From: cyggnimoi@aol.com (Cyg Gnimoi)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 17:05:13 EDT
As the quite pale and drawn looking angel reads the days messages, she pays close attention to the one written by the Baroness Simini. Too tired and weak to even attempt to leave a simple note, she speaks in a quiet tone,
"this lady would make a fine Overlord."
A wistful gaze remains as she stands there lost in thought.
Letter to the Council regarding the Second
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 17:12:53 EDT
::grins slightly at Jesse, shaking his head with chuckles:: Mmmmhmmmmm... Sarcastic drips like that of rain. Those cigarettes'll kill ya, ya know? ::winks::
Date: 10 Aug 1999 17:12:53 EDT
::grins slightly at Jesse, shaking his head with chuckles:: Mmmmhmmmmm... Sarcastic drips like that of rain. Those cigarettes'll kill ya, ya know? ::winks::
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 17:19:47 EDT
I never said he didn't care, Rix. You are putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that if he doesn't have enough time to make a challenge match that he even set for himself, he doesn't sound like he has enough time to be 'active' in the community. Really though, I like the guy as a person, but I don't like his stance.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
Date: 10 Aug 1999 17:19:47 EDT
I never said he didn't care, Rix. You are putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that if he doesn't have enough time to make a challenge match that he even set for himself, he doesn't sound like he has enough time to be 'active' in the community. Really though, I like the guy as a person, but I don't like his stance.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
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From: quickvarmg@aol.com (QuickVarMG)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 18:13:45 EDT
Well, Sid, when Dalamar failed to show, I suggested a rematch. Yet you think that a rematch is not so much of a penalty as the censure? It was what my initial thought about this issue was, as well. However, Daelin mentioned something that is important: The concerned parties were not included during the discussion.
Thus, I am proposing that Lucian and Del both state their position before the council. Lucian, I suggest, should state why he was absent, and/or what he feels would be a proper penalty. Del, I suggest, should state what he would like to happen; whether he wants a forfeit or a rematch, or if he wants his peer wins back.
These should be taken into consideration. It will be up to the council what is reasonable and what is not. Right now, I am considering the rematch. Once I hear more from Lucian and Del, that opinion might change.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Phantom Scots Captain
Baron of the Tenth
Sorcerer of DoM
Date: 10 Aug 1999 18:13:45 EDT
Well, Sid, when Dalamar failed to show, I suggested a rematch. Yet you think that a rematch is not so much of a penalty as the censure? It was what my initial thought about this issue was, as well. However, Daelin mentioned something that is important: The concerned parties were not included during the discussion.
Thus, I am proposing that Lucian and Del both state their position before the council. Lucian, I suggest, should state why he was absent, and/or what he feels would be a proper penalty. Del, I suggest, should state what he would like to happen; whether he wants a forfeit or a rematch, or if he wants his peer wins back.
These should be taken into consideration. It will be up to the council what is reasonable and what is not. Right now, I am considering the rematch. Once I hear more from Lucian and Del, that opinion might change.
Var Medici-Giovanni
Proud Father, Proud Husband
Phantom Scots Captain
Baron of the Tenth
Sorcerer of DoM
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From: gimmzak@aol.com (Gimmzak)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 18:43:57 EDT
Let me say a few things here.
First off, I made a public appology on when I missed my match with Dae. Things beyond my control kept me from entering the rings that night, any that want an explination of that may contact me Privately.
Second...
Why is it every blessed time something goes wrong around here, one person has to be drug through the mud. I can't say that I am friends with Lucian for I don't know him that well, I know of him though. As far as I am concerned, It wouldn't matter to me if it was my mother that skipped a match like this, first thing we need to do is hear from him.(that being Lucian) Then we need to be as fair as possible, forgetting he is our friend, or a really swell
guy, or a complete dolt (not saying Lucian is a dolt, just speaking in general here).
There have been situations like this in the past and each has been handled differently. We need to put all personal feleings aside and deside what is best for DoS, not what is best for one single person.
Gim
Date: 10 Aug 1999 18:43:57 EDT
Let me say a few things here.
First off, I made a public appology on when I missed my match with Dae. Things beyond my control kept me from entering the rings that night, any that want an explination of that may contact me Privately.
Second...
Why is it every blessed time something goes wrong around here, one person has to be drug through the mud. I can't say that I am friends with Lucian for I don't know him that well, I know of him though. As far as I am concerned, It wouldn't matter to me if it was my mother that skipped a match like this, first thing we need to do is hear from him.(that being Lucian) Then we need to be as fair as possible, forgetting he is our friend, or a really swell
guy, or a complete dolt (not saying Lucian is a dolt, just speaking in general here).
