suggestion of a
regulation in regards to this matter.
Lastly, it is within m' right to duel or not duel someone, just as it is m' right to 'ave who I might o'er to our farmhouse for supper. I suggest that we each individually govern ourselves, and as far as dueling children, I shall not do so, unless, it be in a teaching atmosphere which would need the prior approval from the parents/gaurdians. I suggest that if you think it inappropriate to duel someone, then don't. If however, you find
nothing wrong with doing something, then do so.
Humbly,
AJay Bird
Defender o' the Second
Renegade Baron
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From: jonalyn@aol.com (Jonalyn)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 01:50:53 EST
Madame Savage
Whilst I can appreciate thine comments with regard to thine own parents' treatment of thee, perhaps a stint at the Rhydin Medical Center under the care of a good psychiatrist, healer, or top notch psionists may help thee recover from thine experience. Tis thee certes hae heard the ancient proverb with respect to exactly where good intentions may lead one.
In perusing thine own statement, thee admit to an attempt at secrecy in stating the fact that thee sent thine first letter to Master Golden Evermeadow and the Baron's Council. Tis hardly what I would call apprising the community publicly of a matter that affects not only those currently extant in the community but those who may find their way unto these ancient halls and rings in future.
It is a blatant attempt to impose thine discriminatory, exclusionary, narrow minded, bigoted and warped view upon the community at large. I spent manna a long year in a land where I fought and found professionals to fight against such a warped viewpoint. Thee aire most certes entitled to thine opinion, yet when thee attempt to impose that opinion upon this community, and do so in a secretive manner, and then make an attempt to deny it, I do
ponder the state of thine emotional and mental well being. Children aire precious, certes, they should hae all the love, nurturing and care they can be given. Thee aire nae the only one that hae suffered a less than nurturing childhood, Madame.
What I ponder is this. Wherefore didst suddenly decide, and it is sudden, upon this proposal? If thee aire attempting to condone this with the information about thine less than nurturing childhood, wherefore dinna thee make this proposal years ago, or upon thine more recent return unto the realms?
Perhaps tis as Morgan commented, thee hae taken one too many hits of something. Tis thee aire the kind of adult I loath. What know thee of Rhydin or its children, Madame? Hae thee anna idea the vastness of the planet, the diversity of its populace? Well, I do Madame, nae only of this planet, but of the vastness that ist the multiverse. I am reminded of the Mad Major SSark ast I peruse thine statements, Madame. He lost his family to the attack
of dragons. Aye, he wast an adult when it didst happen, yet from that day forth his blind hatred for all that wasna human obsessed him, drove him to eventually commit such atrocities that wouldst boggle the mind. Tis such a hatred that I seem to sense growing in thee, Madame, for I recall thee of long ago. It permeates the verra depths of thine being. Tis sad, Madame, for once thee were someone who once took joy in living, now tis seeming thee
simply await thine death, Madame, and seek to lash out blindly, seeking only those who thee believe shall cater to thine peccadillos and whims and throwing temper tantrums and threats around when thee dinna get thine way.
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare
Date: 27 Jan 1999 01:50:53 EST
Madame Savage
Whilst I can appreciate thine comments with regard to thine own parents' treatment of thee, perhaps a stint at the Rhydin Medical Center under the care of a good psychiatrist, healer, or top notch psionists may help thee recover from thine experience. Tis thee certes hae heard the ancient proverb with respect to exactly where good intentions may lead one.
In perusing thine own statement, thee admit to an attempt at secrecy in stating the fact that thee sent thine first letter to Master Golden Evermeadow and the Baron's Council. Tis hardly what I would call apprising the community publicly of a matter that affects not only those currently extant in the community but those who may find their way unto these ancient halls and rings in future.
It is a blatant attempt to impose thine discriminatory, exclusionary, narrow minded, bigoted and warped view upon the community at large. I spent manna a long year in a land where I fought and found professionals to fight against such a warped viewpoint. Thee aire most certes entitled to thine opinion, yet when thee attempt to impose that opinion upon this community, and do so in a secretive manner, and then make an attempt to deny it, I do
ponder the state of thine emotional and mental well being. Children aire precious, certes, they should hae all the love, nurturing and care they can be given. Thee aire nae the only one that hae suffered a less than nurturing childhood, Madame.
