From: lordgeraid@aol.com (LordGeraId)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 23:34:02 EDT
I applaud the ability of this group to dissect this mishap to the smallest details of codes, rules and ethics without progress on the matter.
The matter is not in the hands of the public. The decision will be made by a semi-structured group of higher ranked duelists without teachings of protocol.
Yet posted hostile feelings and strict minded journalist of rules are as abundant as insects in the summer. I must wonder, are people's lives so bankrupt that they result to pile a stack of madness over an issue they have no control over?
If the instance occurs where the supervisior of the sport makes the final ruling, then you should be thankful that knowledable man shall make the final ruling.
Kings make decisions. Councils debate. The public wastes time.
~Lord Tägtkrein
Letter to the Council regarding the Second
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From: rlupton@aol.com (RLupton)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 23:37:07 EDT
If a precedent is decidedly the wrong thing to do, why use it again?
If every situation were the same, we'd have no Council. No cut and dry. No precedent. Look to each case individually.
On a more blunt note: Grow some creativity, think for yourself, and come up with your own solution.
~ L
Date: 10 Aug 1999 23:37:07 EDT
If a precedent is decidedly the wrong thing to do, why use it again?
If every situation were the same, we'd have no Council. No cut and dry. No precedent. Look to each case individually.
On a more blunt note: Grow some creativity, think for yourself, and come up with your own solution.
~ L
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From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 23:48:38 EDT
:::Blinks::: I...agree...with Lupton.
::runs off screaming::
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Former Baron of the Sixth
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
The Llama-ask Huma
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"
Date: 10 Aug 1999 23:48:38 EDT
:::Blinks::: I...agree...with Lupton.
::runs off screaming::
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Former Baron of the Sixth
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
The Llama-ask Huma
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"
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From: simini@aol.com (Simini)
Date: 10 Aug 1999 23:57:30 EDT
::realizing something, she quickly adds a note to the bottom of her last missive, chuckling softly::
Addendum: The last line was meant to say that *I*, for now, will no longer make public statements on this topic. It was in no way directed toward Deluthan or anyone else.
My thanks!
Date: 10 Aug 1999 23:57:30 EDT
::realizing something, she quickly adds a note to the bottom of her last missive, chuckling softly::
Addendum: The last line was meant to say that *I*, for now, will no longer make public statements on this topic. It was in no way directed toward Deluthan or anyone else.
My thanks!
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 01:10:09 EDT
Lupton,
Its quite odd ya are so in favor of creativity now dat yer woman is supporting such. Yet when we conviened ta rule in Elijah's case ya weren't against citing previous challengers with invalid peer wins who had deir challenges null and void. Perhaps you, yourself didn't cite anyone but ya sure were on da side of da barons who did; myself being one.
I have nothin' against defendin' yer woman, I do it all da time, I just hope dat no one is fooled inta believin' ya are a champion against using precidence in favor of creativity.
~J
Date: 11 Aug 1999 01:10:09 EDT
Lupton,
Its quite odd ya are so in favor of creativity now dat yer woman is supporting such. Yet when we conviened ta rule in Elijah's case ya weren't against citing previous challengers with invalid peer wins who had deir challenges null and void. Perhaps you, yourself didn't cite anyone but ya sure were on da side of da barons who did; myself being one.
I have nothin' against defendin' yer woman, I do it all da time, I just hope dat no one is fooled inta believin' ya are a champion against using precidence in favor of creativity.
~J
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 01:38:51 EDT
>> I have nothin' against defendin' yer woman, I do it all da time, I just hope dat no one is fooled inta believin' ya are a champion against using precidence in favor of creativity.<<
Ouch.
Jeff, I have to admit I somewhat take exception to such a description of Simini. Regardless of her relationship with Lupton, which I do not know enough about to make specific comment on, she is an individual of definite merit and no little intellect. As such, she deserves better than to be referred to in such a general manner as 'Lupton's woman'.
You shouldn't allow your dislike of Lupton to color your references to his friends. I don't like Morgan, but I don't give disrespectful labels to her friends because they are her friends.
What is more Jeff, it has recently been growing more and more difficult to tell your posts from those of Lupton. Or perhaps those of Huma, Elijah, or Jonalyn. Are we a tad bitter? If so, I hope that this venting of bile may help you solve the problem. I doubt it though.
Finally, I have to question your stance on this issue. You said several times during Dalamar's reign that your loyalty to your friends was more important to you than any lesser issues, and that such loyalty was one of the cornerstones of your idea of honor. If that is so, why put the rules above a friend now after always putting friends above the rules before? Are you really that bitter?