There have been situations like this in the past and each has been handled differently. We need to put all personal feleings aside and deside what is best for DoS, not what is best for one single person.
Gim
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 18:44:35 EDT
I fail to see how a "fair" Council would pass judgement without all of the facts at hand. That is not to say there will never be consequences for missing a Challenge match... there should always be *some* consequence... but to swing an axe at someone without knowing the reasons for their actions is wholly *un*fair.
It would be equally unfair ta punish every single absent baron before Lucian, but not Lucian.
We haven't heard anything from Lucian yet regarding his whereabouts on the Ninth, and
until we do I think it would be irresponsible to pass final judgement
Unfortunately, Simini, dis is da first time you have sat on da council while such an occurance (absence in a baron) came about. In all previous cases da council did not wait fer an explanation from da baron.
What is the current obsession with "precedence"? Within the issue of missing a Challenge, every case is unique, and what has gone before should provide nothing more than a guideline to the current case.
Perhaps yer words ring truth, but each and every case prior ta our current one has been dealt with in da same manor, based on precedence. Often da council rarely even met in da absense of a baron or challenger, dire consequences were automatically enforced. If da council did meet it was short and unanimous in punishing da baron or warlord (whichever was da offender).
The Rules state that a Council, if convened, has many options before them for consideration in each case. To make any action taken against a person that misses a Challenge an automatic response would essentially dissolve the stated purpose of the Baron's Council.
Simini, da council's "purpose" is ta rule when da situation is unclear. Many a challenge have been ruled in forfeit by Goldendust or Drakewyn without aid from da council. Yer statement assumes our current situation is much different from all previous forfeited challenges, and needs a much different solution. Personally, I don't believe we have such a situation.
~J
Date: 10 Aug 1999 18:44:35 EDT
I fail to see how a "fair" Council would pass judgement without all of the facts at hand. That is not to say there will never be consequences for missing a Challenge match... there should always be *some* consequence... but to swing an axe at someone without knowing the reasons for their actions is wholly *un*fair.
It would be equally unfair ta punish every single absent baron before Lucian, but not Lucian.
We haven't heard anything from Lucian yet regarding his whereabouts on the Ninth, and
until we do I think it would be irresponsible to pass final judgement
Unfortunately, Simini, dis is da first time you have sat on da council while such an occurance (absence in a baron) came about. In all previous cases da council did not wait fer an explanation from da baron.
What is the current obsession with "precedence"? Within the issue of missing a Challenge, every case is unique, and what has gone before should provide nothing more than a guideline to the current case.
Perhaps yer words ring truth, but each and every case prior ta our current one has been dealt with in da same manor, based on precedence. Often da council rarely even met in da absense of a baron or challenger, dire consequences were automatically enforced. If da council did meet it was short and unanimous in punishing da baron or warlord (whichever was da offender).
The Rules state that a Council, if convened, has many options before them for consideration in each case. To make any action taken against a person that misses a Challenge an automatic response would essentially dissolve the stated purpose of the Baron's Council.
Simini, da council's "purpose" is ta rule when da situation is unclear. Many a challenge have been ruled in forfeit by Goldendust or Drakewyn without aid from da council. Yer statement assumes our current situation is much different from all previous forfeited challenges, and needs a much different solution. Personally, I don't believe we have such a situation.
~J
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From: waikrboh@aol.com (WaIkrBoh)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 19:08:09 EDT
>Should Lucian be given a second chance, I would like to ask that Dalamar's
>official censorship be removed from the histories, as there is *no*
>difference in the situations.
>
While correct on the surface, this reasoning has one flaw: Dalamar didn't need to actually defend his title. Should Lucian be given said "second chance", he would have to. The censure and fine are there in lieu of the rematch.
It was bad enough sitting on the council that made the decision that to me still seems like lunacy. To question even the miniscule penalty that was eventually levied seems outrageous to me.
-Walker Boh
Date: 10 Aug 1999 19:08:09 EDT
>Should Lucian be given a second chance, I would like to ask that Dalamar's
>official censorship be removed from the histories, as there is *no*
>difference in the situations.
>
While correct on the surface, this reasoning has one flaw: Dalamar didn't need to actually defend his title. Should Lucian be given said "second chance", he would have to. The censure and fine are there in lieu of the rematch.