What I ponder is this. Wherefore didst suddenly decide, and it is sudden, upon this proposal? If thee aire attempting to condone this with the information about thine less than nurturing childhood, wherefore dinna thee make this proposal years ago, or upon thine more recent return unto the realms?
Perhaps tis as Morgan commented, thee hae taken one too many hits of something. Tis thee aire the kind of adult I loath. What know thee of Rhydin or its children, Madame? Hae thee anna idea the vastness of the planet, the diversity of its populace? Well, I do Madame, nae only of this planet, but of the vastness that ist the multiverse. I am reminded of the Mad Major SSark ast I peruse thine statements, Madame. He lost his family to the attack
of dragons. Aye, he wast an adult when it didst happen, yet from that day forth his blind hatred for all that wasna human obsessed him, drove him to eventually commit such atrocities that wouldst boggle the mind. Tis such a hatred that I seem to sense growing in thee, Madame, for I recall thee of long ago. It permeates the verra depths of thine being. Tis sad, Madame, for once thee were someone who once took joy in living, now tis seeming thee
simply await thine death, Madame, and seek to lash out blindly, seeking only those who thee believe shall cater to thine peccadillos and whims and throwing temper tantrums and threats around when thee dinna get thine way.
Jonalyn Nenshen Starfare
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From: jolasavage@aol.com (JolaSavage)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 09:06:06 EST
Jonalyn drones,
>What I ponder is this. Wherefore didst suddenly decide, and it is sudden,
>upon this proposal? If thee aire attempting to condone this with the
>information about thine less than nurturing childhood, wherefore dinna thee
>make this proposal years ago, or upon thine more recent return unto the
>realms?
Sudden, eh? Perhaps it is just that I do not consider you a friend, and therefore have not been discussing the matter with you for as many years as I have with those I do consider friends. Indeed, I have stated to them that, one day, when I felt the time was right, I would make it an issue. In fact, if you desired to look back in the archives of this board, I have stated such in public, on the boards, for all to read, in more than one occasion. Shall
repost those here for you, who has such a selective memory?
In the future, should you decide to actually discuss the issue rather than harass and slander and continue to call names and behave childishly, I may listen to you again. Until then, you do not exist to me.
~~~ Jola Savage ~~~
~~~ Warlord in the DoS ~~~
Date: 27 Jan 1999 09:06:06 EST
Jonalyn drones,
>What I ponder is this. Wherefore didst suddenly decide, and it is sudden,
>upon this proposal? If thee aire attempting to condone this with the
>information about thine less than nurturing childhood, wherefore dinna thee
>make this proposal years ago, or upon thine more recent return unto the
>realms?
Sudden, eh? Perhaps it is just that I do not consider you a friend, and therefore have not been discussing the matter with you for as many years as I have with those I do consider friends. Indeed, I have stated to them that, one day, when I felt the time was right, I would make it an issue. In fact, if you desired to look back in the archives of this board, I have stated such in public, on the boards, for all to read, in more than one occasion. Shall
repost those here for you, who has such a selective memory?
In the future, should you decide to actually discuss the issue rather than harass and slander and continue to call names and behave childishly, I may listen to you again. Until then, you do not exist to me.
~~~ Jola Savage ~~~
~~~ Warlord in the DoS ~~~
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From: jolasavage@aol.com (JolaSavage)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 09:08:50 EST
::chuckling at Morgan's note::
Oh, Morgan, please. What you first did was quote the statement where I said you lied. Then you proceeded to call me a bigot. I understand your words perfectly in the post, but that's not what I was referring to.
Perhaps next time you should find a portion to quote that actually has something to do with what you're spewing about. Or, conversely, you could actually address the point of the quote.
~~~ Jola Savage ~~~
~~~ Warlord in the DoS ~~~
Date: 27 Jan 1999 09:08:50 EST
::chuckling at Morgan's note::
Oh, Morgan, please. What you first did was quote the statement where I said you lied. Then you proceeded to call me a bigot. I understand your words perfectly in the post, but that's not what I was referring to.
Perhaps next time you should find a portion to quote that actually has something to do with what you're spewing about. Or, conversely, you could actually address the point of the quote.