Percy
Date: 11 Aug 1999 01:38:51 EDT
>> I have nothin' against defendin' yer woman, I do it all da time, I just hope dat no one is fooled inta believin' ya are a champion against using precidence in favor of creativity.<<
Ouch.
Jeff, I have to admit I somewhat take exception to such a description of Simini. Regardless of her relationship with Lupton, which I do not know enough about to make specific comment on, she is an individual of definite merit and no little intellect. As such, she deserves better than to be referred to in such a general manner as 'Lupton's woman'.
You shouldn't allow your dislike of Lupton to color your references to his friends. I don't like Morgan, but I don't give disrespectful labels to her friends because they are her friends.
What is more Jeff, it has recently been growing more and more difficult to tell your posts from those of Lupton. Or perhaps those of Huma, Elijah, or Jonalyn. Are we a tad bitter? If so, I hope that this venting of bile may help you solve the problem. I doubt it though.
Finally, I have to question your stance on this issue. You said several times during Dalamar's reign that your loyalty to your friends was more important to you than any lesser issues, and that such loyalty was one of the cornerstones of your idea of honor. If that is so, why put the rules above a friend now after always putting friends above the rules before? Are you really that bitter?
Percy
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From: joaknshld@aol.com (J Oaknshld)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 02:47:50 EDT
A few points since you are so very misguided Percy. First off, I don't hate Lupton, in fact we have become good friends who respect each other quite a bit. If you remember correctly I was his second not long ago. However, I find his post a bit odd given the nature of his stance in the last baronial debate. Secondly, I did not insult Simini or demean her in any way. When I responded to Simini I did so respectfully.
When I responded to Lupton, I referred to his woman as his woman. If you did not know Lupton and Simini were together, now you do.
Lastly, I find no comparison between Dalamar and Lucian, because da titles of each are entirely different. Many know how vehemently I oppose barons hiding behind da Overlord, but da same people know I have championed da OL before and know I do not stand against da ToW. I suppose *you* do not separate da titles of Overlord and Baron. I, however, do. Also, I defeated Huma in a match which was fer all intense purposes da test of worthiness. In
fact, I put my ring on da line specifically ta stop Dalamar from forfeiting. If Zen Rising stepped forward against Deluthan and won, I would have no problem supporting Lucian's continued reign. I had a valid reason ta believe Dalamar should remain OL, and while I love Lucian, he had no champion step forward fer him.
Imply I'm a hypocrite all ya want, but when it comes down ta it, yer just plain wrong.
~J
Date: 11 Aug 1999 02:47:50 EDT
A few points since you are so very misguided Percy. First off, I don't hate Lupton, in fact we have become good friends who respect each other quite a bit. If you remember correctly I was his second not long ago. However, I find his post a bit odd given the nature of his stance in the last baronial debate. Secondly, I did not insult Simini or demean her in any way. When I responded to Simini I did so respectfully.
When I responded to Lupton, I referred to his woman as his woman. If you did not know Lupton and Simini were together, now you do.
Lastly, I find no comparison between Dalamar and Lucian, because da titles of each are entirely different. Many know how vehemently I oppose barons hiding behind da Overlord, but da same people know I have championed da OL before and know I do not stand against da ToW. I suppose *you* do not separate da titles of Overlord and Baron. I, however, do. Also, I defeated Huma in a match which was fer all intense purposes da test of worthiness. In
fact, I put my ring on da line specifically ta stop Dalamar from forfeiting. If Zen Rising stepped forward against Deluthan and won, I would have no problem supporting Lucian's continued reign. I had a valid reason ta believe Dalamar should remain OL, and while I love Lucian, he had no champion step forward fer him.
Imply I'm a hypocrite all ya want, but when it comes down ta it, yer just plain wrong.
~J
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From: leducblanc@aol.com (LeDucBlanc)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 03:28:25 EDT
>>Also, I defeated Huma in a match which was fer all intense purposes da test of worthiness.<<
Yet it wasn't the Test of Worthiness. Why not? Because Dalamar wasn't there to make it the Tes of Worthiness officially. It doesn't matter if he *would* have Tested Huma, and it doesn't matter if you would have been his choice. I concede that he probably would have and you probably would have. But the fact is we never got a chance to know. Dalamar didn't show and then other people jumped to all make things go their way. In a less than honest
fashion.