It was bad enough sitting on the council that made the decision that to me still seems like lunacy. To question even the miniscule penalty that was eventually levied seems outrageous to me.
-Walker Boh
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From: deluthan@aol.com (Deluthan)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:21:01 EDT
Tacking the photocopy to the board, he can't help but grimace to himself, never being a fan of reading, nor writing, such formal poppycock.
-----
Esteemed duelers,
As requested by Baron Medici-Giovanni, I will try to give a solid synopsis regarding my feelings on the matter.
Approximately two to three days ago, I was alerted of the Baron's choice for the time and date, and caller. With this, I prepared myself as best I could for the duel to take place at that given time -- this being physically, mentally, and emotionally. I chose to wait for the Baron a whole hour after the appointed time because I wanted to take care of the challenge that night, with fear that a rescheduling would take place and I would have to put
up with my anxiety one more night, an anxiety that has left my abdomen rather sore this very day. I'm quite sure there is a good reason for Lucian's absence -- from what I've heard he is a well respected and long-standing member of the community -- however, there are quick messenger services in this town, and I can't understand how a short note could be so difficult, unless something terribly harsh has happened. In this case, it is my opinion that
the baron should give up his ring, being unable to fulfill his resposibilities of wearing it, and I be returned my peer wins. Otherwise, I can't help but feel I've been jerked around, and therefore feel that a punishment would be in order -- I would rather have lost in the duel itself than be handed such disrespect as being, for lack of a better term, stood up.
Also, after sleeping on it, I feel I was too hasty to speak last night, and for that I apologize. But if the decision is made that Baron Lucian be stripped of his ring as punishment, I would press my challenge and request that I be tested for the right to bear it.
One final comment, although I do not intend to push the vote one way or the other in giving it. If Lucian's failure to appear is just shrugged off and the challenge rescheduled, unlike the many that have occured in the past, I, being a relative newcomer to the duels, can only wonder how other folks new to the arena will see themselves in the eyes of the veterans.
That is all, and I appreciate your time and commitment.
Deluthan Ev'rt
-----
Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:21:01 EDT
Tacking the photocopy to the board, he can't help but grimace to himself, never being a fan of reading, nor writing, such formal poppycock.
-----
Esteemed duelers,
As requested by Baron Medici-Giovanni, I will try to give a solid synopsis regarding my feelings on the matter.
Approximately two to three days ago, I was alerted of the Baron's choice for the time and date, and caller. With this, I prepared myself as best I could for the duel to take place at that given time -- this being physically, mentally, and emotionally. I chose to wait for the Baron a whole hour after the appointed time because I wanted to take care of the challenge that night, with fear that a rescheduling would take place and I would have to put
up with my anxiety one more night, an anxiety that has left my abdomen rather sore this very day. I'm quite sure there is a good reason for Lucian's absence -- from what I've heard he is a well respected and long-standing member of the community -- however, there are quick messenger services in this town, and I can't understand how a short note could be so difficult, unless something terribly harsh has happened. In this case, it is my opinion that
the baron should give up his ring, being unable to fulfill his resposibilities of wearing it, and I be returned my peer wins. Otherwise, I can't help but feel I've been jerked around, and therefore feel that a punishment would be in order -- I would rather have lost in the duel itself than be handed such disrespect as being, for lack of a better term, stood up.
Also, after sleeping on it, I feel I was too hasty to speak last night, and for that I apologize. But if the decision is made that Baron Lucian be stripped of his ring as punishment, I would press my challenge and request that I be tested for the right to bear it.
One final comment, although I do not intend to push the vote one way or the other in giving it. If Lucian's failure to appear is just shrugged off and the challenge rescheduled, unlike the many that have occured in the past, I, being a relative newcomer to the duels, can only wonder how other folks new to the arena will see themselves in the eyes of the veterans.
That is all, and I appreciate your time and commitment.
Deluthan Ev'rt
-----
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From: valmion@aol.com (Valmion)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:46:22 EDT
>> But if the decision is made that Baron Lucian be stripped of his ring as punishment, I would press my challenge and request that I be tested for the right to bear it. <<
Good sir, should Lucian be stripped of his ring, your test is already set. It's called the next Warlord's Tournament. To have Lucian stripped of his ring and then you meet any other opponent for the right to wear it would be unacceptable. For there is no precedence for that scenerio and there should never be one.