~~~ Jola Savage ~~~
~~~ Warlord in the DoS ~~~
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From: xxlucianxx@aol.com (XxLucianxX)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 09:45:58 EST
While I'll not offer my opinions as to the right and wrong of this issue, I will offer my opinions on its practicality. Much of what I will say has been stated in one for or another previously, but at any rate...
Morgan has summed it up the best, I believe. Who is to decide when a "Non-human" child is mature enough to duel? Shall we call a Draconian council every time a dragon pup wants to step into the ring? Will we summon up Elves to decide if their thirty year old kin is ready to do combat with a 16 year old human? I also doubt the.. less morally concerned races would bother or even care with such an issue as their children dueling, and who would
we be to say that OUR values are better than theirs? As to
2) Children who wish to duel must duel with an opponent who is within two years, older or younger, than their age. Is that two human years? I would think you may reconsider this when you see a two year old Draconian eating a four year old Elven babe with his "practice teeth."
And also, who is to say that an arbitrary two year limit on younger duelists is any help at all? Let me assure you that when I was about the age of 11 there was a QUITE large fellow of the age of 13 who could have and would have done just as much damage to a child as any adult.
Finally, in regards to 1) No adult would be allowed to duel anyone under the age of 14. To do so would result in that match being disallowed for the standings. To do so repeatedly would result in being banned from the duel of swords.
Quite a wonderful proposal. You can't duel a child. But, in case you do, it doesn't count. Yes you still get to beat and possibly maim or kill a child, but you won't get a win for it. Definitely discourages those abusive people, I'm sure. And, by the way, will the duel of swords now require the birth certificates of all patrons who intend to participate? Will Al and Hubie be carding patrons at
the door?
In summary, a nice, feel good idea that maybe *is* the right thing to do.. who know.. but maybe not. As far as reality, the proposal is severely lacking.
Date: 27 Jan 1999 09:45:58 EST
While I'll not offer my opinions as to the right and wrong of this issue, I will offer my opinions on its practicality. Much of what I will say has been stated in one for or another previously, but at any rate...
Morgan has summed it up the best, I believe. Who is to decide when a "Non-human" child is mature enough to duel? Shall we call a Draconian council every time a dragon pup wants to step into the ring? Will we summon up Elves to decide if their thirty year old kin is ready to do combat with a 16 year old human? I also doubt the.. less morally concerned races would bother or even care with such an issue as their children dueling, and who would
we be to say that OUR values are better than theirs? As to
2) Children who wish to duel must duel with an opponent who is within two years, older or younger, than their age. Is that two human years? I would think you may reconsider this when you see a two year old Draconian eating a four year old Elven babe with his "practice teeth."
And also, who is to say that an arbitrary two year limit on younger duelists is any help at all? Let me assure you that when I was about the age of 11 there was a QUITE large fellow of the age of 13 who could have and would have done just as much damage to a child as any adult.
Finally, in regards to 1) No adult would be allowed to duel anyone under the age of 14. To do so would result in that match being disallowed for the standings. To do so repeatedly would result in being banned from the duel of swords.
Quite a wonderful proposal. You can't duel a child. But, in case you do, it doesn't count. Yes you still get to beat and possibly maim or kill a child, but you won't get a win for it. Definitely discourages those abusive people, I'm sure. And, by the way, will the duel of swords now require the birth certificates of all patrons who intend to participate? Will Al and Hubie be carding patrons at
the door?
In summary, a nice, feel good idea that maybe *is* the right thing to do.. who know.. but maybe not. As far as reality, the proposal is severely lacking.
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From: rolandsal@aol.com (Roland Sal)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 10:31:48 EST
"Perhaps it is just that I do not consider you a friend, and therefore have not been discussing the matter with you for as many years as I have with those I do consider friends."
Well, this statement doesn't say too much about your opinion of the rest of either. I have never heard you publicly speak out against children, and if you had, I guess you weren't speaking loud enough because I rarely miss much.
My prediction/opinion on this: This is a dying cause, unless you stop insulting everyone in your arguements you will NEVER win them over enough to take any new rules sitting down.
I for one won't back it and won't allow my family to be restricted by who can or can not duel. My cursed Uncle would have a hard time finding a duel with these rules, since he is up on his 400th year of life and still appears to be a spry 12 year old elfling.