>>I had a valid reason ta believe Dalamar should remain OL, and while I love Lucian, he had no champion step forward fer him.<<
So, while it is fine for other people to manipulate the rules so that Dalamar kept the crown, it is wrong for anyone to even consider that Lucian should keep his ring? Because Dal had someone to fight for him and Lucian did not? I think that it takes more than an illegal match to prevent a forfeit from happening. And I don't see how lack of an illegal match should create a forfeit.
I, personally, haven't yet formed an opinion one way or the other. Lucian's explanation, however, strikes me as at least as valid as most others I have seen, and more valid than many. Certainly as valid as Dalamar's. I don't see that the lack of an illegal duel makes a difference.
>>Imply I'm a hypocrite all ya want, but when it comes down ta it, yer just plain wrong.<<
Was I implying it? I didn't mean to be so subtle. I meant to come right out and say it. You have been behaving badly for some time now, lashing out in many of your posts, even before your retirement. Bitterness is understandable, and I am sorry if you are feeling badly. I just hope all this lashing out makes you feel better.
Percy
Date: 11 Aug 1999 03:28:25 EDT
>>Also, I defeated Huma in a match which was fer all intense purposes da test of worthiness.<<
Yet it wasn't the Test of Worthiness. Why not? Because Dalamar wasn't there to make it the Tes of Worthiness officially. It doesn't matter if he *would* have Tested Huma, and it doesn't matter if you would have been his choice. I concede that he probably would have and you probably would have. But the fact is we never got a chance to know. Dalamar didn't show and then other people jumped to all make things go their way. In a less than honest
fashion.
>>I had a valid reason ta believe Dalamar should remain OL, and while I love Lucian, he had no champion step forward fer him.<<
So, while it is fine for other people to manipulate the rules so that Dalamar kept the crown, it is wrong for anyone to even consider that Lucian should keep his ring? Because Dal had someone to fight for him and Lucian did not? I think that it takes more than an illegal match to prevent a forfeit from happening. And I don't see how lack of an illegal match should create a forfeit.
I, personally, haven't yet formed an opinion one way or the other. Lucian's explanation, however, strikes me as at least as valid as most others I have seen, and more valid than many. Certainly as valid as Dalamar's. I don't see that the lack of an illegal duel makes a difference.
>>Imply I'm a hypocrite all ya want, but when it comes down ta it, yer just plain wrong.<<
Was I implying it? I didn't mean to be so subtle. I meant to come right out and say it. You have been behaving badly for some time now, lashing out in many of your posts, even before your retirement. Bitterness is understandable, and I am sorry if you are feeling badly. I just hope all this lashing out makes you feel better.
Percy
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From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 03:45:14 EDT
I will say this, and only this:
Deluthan's manner of handling this whole situation, inasfar as asking for provisions such as the ring not going to Tourney and such....proves what my projection of him right.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Former Baron of the Sixth
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
The Llama-ask Huma
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"
Date: 11 Aug 1999 03:45:14 EDT
I will say this, and only this:
Deluthan's manner of handling this whole situation, inasfar as asking for provisions such as the ring not going to Tourney and such....proves what my projection of him right.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Former Baron of the Sixth
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
The Llama-ask Huma
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"
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From: karnafexx@aol.com (Karnafexx)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 04:03:13 EDT
<<Thing is... to my knowledge the Dalamar incident is the only one where the party who failed to show was not stripped of challenge or ring. So it is actually inconsistent with the rest of the Council's rulings.>>
Adeena Maeax, the Red Zealot failed to appear for a challenge of hers due to an emergency. However, her apponent was adult enough to acceot it and a rematch was set post haste.
Question:
If Lucian had a second, why didn't this second step forth and defend the ring? Are people so dense as to the concept of a second? If the person challenged or challenging does not show then the second should and, I think, MUST step in and fight the duel.
I feel a ruling should be made on this point.
Lastly:
If Lucian is stripped of the ring, put it in the next warlords tournament but let the challenger keep his peer wins. If he chooses to be in the tournament then he will effectively have two chances to become baron of that ring.
If he doesn't like that, he can suck eggs.
BRK
Date: 11 Aug 1999 04:03:13 EDT
<<Thing is... to my knowledge the Dalamar incident is the only one where the party who failed to show was not stripped of challenge or ring. So it is actually inconsistent with the rest of the Council's rulings.>>
Adeena Maeax, the Red Zealot failed to appear for a challenge of hers due to an emergency. However, her apponent was adult enough to acceot it and a rematch was set post haste.
Question:
If Lucian had a second, why didn't this second step forth and defend the ring? Are people so dense as to the concept of a second? If the person challenged or challenging does not show then the second should and, I think, MUST step in and fight the duel.