Valmion
Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:46:22 EDT
>> But if the decision is made that Baron Lucian be stripped of his ring as punishment, I would press my challenge and request that I be tested for the right to bear it. <<
Good sir, should Lucian be stripped of his ring, your test is already set. It's called the next Warlord's Tournament. To have Lucian stripped of his ring and then you meet any other opponent for the right to wear it would be unacceptable. For there is no precedence for that scenerio and there should never be one.
Valmion
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:51:32 EDT
>>To have Lucian stripped of his ring and then you meet any other opponent for the right to wear it would be unacceptable. For there is no precedence for that scenerio and there should never be one.<<
Actually, the Barons' Council has appointed other Barons to duel challengers in the place of a Baron ruled to be in forfeit before on more than a few occasions. Ajay Bird dueled Darkness's challengers after Darkness was found in forfeit, and G'nort was chosen to duel Evan Faline in place of Zen after Zen was declared in forfeit. I am sure there are other occasions as well.
That doesn't, necessarily, make it right or justified. However, the precedent exists.
Percy
Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:51:32 EDT
>>To have Lucian stripped of his ring and then you meet any other opponent for the right to wear it would be unacceptable. For there is no precedence for that scenerio and there should never be one.<<
Actually, the Barons' Council has appointed other Barons to duel challengers in the place of a Baron ruled to be in forfeit before on more than a few occasions. Ajay Bird dueled Darkness's challengers after Darkness was found in forfeit, and G'nort was chosen to duel Evan Faline in place of Zen after Zen was declared in forfeit. I am sure there are other occasions as well.
That doesn't, necessarily, make it right or justified. However, the precedent exists.
Percy
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From: dreystarke@aol.com (DreyStarke)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:59:02 EDT
>That doesn't, necessarily, make it right or justified. However, the precedent
>exists.
Although it happened, Deluthan challenged Lucian.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:59:02 EDT
>That doesn't, necessarily, make it right or justified. However, the precedent
>exists.
Although it happened, Deluthan challenged Lucian.
- Drey D'erest Sanchez Starke
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From: sidarthae@aol.com (Sidartha E)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 21:07:33 EDT
>>Well, Sid, when Dalamar failed to show, I suggested a rematch. Yet you think that a rematch is not so much of a penalty as the censure?<<
No, because a rematch would have been an impartial test of skill, rather than punishment. If he lost, it would have been out of the work of his own hand, rather than being punished for attending the funeral of his father. I, too, had I the political power, would have asked for a rematch.
Thing is, there is no difference in my eyes between Dal missing a match and Lucian missing a match. I truly don't wish to see Lucian punished unless he was simply being irresponsible, which I doubt, knowing him, but I do wish to see a bit of consistancy in the rulings of the Council.
~Sidartha
Date: 10 Aug 1999 21:07:33 EDT
>>Well, Sid, when Dalamar failed to show, I suggested a rematch. Yet you think that a rematch is not so much of a penalty as the censure?<<
No, because a rematch would have been an impartial test of skill, rather than punishment. If he lost, it would have been out of the work of his own hand, rather than being punished for attending the funeral of his father. I, too, had I the political power, would have asked for a rematch.
Thing is, there is no difference in my eyes between Dal missing a match and Lucian missing a match. I truly don't wish to see Lucian punished unless he was simply being irresponsible, which I doubt, knowing him, but I do wish to see a bit of consistancy in the rulings of the Council.
~Sidartha
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From: deluthan@aol.com (Deluthan)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 21:17:59 EDT
>Good sir, should Lucian be stripped of his ring, your test is already set.
>It's called the next Warlord's Tournament. To have Lucian stripped of his
>ring and then you meet any other opponent for the right to wear it would be
>unacceptable. For there is no precedence for that scenerio and there should
>never be one.
>
>Valmion
Your point is well taken, sir, however I question the need to suffer through a warlord tourney after I have given it my all to collect these peer wins, wins I have sacrificed for a chance at wearing the ring. I made a decision, and I wish to follow through with it rather than be given the consolation prize of a free challenge to a baron of my choice -- a decision I do not wish to make again any time soon, because with each one comes a new set of
baggage I'd rather not carry.
Del
Date: 10 Aug 1999 21:17:59 EDT
>Good sir, should Lucian be stripped of his ring, your test is already set.
>It's called the next Warlord's Tournament. To have Lucian stripped of his
>ring and then you meet any other opponent for the right to wear it would be
>unacceptable. For there is no precedence for that scenerio and there should
>never be one.