Ajay, Lucian, you have the right idea. Something I've tried to convince everyone of since this whole thing began. It is up to the parents and future parents of the DoS to decide.
Here is something to ponder, as some have put it. If we are so scared that someone in the arena would blatently harm a child or fragile being... what is the more problem, the children dueling, or this bloodthirty savages with no honor or morales? If anything, you should be voting to limit their rights in the ring, not the children's.
Roland
Date: 27 Jan 1999 10:31:48 EST
"Perhaps it is just that I do not consider you a friend, and therefore have not been discussing the matter with you for as many years as I have with those I do consider friends."
Well, this statement doesn't say too much about your opinion of the rest of either. I have never heard you publicly speak out against children, and if you had, I guess you weren't speaking loud enough because I rarely miss much.
My prediction/opinion on this: This is a dying cause, unless you stop insulting everyone in your arguements you will NEVER win them over enough to take any new rules sitting down.
I for one won't back it and won't allow my family to be restricted by who can or can not duel. My cursed Uncle would have a hard time finding a duel with these rules, since he is up on his 400th year of life and still appears to be a spry 12 year old elfling.
Ajay, Lucian, you have the right idea. Something I've tried to convince everyone of since this whole thing began. It is up to the parents and future parents of the DoS to decide.
Here is something to ponder, as some have put it. If we are so scared that someone in the arena would blatently harm a child or fragile being... what is the more problem, the children dueling, or this bloodthirty savages with no honor or morales? If anything, you should be voting to limit their rights in the ring, not the children's.
Roland
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From: morganfay@aol.com (MorganFay)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 11:06:15 EST
I see you need extra help understanding basic concepts, Jola. I quoted you calling me a liar, as a frame of reference, then proceeded to make the statement that you are calling me a liar for, then gave my supporting documentation which was a quote of yours that refutes your original claim that I quoted. You called me a liar, I provided proof for my claims that you are a bigot, read it a few more times so you can get
it. This is not the classroom where your teacher will hold your hand until you get it. The rest of the class has moved on.
I know you are having a difficult time facing up to the fact that you are a prejudiced person, but do try to deal with it rather than attempting to lecture me about how to write an argument when it is obvious you do not know anything about formal academia and argumentative debate. Read a book next time before opening your mouth to try and take me on in that area.
"Perhaps next time you should find a portion to quote that actually has something to do with what you're spewing about. Or, conversely, you could actually address the point of the quote. "
Do you have problems putting two and two together? You want to restrict and/or exclude certain members of the community based on something out of their control. No matter what the issue is you are discriminating against, be it age, color of skin, gender, race, it all boils down to the same thing and is precisely what constitutes prejudicial discrimination. Those that discriminate with prejudice are bigots. How do you sleep at night?
When you stop trying to run other people's lives and keep your dysfunctional attitudes in your own dysfunctional circle, then maybe no one will have to know that you are a bigot, but until then, that is what you are and you seem quite proud to parade that about so you will just have to live with the fallout as a result. That is not my problem you cannot accept you are a bigot, that is your problem, so put your chin up and take it like the tough
harley girl you want people to think you are.
Breathe a sigh of relief, Jola, I am through with this discussion with you. It is true that it is hard enough to have a battle of wits with the unarmed, though you gave it a shot with your armor of spite, hate, and bigotry. Sadly, it only made you weaker and it is unfortunate you refuse to open your eyes to see it in yourself.
Date: 27 Jan 1999 11:06:15 EST
I see you need extra help understanding basic concepts, Jola. I quoted you calling me a liar, as a frame of reference, then proceeded to make the statement that you are calling me a liar for, then gave my supporting documentation which was a quote of yours that refutes your original claim that I quoted. You called me a liar, I provided proof for my claims that you are a bigot, read it a few more times so you can get
it. This is not the classroom where your teacher will hold your hand until you get it. The rest of the class has moved on.
I know you are having a difficult time facing up to the fact that you are a prejudiced person, but do try to deal with it rather than attempting to lecture me about how to write an argument when it is obvious you do not know anything about formal academia and argumentative debate. Read a book next time before opening your mouth to try and take me on in that area.