I feel a ruling should be made on this point.
Lastly:
If Lucian is stripped of the ring, put it in the next warlords tournament but let the challenger keep his peer wins. If he chooses to be in the tournament then he will effectively have two chances to become baron of that ring.
If he doesn't like that, he can suck eggs.
BRK
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From: casmaxim@aol.com (Cas Maxim)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 04:07:35 EDT
Well said Billy.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Former Baron of the Sixth
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
The Llama-ask Huma
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"
Date: 11 Aug 1999 04:07:35 EDT
Well said Billy.
Cassius Gaius Maximius
Laylla's husband.
Roman pretorian
Warlord in DoS
Former Baron of the Sixth
Mage in DoM
Member of HDT
The Llama-ask Huma
"I am an honorable man, but to duel me is not a pleasant experience, if only for the pain"
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 06:09:41 EDT
Reading the mess of posts, Drake finds herself terribly glad that now that she's explained to the Council exactly what she saw and what she did on the night in question, she has absolutely nothing more to do with this until the matter is decided. "I just hope both Zaf and Steve show up on time tomorrow night." Shrugging, she continues on reading other posts and missives.
Date: 11 Aug 1999 06:09:41 EDT
Reading the mess of posts, Drake finds herself terribly glad that now that she's explained to the Council exactly what she saw and what she did on the night in question, she has absolutely nothing more to do with this until the matter is decided. "I just hope both Zaf and Steve show up on time tomorrow night." Shrugging, she continues on reading other posts and missives.
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From: gnrtdrgoon@aol.com (GnrtDrgoon)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 06:11:43 EDT
Cases which are mentioned.
Ajay stood in for Darkness when Darkness was forfeit of his title against Tom and Myself.
Why was Darkness in forfiet?
Darkness was ruled in forfiet because it waas the second time in which he had to defend his title and which he completely failed to show.
I stood in for Zen against Evan Faline when Zen was ruled in forfiet of his title.
Why was Zen in forfiet?
Because he has on numerous occasions simply disappeared from the realms, unable to reply, respond, or set dates for his challenge match defenses.
Dalamar never missed a match before that. Lucian has never missed a match before this.
I could likely go on, but these are some quick references.
Billy Ray Karnafexx:
You ask why the second didn't step forward?
To my understanding, For a persons Second step in and duel the match, it has to have already been started. E.G Lucian would have had to duel at least one round before whomever his second was could take over due to a sudden disappearance of Lucian.
To my knowledge, only one such event has taken place, that of Ellisa's defense to That Slider fellow, in which Slider disappeared somewhere along the match and Dave Strosnider stepped in and completed it.
*G*
Date: 11 Aug 1999 06:11:43 EDT
Cases which are mentioned.
Ajay stood in for Darkness when Darkness was forfeit of his title against Tom and Myself.
Why was Darkness in forfiet?
Darkness was ruled in forfiet because it waas the second time in which he had to defend his title and which he completely failed to show.
I stood in for Zen against Evan Faline when Zen was ruled in forfiet of his title.
Why was Zen in forfiet?
Because he has on numerous occasions simply disappeared from the realms, unable to reply, respond, or set dates for his challenge match defenses.
Dalamar never missed a match before that. Lucian has never missed a match before this.
I could likely go on, but these are some quick references.
Billy Ray Karnafexx:
You ask why the second didn't step forward?
To my understanding, For a persons Second step in and duel the match, it has to have already been started. E.G Lucian would have had to duel at least one round before whomever his second was could take over due to a sudden disappearance of Lucian.
To my knowledge, only one such event has taken place, that of Ellisa's defense to That Slider fellow, in which Slider disappeared somewhere along the match and Dave Strosnider stepped in and completed it.
*G*
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From: drakewyni@aol.com (Drakewyn I)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 07:16:03 EDT
Side note:
If the Baron had a second, I was not made aware of the fact and no one stepped forward declaring themselves such.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
Date: 11 Aug 1999 07:16:03 EDT
Side note:
If the Baron had a second, I was not made aware of the fact and no one stepped forward declaring themselves such.
Lady Drake, aka the Gryphon.
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From: deluthan@aol.com (Deluthan)
Date: 11 Aug 1999 13:42:57 EDT
>....proves what my projection of him right.
>
I'd hope no one gave this a second thought, whatever it is he said.
Date: 11 Aug 1999 13:42:57 EDT
>....proves what my projection of him right.
>
I'd hope no one gave this a second thought, whatever it is he said.