>
>Valmion
Your point is well taken, sir, however I question the need to suffer through a warlord tourney after I have given it my all to collect these peer wins, wins I have sacrificed for a chance at wearing the ring. I made a decision, and I wish to follow through with it rather than be given the consolation prize of a free challenge to a baron of my choice -- a decision I do not wish to make again any time soon, because with each one comes a new set of
baggage I'd rather not carry.
Del
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From: zenblack@aol.com (Zen Black)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 21:18:44 EDT
"Thing is, there is no difference in my eyes between Dal missing a match and Lucian missing a match. I truly don't wish to see Lucian punished unless he was simply being irresponsible, which I doubt, knowing him, but I do wish to see a bit of consistancy in the rulings of the Council."
Thing is... to my knowledge the Dalamar incident is the only one where the party who failed to show was not stripped of challenge or ring. So it is actually inconsistent with the rest of the Council's rulings.
Date: 10 Aug 1999 21:18:44 EDT
"Thing is, there is no difference in my eyes between Dal missing a match and Lucian missing a match. I truly don't wish to see Lucian punished unless he was simply being irresponsible, which I doubt, knowing him, but I do wish to see a bit of consistancy in the rulings of the Council."
Thing is... to my knowledge the Dalamar incident is the only one where the party who failed to show was not stripped of challenge or ring. So it is actually inconsistent with the rest of the Council's rulings.
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From: simini@aol.com (Simini)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 23:14:45 EDT
Jeff,
I simply don't agree with you, and I respond to just about everything you wrote with the same line from my previous post: "Within the issue of missing a Challenge, every case is unique, and what has gone before should provide nothing more than a guideline to the current case." I can think of no other way to explain my difference of thought in this matter.
Simini, da council's "purpose" is ta rule when da situation is unclear. Many a challenge have been ruled in forfeit by Goldendust or Drakewyn without aid from da council. Yer statement assumes our current situation is much different from all previous forfeited challenges, and needs a much different solution.
The Council's purpose is clearly stated in the Rules. "A Baron's Council shall be convened in the occurrence of a Baron or the Overlord retiring while a challenge is pending or in the case of a forfeit."
My statement assumes that ALL of these situations are different, and should be handled accordingly. At no time do I imply that this case is "much different from all previous forfeited challenges."
With all due respect to the previous Councils, I do not care how previous forfeits were handled. I will handle this situation as the individual case that it is, looking to the past for guidance and nothing more.
Deluthan,
While it is true that this realm has a fair messenger system, we do not know whether Lucian is *in* this system, or even capable of sending a messenger. As you stated, "something harsh" may have happened. If that is so, I suggest we wait until we discover what that "something harsh" is before determining him "unable to fulfill his responsibilities of wearing it." I believe that is part of what the Council would be asked to decide, in that situation.
Until we hear from the Baron Lucian - or until enough time has passed that the higher officials ask the Council to make a decision without Lucian's input - I see no point in making any further public statements on the topic.
With regard,
~ Simini
Date: 10 Aug 1999 23:14:45 EDT
Jeff,
I simply don't agree with you, and I respond to just about everything you wrote with the same line from my previous post: "Within the issue of missing a Challenge, every case is unique, and what has gone before should provide nothing more than a guideline to the current case." I can think of no other way to explain my difference of thought in this matter.
Simini, da council's "purpose" is ta rule when da situation is unclear. Many a challenge have been ruled in forfeit by Goldendust or Drakewyn without aid from da council. Yer statement assumes our current situation is much different from all previous forfeited challenges, and needs a much different solution.
The Council's purpose is clearly stated in the Rules. "A Baron's Council shall be convened in the occurrence of a Baron or the Overlord retiring while a challenge is pending or in the case of a forfeit."
My statement assumes that ALL of these situations are different, and should be handled accordingly. At no time do I imply that this case is "much different from all previous forfeited challenges."
With all due respect to the previous Councils, I do not care how previous forfeits were handled. I will handle this situation as the individual case that it is, looking to the past for guidance and nothing more.
Deluthan,
While it is true that this realm has a fair messenger system, we do not know whether Lucian is *in* this system, or even capable of sending a messenger. As you stated, "something harsh" may have happened. If that is so, I suggest we wait until we discover what that "something harsh" is before determining him "unable to fulfill his responsibilities of wearing it." I believe that is part of what the Council would be asked to decide, in that situation.
Until we hear from the Baron Lucian - or until enough time has passed that the higher officials ask the Council to make a decision without Lucian's input - I see no point in making any further public statements on the topic.
With regard,
~ Simini