"Perhaps next time you should find a portion to quote that actually has something to do with what you're spewing about. Or, conversely, you could actually address the point of the quote. "
Do you have problems putting two and two together? You want to restrict and/or exclude certain members of the community based on something out of their control. No matter what the issue is you are discriminating against, be it age, color of skin, gender, race, it all boils down to the same thing and is precisely what constitutes prejudicial discrimination. Those that discriminate with prejudice are bigots. How do you sleep at night?
When you stop trying to run other people's lives and keep your dysfunctional attitudes in your own dysfunctional circle, then maybe no one will have to know that you are a bigot, but until then, that is what you are and you seem quite proud to parade that about so you will just have to live with the fallout as a result. That is not my problem you cannot accept you are a bigot, that is your problem, so put your chin up and take it like the tough
harley girl you want people to think you are.
Breathe a sigh of relief, Jola, I am through with this discussion with you. It is true that it is hard enough to have a battle of wits with the unarmed, though you gave it a shot with your armor of spite, hate, and bigotry. Sadly, it only made you weaker and it is unfortunate you refuse to open your eyes to see it in yourself.
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From: kalamere@aol.com (Kalamere)
Date: 27 Jan 1999 11:45:44 EST
Rather than tossing insults, why not make an attempt at compromise?
I can think of any number of reasons that a child should not be allowed to duel, but I can also come up with reasons why they should. What I find most important is my belief that the staff should not be held responsible for the care of another's child.
Jola, if a child's parent is present, why not allow that parent to determine when/if it is appropriate for the child to duel.. regardless of the age of the opponent. Having the parent present and making that choice would be far better than making an unwavering black letter law on the matter.
Morgan, would you find that to be unreasonable? You seem to be in agreement that the matter is best left to the parents and children, rather than the staff. With no parent present there is no way to assure the child hasn't snuck out of the house with a "borrowed" sword to find glory in the rings, however.
There is a line to be drawn here, between protecting the young and discriminating against them. As a rule in many societies, human children are considered incompetent until they reach the age of majority (generally between 16 and 18). These societies recognize that the child cannot fully reason for themselves and therefore refrain from holding them fully accountable for there crimes and contracts. I don't not believe it is the act of a bigot to
recognize an issue that many societies consider fact.. nor to attempt to guide this community in the same direction. Because of the many diverse cultures that exist in RhyDin, however, I believe it unwise.
Choosing to simply require adult supervision in the form of a parent of guardian would be a reasonable compromise here and I hope you will give it some consideration.
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
endnote: I've purposefully left out the topic of race. As many humans as make up this discussion group it would likely be best to stick with that standard. As to other races, such as Elves and Dragons, adults of those groups are easily found and an inquiry as to the corresponding age made.
Date: 27 Jan 1999 11:45:44 EST
Rather than tossing insults, why not make an attempt at compromise?
I can think of any number of reasons that a child should not be allowed to duel, but I can also come up with reasons why they should. What I find most important is my belief that the staff should not be held responsible for the care of another's child.
Jola, if a child's parent is present, why not allow that parent to determine when/if it is appropriate for the child to duel.. regardless of the age of the opponent. Having the parent present and making that choice would be far better than making an unwavering black letter law on the matter.
Morgan, would you find that to be unreasonable? You seem to be in agreement that the matter is best left to the parents and children, rather than the staff. With no parent present there is no way to assure the child hasn't snuck out of the house with a "borrowed" sword to find glory in the rings, however.
There is a line to be drawn here, between protecting the young and discriminating against them. As a rule in many societies, human children are considered incompetent until they reach the age of majority (generally between 16 and 18). These societies recognize that the child cannot fully reason for themselves and therefore refrain from holding them fully accountable for there crimes and contracts. I don't not believe it is the act of a bigot to
recognize an issue that many societies consider fact.. nor to attempt to guide this community in the same direction. Because of the many diverse cultures that exist in RhyDin, however, I believe it unwise.
Choosing to simply require adult supervision in the form of a parent of guardian would be a reasonable compromise here and I hope you will give it some consideration.
~Kalamere Ar'Din...
endnote: I've purposefully left out the topic of race. As many humans as make up this discussion group it would likely be best to stick with that standard. As to other races, such as Elves and Dragons, adults of those groups are easily found and an inquiry as to the corresponding age made.